R&R-Viking Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Right now it is probably still like 80mil + against us. How is it even remotely possible for us to gain 80mil in order to beat you guys down at all? C'mon now, chin up chief. If some of us had that kind of attitude after GWIII none of us would be here right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 C'mon now, chin up chief. If some of us had that kind of attitude after GWIII none of us would be here right now. I was legion before and after GWIII thank you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R&R-Viking Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I was legion before and after GWIII thank you very much So you got tired of getting beat down and joined the winning side. Unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 So you got tired of getting beat down and joined the winning side.Unfortunate. I was MoD during the UJW in the legion so I think I know a thing about winning. I left legion after purple gate because I was part of the old guard. And eventually joined up with NPO because I wanted to try and mend the long standing grudge between the 2. I think it spoke volumes that the legion came in defense of NPO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R&R-Viking Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Yeah I was a MoD in the UJW too. Good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Glaucon Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) Actually, two wrongs do not make a right because two movements of 90 degrees in any direction turns you around and sends you backwards down the path you just traveled. Just from a different direction. Exactly what Karma's doing. I have to lol at you and Strider posting this on the same page. I'd forgotten how much y'all discuss what to say before coming out to the big boards. Edited June 14, 2009 by Zombie Glaucon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Glaucon Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 We have this thing called integrity.. and is the one thing Pacificans still have left to be proud of if anything else. Again.. John 3:16 and John 15:13. I and my brothers will gladly burn together.. would yours? Quoted for irony well above the legal limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus27 Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) Vol Navy captured the idea exactly. It is fear that is driving these negotiations. The NPO propaganda has worked and the image the NPO carefully cultivated is now backfiring against them. Most nations have heard nothing over the past 3 years except how the NPO is an unstoppable juggernaut with unlimited cash and tech that can smite whomever the leadership desires. Up until now from GW1 to this conflict, it has played out this way with the NPO and its allies destroying all possible threats and other foes for fun and profit. No one can count how many times it has been stated by the masses that the NPO can do no wrong and your either with the program or the next victim. Sure cracks have shown in this idea at some points where their partners have become the latest victims, but these small bumps in the road were soon papered over and explained away. Now this war has shown the NPO is mortal and exposed that they are in fact, mortal. The Karma forces now have the NPO in a position that they have held countless opponents. The justifications for any punishment are there just as the NPO has used past offenses of their defeated foes in imposing peace terms on the vanquished over the years. The victor determines the terms and right now the NPO has rejected the first offering as often happens. Now sure, retribution for the NPOs past acts and historical slights plays well for PR purposes, but the real reason for the terms we are seeing is fear of the future. Karma forces do not want to fight this battle again in a few months. History shows what happened between GW1, GW2, and GW3. Building a winning coalition is hard enough once, and given the diverse alliances involved without a strong binding organization, it may not happen again. When you have your opponent on the ropes, you want to eliminate them as a threat; otherwise you may find yourself on the receiving end in the future. the fear is if they don't cripple the NPO presently, all we are creating is a temporary power vacuum that the NPO may find a way to use to retain its influence and even predominance after a brief post war lull. Yes the world has changed from the GW1 and GW2 days but many of the changes have made it much easier to bounce back. Wonders now render nations able to quickly rebuild due to economic bonuses. More significantly it is childs play to replace nukes enhancing any alliances destructive power. Where a large nation prior to wonders, once beaten down, would rarely rise back to nuke range, now the Manhattan Project renders these nations to quickly rebuild arsenals once they are able to. With the NPO having 163 nations with Manhattan Projects, this can easily give them one of the largest nuclear arsenals in 20 days. With this possibly being the only chance to try and render NPO less threatening, Karma will naturally want to be careful and not squander this opportunity less they wind up suffering even more damage in later wars. Now of course this is only theoretical capability, but given the image the NPO has cultivated, it is highly believable that the moment peace is achieved the stage is set for a resurgent NPO possibly desiring to settle the score relatively quickly. Therefore terms are not about correcting past wrongs, but instead targeted to retard NPOs rebuilding and stave of a resurgent military threat for the foreseeable future. In order to do this, they will need to be large payments and occupying a majority of aid slots to minimize the internal NPO capabilities to repair the damage and potentially draconian restrictions on foreign policy or internal organization. When I saw the terms, I was honestly surprised not by their harshness, but by the relatively lax nature. Yes the payment amounts were huge but that is the only real method sap growth of a large alliance. Furthermore, I thought they were being lax with only 14 days of war. Honestly, if a nation turtles, to minimize damage even a large nation can't be crippled in only 14 days if they have had any kind of preparation, as we would expect from NPO. These terms are humiliating to NPO and I am not surprised they rejected them. However, the longer the process drags out, the further eroded their capability will be. Attrition will also hurt the NPOs rebuilding so being at war (so long as the Karma coalition can maintain it) or having large reparations payments both serve the goal of reducing the NPOs future threat. There was no foreign policy restrictions or internal modifications demanded in this peace offer Naturally these terms would be even more difficult to impose and could possibly be red herrings that we would see if Karma desired perpetual war. However, these tools are the most powerful for potentially rendering the NPO safe. Of course as the war drags on perhaps they will be unnecessary as the NPO suffers continuing losses. However I would still consider them a possible tool to use if I was crafting a peace treaty so I was a little surprised not to see something of that nature. Ultimately, it is up to the alliances involved to craft a solution and I am sure they are reexamining the state of affairs on a daily basis. The peanut galleries comments have never done anything in past wars so we shouldn't expect anything to happen here. Just sit back and wait for further developments so we can argue meaninglessly over the next stage in negotiations or the settlement. Shouting outrage or calling for blood will not change the terms or individuals thoughts on them one bit. Everyone has pretty fixed ideas on the conflict by this point so our words change nothing. I just felt like typing out a few thoughts late in this epic thread. Edited June 14, 2009 by Daedalus27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Jeeze this is still going on?Okay, well since it is I have a question to the NPO: The main qualm with the 2 weeks at 90% in war mode seems to be the fear of indefinite war. I want to know, if Karma offered the following right now would it be taken, or would you find another excuse? -Peace is declared effective immediately. All nations in peace mode at the time of this posting (a list will be made by Karma to be shared with NPO for future reference) are marked. Upon leaving peace mode, any nation on this list will be subject to 2 cycles of war, at which point they will be peaced. During this time the attacked member is to be treated as a rogue, no outside aid may be given, or any wars declared in defense of the nation. Any nation remaining in peace mode for a duration of 30 days beyond the expiration of all other terms will be absolved of this war requirement. This very clearly brings about an end to the war, solves the activity problem, and leaves no loopholes for an indefinite war. It should fix all of the issues NPO has brought up, except for their inability to pay after war. Karma has stated they are willing to renegotiate the reparations should it be deemed impossible for them to be met with the state of the alliance after the wars. Really it shouldn't be too hard to coordinate gather intel operations on the NPO given how many alliances are involved to get an accurate assessment of all warchests to see what is and is not possible. Please NPO, take these terms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Funny thread for the most part.Lots of hatred, bitterness and No U from both sides. It boils down to one thing from Karma from what I can see. Fear. Fear that Pacifica will rise like Jason or Michael and come for them someday in the future. So certain alliances want to put that off as long as possible because it's really impossible to avoid forever barring forcing NPO completely off Bob. Many aren't really taking into account that rebuilding now is VASTLY different than it was after GWI. Hell, when I started playing a couple years ago 6000 infra and 2000 tech was a HUGE nation. Now that's nothing. It's going to take NPO a looong time to pay these reps and rebuild into anything resembling the power they were. I've read some other incredible posts on here. People who literally said that if you weren't in the NPO you were on a death list. I don't remember what page that was on but it was in the last 20 or so pages. Bravo Karma/Vox etc. Painting the picture that extreme and getting a large block to believe it was a masterstroke. I've even saw people from certain "reformed" hegemony alliances posting about how evil NPO destroyed entire alliances singlehandedly. I guess they forgot they were rolling tanks in the same wars and helping Pacifica every step of the way. It's amazing to me that a 1000 nation alliance kept 29,000 other nations under the bootheel for 2 years but many people, even Pacifica's allies in the weeks leading up to the war have members who take the bait and run with it. They now seem to believe that Pacifica was actually repressing them while they won wars, stole land and tech and piled up stats in the peace and stability of Q/NPO. I guess in the end it's going to boil down to eternal war vs getting what you can while you can from Pacifica. I would personally find it the height of hilarity if the next big one breaks out while this one is going on and some of these alliances suddenly found themselves fighting each other and on two fronts, trying to enfore eternal war on NPO while defending against the hordes invading from other alliances. I do have a question to many of those that have nothing but absolute hatred of NPO. Will anything less than NPO disbanding and actually having many, if not all of current NPO gov quit the game completely satisfy you? Would that actually make you able to move on past some hurt you felt from an action 1,2 even 3+ years ago? I would honestly shake the hands of any alliances on the war front against us in TPF right now and let this epic beating go by the wayside no matter the reps/terms we're offered unless they involve disbandment/expelling members. Because if CN has one constant, we're all going to get a beating someday, this is ours. Clearly many of you have a deep hatred for some past wrong, but many have a deep hatred even though they benifitted directly from being closely allied to NPO for a long time. I guess that goes back to the masterful propaganda war Karma waged for several months before this conflict started. My final thought, this may very well be the only war in IC or OOC history where the losing party was given terms that reflected not only the ending of the conflict they were in, but every action they've ever taken in their entire existance and even some actions they weren't even wholly responsible for. :::OOC::: It's like giving Japan terms at the end of WWII for things they did 1000, 800, 500, and 300 years before as well as things they did during WWII. /:::OOC::: This post wins the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I have the max amount of replies per page going and I have 68 pages. How many is it on normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I have the max amount of replies per page going and I have 68 pages. How many is it on normal? One hundred thirty-six Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykep Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 “To show pity is felt as a sign of contempt because one has clearly ceased to be an object of fear as soon as one is pitied.” Wait, one more. “None pities him that is in the snare, who warned before, would not beware” Srsly NPO Also, what stumpy said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Yah lets force NPO to disband... Cause you know you will have 700 nations going around to many different alliances so they can get high in govt. and then take out their revenge on the other alliances. Disbandment I think is going to be a bigger problem for Karma then it would be fore NPO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
presidentpants Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) The vast majority of your alliance with any notable fighting capability is in peace mode, sitting on piles of money. The nations which have been fighting are of course the same ones that suffered damages, nice circular logic Either way, it means that they'll be crippled and irrelevant. The great majority of nations in NPO have fought, that includes large nations as well. Maybe not as many as 'should' have fought but not a huge number either. Infrastructure and technology are fleeting possessions, the strength of an alliance is described by the camaraderie of its members which remains stronger than ever. Edited June 14, 2009 by President Pants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre27 Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) Let's try something constructive here: The two weeks war for any peace mode nations is plain and simple an attempt to force large parts of Pacifica to re roll. Don't come with the argument that "the same was done to GATO" because first GATO is not at war with Pacifica and second those terms were never carried out. The hard liners in the Karma coalition need to grow up and drop that requirement. Furthermore i propose a white peace for Pacifica and payment from the Hardliners in Karma to Pacifica from 100 million for each and every page of this topic. End this cycle of violence here and now. Edited June 14, 2009 by andre27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 The two weeks war for any peace mode nations is plain and simple an attempt to force large parts of Pacifica to re roll. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesca Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 "To show pity is felt as a sign of contempt because one has clearly ceased to be an object of fear as soon as one is pitied.” This is something to bear in mind. However, it is the mindset of the cowardly. People of true worth should feel pity when it is moral to do so, not when it is likely to benefit themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 What? I have to agree, that made absolutely no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Cream rises to the top, I guess we should thank Karma for helping to remove NPO dead weight. And now Karma would like to help you remove ghosts and those who would ignore direct orders, but you refuse to thank them? How mean-spirited of you. I really don't want to put a spotlight under this topic, but posting 'De Profundis' must always go along with Dilber's 'Hello'. Hopefully the Vox koolaid hasn't gotten to everyone on these forums. You should see the logs I didn't post. Here, have a sample: <Dilbs|out> they won't win<Dilbs|out> I'll put this at my MINIMUM expectations should war break out. <Dilbs|out> 1v+tc+CDT+SF <Dilbs|out> on our side <Dilbs|out> at least. <Dilbs|out> and that's at the very least. The only thing an overly severe peace treaty will accomplish is to set the stage for the next major war. I once heard a story that took place in a far away world. I cannot recall its name. A nation was led by a bad man who regarded the facial hair beneath his nose as 'trimmable' but ultimately untouchable. Whether this led to his badness is unknown, but he generally made himself a nuisance. Or so I've heard. After his nation lost a huge war, it was divided into four pieces, its leaders were hanged, shot or jailed for lengthy terms, and all mention of the former bad man and/or his bad ideas was considered a crime. The nation learned its lesson, and has not done the same thing since. The moral of the story, btw: You are wrong. ----- Also, I see that a few people seem to like Seerow's alternate solution to the 'peace mode problem', probably because if a nation chooses to remain in that state for 30 days it gets away with it. Regardless, Seerow's "terms" are not the ones that were offered, and no amount of 'agreement' on the part of rank-and-file NPO members will change that. ----- I would like to suggest that from this point forward, observers feel free to end their posts with the following statement from the NPO's Emperor with regard to the NpO: [12:13] <Moo-Cows> the other nations in peace must feel the pain the rest of the alliance suffered [12:13] <Moo-Cows> I did not shape these terms but I believe in that strongly Compare that with the whining-masked-as-rage in the OP wayyyyy back at the beginning of this thread. Regardless of when or even whether the NPO accepts the only terms that are on the table, there will need to be significant changes at the top if the world is ever to trust this alliance again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Furthermore i propose a white peace for Pacifica and payment from the Hardliners in Karma to Pacifica from 100 million for each and every page of this topic.End this cycle of violence here and now. Welcome back from your holiday on Bizarro Bob, I hope it was nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcraftmazter Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Yah lets force NPO to disband... Cause you know you will have 700 nations going around to many different alliances so they can get high in govt. and then take out their revenge on the other alliances. Disbandment I think is going to be a bigger problem for Karma then it would be fore NPO. Nobody is forcing NPO to disband, the terms are more than reasonable. Just get off your high horse and shed your smugness. The nations which have been fighting are of course the same ones that suffered damages, nice circular logic How is this relevant? NPO is not ready for war. It's ready for peace mode. That is the point. Who fought what in the past is of no consequence... The two weeks war for any peace mode nations is plain and simple an attempt to force large parts of Pacifica to re roll. I think you are confusing typical GGA-style tactics with Karma's.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otherworld Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I once heard a story that took place in a far away world. I cannot recall its name.A nation was led by a bad man who regarded the facial hair beneath his nose as 'trimmable' but ultimately untouchable. Whether this led to his badness is unknown, but he generally made himself a nuisance. Or so I've heard. After his nation lost a huge war, it was divided into four pieces, its leaders were hanged, shot or jailed for lengthy terms, and all mention of the former bad man and/or his bad ideas was considered a crime. The nation learned its lesson, and has not done the same thing since. The moral of the story, btw: You are wrong. To counter that though...WW2 really only started due to the harsh reparations of WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesca Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Nobody is forcing NPO to disband, the terms are more than reasonable. Just get off your high horse and shed your smugness. Can you please name some tougher terms, somewhere back in the history of Planet Bob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcraftmazter Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Can you please name some tougher terms, somewhere back in the history of Planet Bob? I've done that several times today, and am getting pretty tired of it. Why don't you read through this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts