Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[janax]

Heh, no I didn't. I was making a point about greed

I'm sure the greedy members of OV, RoK, GOD, VE, FOK, Athens, ETC, will all make a TIDY profit on 8 whole billion. Because of course there is no way their top 20 nations would have lost that much alone in 2 months of nuclear war. I'm sure the thousands of other nations took no damage at all, so this will pad their pocketbooks quite nicely.

All hail the Purple Colony. We get it, NPO is all you guys worry about, and you are quite concerned that the shark to your remora may be made extinct. Give it a rest.

It's a sad day when between you and AlterEgo, I now come to think of Valhalla as the most rational purple alliance between the 3 of you.

[TECUMSEH]

I never thought I'd see the day where an offer of 300,000 tech and $8 Billion in reparations was considered an "insult." Stunning. Karma has truly transformed Bob.

[James Wilson]

I rather become the next FAN than be enslaved to Karma. It's one thing to pay reparations, it's another to take reps to a higher level in which it's borderline unethical.

We all play a game here and I'm probably not the only one who feels that destroying the game for others is wrong. I don't care about past actions or how things have played out involving my alliance, because quite frankly that shouldn't be a reason to break basic ethical code. Why make the same mistake as thy enemy?

Am I asking for sympathy? Damn right I am, but I'm in no way asking for white peace or lenient terms. What I'm asking for are reasonable, ethical terms.

I personally do not feel that Karma as a group can do that. It's all too apparent that there's a Karma vowing change and a Karma vowing retribution.

Ok, how many times do we have to explain what Karma means?!?!?! Karma does not mean we will be all willy nilly and let you get off scott free. Hell no, your going to pay. You may not think its fair, but tell that to GATO, FAN, GPA, and all the other alliances you treated like !@#$! You took away GATO's sovereignty, you turned Legion into lapdogs, You warred FAN for 2 years.

You want sympathy? Get the hell outta here.

[NoFish]

I never thought I'd see the day where an offer of 300,000 tech and $8 Billion in reparations was considered an "insult." Stunning. Karma has truly transformed Bob.

I get the feeling you may be intentionally misunderstanding me. It's an insult as a counter-offer to 300k tech, 7b, 14 weeks of war for all peace mode nations, and limiting the tech reps to being paid by nations with more than 1k of it. It appears as though they're trying to buy their way out of damage.

[NEWBert]

I don't have the time to sit and quote/reply to each above poster (sorry, I'm at work) but to respond in bulk, the NPO has been at the center due to our size and voice.

I'll repeat though, a desire for retribution and negative past actions do not justify breaking one's basic ethical standards in present time. Ethical standards are quite simply what one differentiates as right and wrong. Addressing SirDog, there's no formula. Everyone will view each situation differently.

All I'm saying is that the terms handed to the NPO should be of that in which all of Karma are content with. For the bigger players in Karma, down the road you'll essentially be labeled on handing out these terms, even if you've played a back seat role. You're still a representative.

Personally I don't find enslaving an alliance post-war to be ethical. As I stated in an earlier post, I don't care about my alliance's past actions. Perhaps they weren't appropriate, but that shouldn't be reason to go against your morals.

To add to the poor analogies and comparisons in this thread, think of it like this. If I've spent my life as a drug addict and I get caught robbing a bank, is that reason for the death penalty? Do my past actions give my present one a reason for an unethical punishment?

Edited June 15, 2009 by NEWBert

[Branimir]

They can do whatever the hell they want to do, and with any justification, regardless of "ethics" or "morals".

But you see, when one calls his revenge coalition of alliances seeking retribution (nothing wrong with that) "karma" (completely whoring the term in that way), to sound more self righteous then Pope and from the start starts riding that moral high ground with different mantras like- "we will not impose draconian terms, we are building a different world-- we are "better" then that", and the rest of self righteous dribble we had the privilege to read in the past two months turning this war intentionally largely into war of "morals" and "ethics" to galvanize the masses, then when one actually drops its mask and comes out clean in his intentions and motivations in the process "forgetting" about the "moralities" he spouted not so long ago because they are inconvenient now--- we get to call them out.

Just the way it works really.

So yes, now its pure realpolitik-ing (nothing wrong with that), now we justify totally annihilating an alliance who already lost 16 mil NS with a new mantra how we want to cripple its military potential (like that potential is not already crippled and there is no 80 mil coalition watching over us).

OOC: I am interested to see will this hit 200 pages lol

[ChairmanHal]

We were preparing for a war, not planning it. I'm sure you understand the difference, but in case anyone else misses it...

We had seen NPO's MO over the years and expected that they would attack us, or someone close to us to lure us into a war. We did not want to get rolled, so we made preparations out of self-defense. Acting as though NPO was somehow lured into a trap is just plain false - when this all started we weren't even sure we'd win.

Unless of course, GOD is just a pawn too, I suppose, in this grand scheme orchestrated by... I don't know. Hoo?

Sarcasm and bad pun noted.

Stick with that story. Someday, someone seeing it in the Wiki might even believe it.

Of course consideration was given to a possible NPO offensive. Gramlins was the consensus target for a long time, but that never materialized. Ragnarok thought it might become a Q target once the Hoo-Grinch logs were revealed.

There was ALWAYS the possibility along the way that the plot would be revealed and that NPO would spring into action. It did not happen, at least the NPO springing into action part. The fact it did not happen meant that Karma had longer to crystallize and plan offensive operations.

Sidenote: I get tired of people telling me what I saw as though if they say it long enough, I'll be convinced that there are 3 lights instead of 4. Enough.

[mykep]

All I'm saying is that the terms handed to the NPO should be of that in which all of Karma are content with.

Disband then.

[zzzptm]

Karma will build the shinier, happier world AFTER NPO is eliminated.

How's that for the hypocrisy parsers? Still no good?

Well, quit whining then and people will quit telling you to quit whining.

[Freelancer]

OOC: I am interested to see will this hit 200 pages lol

Laughably I was thinking the same thing, although something did occur to me while reading the last 20 pages.

If by some miracle Pacifica gains peace and 2 years from now we look back at this as we have so many times with GW1, will Vlad somehow spin this as a victory for Pacifica, cause I can't wait to read that.

[HellAngel]

Of course consideration was given to a possible NPO offensive. Gramlins was the consensus target for a long time, but that never materialized.

Heh, funny. In which context if i may ask?

[TECUMSEH]

I get the feeling you may be intentionally misunderstanding me. It's an insult as a counter-offer to 300k tech, 7b, 14 weeks of war for all peace mode nations, and limiting the tech reps to being paid by nations with more than 1k of it. It appears as though they're trying to buy their way out of damage.

Additional context duly noted. Still, 300K tech + $8B reps is an "insult[ing]" counteroffer. As I said, I'm stunned and it doesn't matter what the original offer was -- could have been 1B tech and 500 Trillion. The fact remains, I've seen a day on Bob where 300K tech + $8B is an an insult.

That's completely understanding you.

[Branimir]

Laughably I was thinking the same thing

OOC: When the thread broke 100 pages, I still thought, nah will not hit 200, but wow its getting there.

Now for trivia.

If by some miracle Pacifica gains peace and 2 years from now we look back at this as we have so many times with GW1, will Vlad somehow spin this as a victory for Pacifica, cause I can't wait to read that.

This is in the OP, by the Emperor,

We acknowledge that we have been defeated in this war.

The thing about GPW 1 is that Ivan with clever wording never admitted defeat in the name of the NPO, but in his own name. He is that type of a guy, which would do that like that. That opens the door for many things later on, in this case though I really don't know what do you want more.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Branimir

[Jack Diorno]

The thing about GPW 1 is that Ivan with clever wording never admitted defeat in the name of the NPO, but in his own name. He is that type of a guy, which would do that like that. That opens the door for many things later on, in this case though I really don't know what do you want more.

Skipping past everything else you said because this is just annoying.

NpO has admitted defeat in that war already, so following your logic, Ivan Moldavi the Emperor of NPO also was defeated, for NPO itself to of won the war, the CoLUElation must also of been defeated.

So NpO was defeated,

Ivan Moldavi was defeated,

the CoLUElation was defeated.

Everyone lost except the general membership of NPO?

with logic like this I am not surprised you are under our jackboots at the moment.

[NoFish]

Sarcasm and bad pun noted.

I didn't actually intend that, wow. That's a really bad pun.

Stick with that story. Someday, someone seeing it in the Wiki might even believe it.

Of course consideration was given to a possible NPO offensive. Gramlins was the consensus target for a long time, but that never materialized. Ragnarok thought it might become a Q target once the Hoo-Grinch logs were revealed.

Right, I agree with you so far...

There was ALWAYS the possibility along the way that the plot would be revealed and that NPO would spring into action. It did not happen, at least the NPO springing into action part. The fact it did not happen meant that Karma had longer to crystallize and plan offensive operations.

wat.

There Were No Plans For Offensive Operations. We're even sure we could win a defensive war, much less an aggressive one. All we were doing was preparing for the NPO curbstomp, and from the way things turned out I'd say it's a damned good thing we did.

Sidenote: I get tired of people telling me what I saw as though if they say it long enough, I'll be convinced that there are 3 lights instead of 4. Enough.

The thing is Hal, I only saw three lights in all the same places you saw four. One of us needs their vision checked and I'd bet a whole lot more people only saw three as well.

[Das Girl]

@ Sir Sci,

You sir, have me at a disadvantage, because there are many things I’d like to say but cannot. I will say this however. I’m sure you’re aware that some while ago, many of the “Old Guard” as you put it, got together and offered their advice for the reformation of GATO. They were tired of seeing it flounder around as an impotent giant. Their advice was ignored. So before you start invoking the names of the Old Guard, ask yourself what they would think of the GATO of today. You seem to feel that they would approve. I’m not so sure that’s a valid statement/assumption.

@ Ragashingo,

In addition to the remarks above, let me add this. GATO tried very hard to mend relations with the NPO before the GATO-1V, and their reward was to be put under a viceroy for a spurious CB. A CB, I might add, which at its heart involved the OOC persecution of the individual behind the IC persona known as Chris_Kaos, otherwise known as EZI, a policy which Moo denied ever practicing in the OP. That GATO would accept a PIAT after said occupation comes as no great surprise for a number of reasons. That doesn't change the fact that I consider it an unfortunate act.

Also, on the one hand you are downplaying said PIAT, while simultaneously making it sound as if all is now peace and light between the two alliances. So which is it? As I mentioned before, the fact that das girl waited until about 2 weeks ago to return to GATO speaks volumes, as does the fact that someone like BarbulaM1 would pen lines such as these below:

If someone as diplomatic as BarbulaM1 is willing to voice these thoughts on the OWF, it makes me wonder what thoughts remain unvoiced in the minds of many other GATOans.

tl;dr

Yes, the generation of the Old Guard was an important part of GATO. But so were the later generations that followed – some of whose legacy, contributions and history now seem to have been expunged. That is the point I was trying to make.

Edit. Of course the same point also applies to the Legion. And here I'll reference a post made by soccerbum879 ITT:

Yes, there are reasons that I waited for my return to GATO. They are not for this thread however. If you have questions on that, I would be glad to answer them privately or in a thread more relevant to the subject. Yes, a part of it had to do with NPO's obvious ill-feelings that they had for me in the past in GATO. Now having spent quite some time out of GATO I would hope that they realize (as a former ally of them) I am not the evil NPO hating person that they thought I was and the past grudges would be just that... past.

This thread is about the NPO refusing terms and I don't blame them for doing so.

[Freelancer]

The thing about GPW 1 is that Ivan with clever wording never admitted defeat in the name of the NPO, but in his own name. He is that type of a guy, which would do that like that. That opens the door for many things later on, in this case though I really don't know what do you want more.

I agree, Ivan was/is a Su Sayer (is that the word I want to use ?) It's primarily my reasoning for never getting involved with the those ongoing debates about GWI, I always think in the back of my mind whatever , however Vlad is a master of the English language and obviously the party line where a guy like me thinks to himself, How does he dream this !@#$ up, so to answer your question Yes I want more

Edited June 15, 2009 by Freelancer

[Rush Sykes]

Never enforced my $@!. I received AT LEAST 4 PM's from Pacifican nations telling me too leave peace mode or face the consequences. What choice did I have?

Its easy to say it was "never enforced." Why? Because it never HAD to be. GATO complied with the request to leave PM. Why? Because they saw FAN. And they knew the ultimated WOULD be enforced. Simply because the ploy worked and did not HAVE to be enforced, does NOT give Pacifica one inch of high-ground to spout out that "it was never enforced."

[Branimir]

Skipping past everything else you said because this is just annoying.

You shouldn't get annoyed by ancient history trivia like that. I am not even talking about that we won that war, I am just telling you of an important detail from that time which left open doors.

I am just telling you what happened then as I saw it first hand and still remember when Ivan posted that and lold when I read it understood what was said.

Its not my fault nobody from the other side pointed that detail out, lol.

Anyway, like said its history trivia now and off topic.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Branimir

[Branimir]

Yes I want more

Lol, like what?

You want what Emperor wrote mailed to you on paper or do you want a video with Moo saying we lost

Edited June 15, 2009 by Branimir

[Rush Sykes]

*ahem*

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> the other nations in peace must feel the pain the rest of the alliance suffered

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> I did not shape these terms but I believe in that strongly

What's sauce for the goose is....er....grass for the heifer?

Also, have I mentioned I got my damn letter?

I find it HILARIOUS that this has been pointed out at least 20 times in this thread...That beautiful quote from Moo.....But what I dont see....are ANY Pacificans addressing this hyp----hypoc-----what is that word again? Come on someone from Pacifica, help me out.

[Freelancer]

Lol, like what?

You want what Emperor wrote mailed to you on paper or do you want a video with Moo saying we lost

LOL, I wouldn't give Karma any idea's,. they may add that to the list of demands.

A video produced by your beloved Emperor, admitting defeat, posted on youtube for the world to admire.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Freelancer

[James Wilson]

Of course, it isn't an NPO thread without Branimir.

Long time no see!

I will enjoy watching as people pick and tear your posts apart.

[Branimir]

A video produced by your beloved Emperor, admitting defeat, posted on youtube for the world to admire.

You strike a hard barging, sir.

[shintar]

As we are "Karma", we could also simply take every single term that the NPO have issued and put it all together in a nice, organized, list and send it to them. ALL of them.