Daedalus27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7HkG6OSo3E

Yea, we better be careful. We could find ourselves at war with such a risky choice.....

You choose whether or not to have furs (now), there is no choice on basic land growth. Navies are expensive to field when your constantly beat down in warfare as you have to have at least 1500 infra, plus the cost of the ships. It is expensive to have to do this each day. This is a bug, plain and simple and needs to be addressed. Either make naval combat available (IE navies can be used on everyone) to everyone no matter the land level so you can't escape it by selling land, or allow the selling of growth based land. Either way, having some able to avoid naval combat while others cannot is unfair and a bug

How is this fair that older nations have no recourse to avoid naval combat if we are unable to reduce our land holdings? We get pummled and have to keep taking hits while younger nations can safely dispose of land and avoid this costly area of combat. This is a significant bug as there is nothing that can reduce our land holdings (nukes don't even damage it) so naval combat can always be done against us even if we are tiny due to war losses.

It is not allowing me to sell land to get below 1000 miles to avoid naval combat. I removed my ships, paid my bills, entered a negative twenty on the land to puchase, hit calculate, it gave a negative $6000 result but when I confirmed it gave me the following error message: You have received an error trying to view a page. Here is the detailed error code: You have no land to sell. I have 1183 land available to sell so that isn't the issue. I tried performing this action in both IE and Firefox and both gave the same result. I seem to be complying with all the rules to sell land yet it is not allowing me to do so. Is there a CD after eliminating naval forces before you can sell land and if so why isn't it in the documentation anywhere. If this is a bug, how can I resolve it? http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=38760

The critical factor was peace was achieved on this front and everyone can go back to growing their nations or continuing to blow up nations that are still in the fight. No use dropping bombs on nations for another day when they want to wrap things up.

Well I can replace it somewhat. Lead and Marble [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=38760"]http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=38760[/url] Honestly, go for Iron/Wheat for the last one. That way we add beer instead of fine jewelry. We can still keep the gems guy but wheat is better than silver IMO in this build. Since it comes down to that, you can go for whatever Iron nation goes first (silver or wheat). Given it is down to 1, I would also start messaging people in game to see if we can finish this. I really need this to launch as its less than a week before my next back collect.

I have lead and marble Gold would be a good last resource as that brings in radiation cleanup which is nice for those nuclear wars.

I would be interested, Nation Ruler: Daedalus27 Nation URL: [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=38760"]http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=38760[/url] Resource One: Lead Resource Two: Marble

[quote name='dealmaster13' timestamp='1288904105' post='2502126'] Base Effectiveness: 98% Location: -42.00000, -62.00000 Mine Effectiveness: 98% Location: -44.00000, -62.00000 Colony Effectiveness: 99% Location: -43.00000, -60.00000 Good luck on 100% hehe [/quote] -43.00000, -61.00000 = 99% effectiveness

Well, it was nice having a sanction for a little bit. Time to put the cat pips back in their cage.

[quote name='Sir Sci' date='01 March 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1267485803' post='2210391'] He's a newer member who has so far shown incredible competence, something you [s]don't[/s] see much of the time. [/quote] That and he gave everyone who voted for him a beer.

Well the terms are out there as requested. Accept them, reject them, or counter-offer. Negotiations have started and we will see what happens. The peanut gallery doesn't get to decide, it's up to the various alliance leadership to determine the next step. The ball is in TOP/IRON/TSO/DAWN/TORN court.

[quote name='Power' date='22 February 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1266888023' post='2198249'] Good deal, Ill be out looking for it! You can be number 21 for me. It can be like a celebration - kind of like Disney at the end of the day! Don't worry, if your like all the rest, my SDI guys should be sleeping so it should come right in. [/quote] Thanks for turning off the SDI. Happy Birthday. [IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm22/wonder_lick/Animated%20pics/wonder_lick_Awesome.gif[/IMG]

I'll dedicate a nuke in your honor tonight.

As a GATO member, I pushed for the acceptance of the viceroy because we had no other option. Our banks were forced out of peace mode thanks to the NPO EZI declaration, our nations were destroyed. The war was over after the declaration but given the history, the NPO would accept nothing short of total victory. The only way to salvage some sort of community was to accept a viceroy or risk fragementation due to unending war. A viceroy is never a good option and is a tool of humiliation of the victors. I have to say I don't have an opinion on the effectiveness of a viceroy because I was in the initial purge for questioning what the viceroy and his associates were doing. I had no warning, no opportunity to be heard, simply thrown out without any notice. I had to get the message on the absurd charges from members. I don't know how they worked or didn't work for GATO. I don't believe viceroys should be used, but I can't say I would shed a tear if the Karma forces imposed it as a required peace term on NPO. Of course the NPO would have to accept such a term and right now they are still in their blustering stage where they feel they can effect negotiations. We will see how long they can accept lacking relevance on planet bob and the fragmentation that will occur as the war drags on.

Vol Navy captured the idea exactly. It is fear that is driving these negotiations. The NPO propaganda has worked and the image the NPO carefully cultivated is now backfiring against them. Most nations have heard nothing over the past 3 years except how the NPO is an unstoppable juggernaut with unlimited cash and tech that can smite whomever the leadership desires. Up until now from GW1 to this conflict, it has played out this way with the NPO and its allies destroying all possible threats and other foes for fun and profit. No one can count how many times it has been stated by the masses that the NPO can do no wrong and your either with the program or the next victim. Sure cracks have shown in this idea at some points where their partners have become the latest victims, but these small bumps in the road were soon papered over and explained away. Now this war has shown the NPO is mortal and exposed that they are in fact, mortal. The Karma forces now have the NPO in a position that they have held countless opponents. The justifications for any punishment are there just as the NPO has used past offenses of their defeated foes in imposing peace terms on the vanquished over the years. The victor determines the terms and right now the NPO has rejected the first offering as often happens. Now sure, retribution for the NPOs past acts and historical slights plays well for PR purposes, but the real reason for the terms we are seeing is fear of the future. Karma forces do not want to fight this battle again in a few months. History shows what happened between GW1, GW2, and GW3. Building a winning coalition is hard enough once, and given the diverse alliances involved without a strong binding organization, it may not happen again. When you have your opponent on the ropes, you want to eliminate them as a threat; otherwise you may find yourself on the receiving end in the future. the fear is if they don't cripple the NPO presently, all we are creating is a temporary power vacuum that the NPO may find a way to use to retain its influence and even predominance after a brief post war lull. Yes the world has changed from the GW1 and GW2 days but many of the changes have made it much easier to bounce back. Wonders now render nations able to quickly rebuild due to economic bonuses. More significantly it is childs play to replace nukes enhancing any alliances destructive power. Where a large nation prior to wonders, once beaten down, would rarely rise back to nuke range, now the Manhattan Project renders these nations to quickly rebuild arsenals once they are able to. With the NPO having 163 nations with Manhattan Projects, this can easily give them one of the largest nuclear arsenals in 20 days. With this possibly being the only chance to try and render NPO less threatening, Karma will naturally want to be careful and not squander this opportunity less they wind up suffering even more damage in later wars. Now of course this is only theoretical capability, but given the image the NPO has cultivated, it is highly believable that the moment peace is achieved the stage is set for a resurgent NPO possibly desiring to settle the score relatively quickly. Therefore terms are not about correcting past wrongs, but instead targeted to retard NPOs rebuilding and stave of a resurgent military threat for the foreseeable future. In order to do this, they will need to be large payments and occupying a majority of aid slots to minimize the internal NPO capabilities to repair the damage and potentially draconian restrictions on foreign policy or internal organization. When I saw the terms, I was honestly surprised not by their harshness, but by the relatively lax nature. Yes the payment amounts were huge but that is the only real method sap growth of a large alliance. Furthermore, I thought they were being lax with only 14 days of war. Honestly, if a nation turtles, to minimize damage even a large nation can't be crippled in only 14 days if they have had any kind of preparation, as we would expect from NPO. These terms are humiliating to NPO and I am not surprised they rejected them. However, the longer the process drags out, the further eroded their capability will be. Attrition will also hurt the NPOs rebuilding so being at war (so long as the Karma coalition can maintain it) or having large reparations payments both serve the goal of reducing the NPOs future threat. There was no foreign policy restrictions or internal modifications demanded in this peace offer Naturally these terms would be even more difficult to impose and could possibly be red herrings that we would see if Karma desired perpetual war. However, these tools are the most powerful for potentially rendering the NPO safe. Of course as the war drags on perhaps they will be unnecessary as the NPO suffers continuing losses. However I would still consider them a possible tool to use if I was crafting a peace treaty so I was a little surprised not to see something of that nature. Ultimately, it is up to the alliances involved to craft a solution and I am sure they are reexamining the state of affairs on a daily basis. The peanut galleries comments have never done anything in past wars so we shouldn't expect anything to happen here. Just sit back and wait for further developments so we can argue meaninglessly over the next stage in negotiations or the settlement. Shouting outrage or calling for blood will not change the terms or individuals thoughts on them one bit. Everyone has pretty fixed ideas on the conflict by this point so our words change nothing. I just felt like typing out a few thoughts late in this epic thread.

If it helps Francesca sleep at night, its fine to have the justification for doing what she did. In my mind, that excuses nothing. You cannot serve 2 masters in this game and be seen as loyal. Given the behavior, I would strongly question any alliance who would have a member who would agree to spy. How can you ever trust them not to engage in the same behavior should they find something in their new alliance disagreeable? When you violate the trust of an alliance and give information to others, you are forever branded as disloyal in my mind. If you have disagreements and you cannot resolve them, you leave. However by engaging in serving two masters, for whatever reason, you lose the ability to be considered trustworthy.

I think you have to wait until there is an official position to condemn Karma. Having a large number of peace mode nations has to be a serious concern for Karma and the world at large. We have seen what a marginally defeated NPO can accomplish and if I were in Karma's shoes I wouldn't want to have to try and reform a grand alliance in 3-4 months. With the NPO in bunker mode and most allies seperated, there may not be a better time to accomplish creating a lasting peace. Therefore there has to be some form of method to try and make sure NPO is cut down to size for a long time to come or what is being done is largely symbolic and useless in the larger scheme. There are few methods to do this and unfortunately all may be distasteful but if the objective is to truly remove the NPO as a source of oppression then it may be required. If you can come up with a method that will ensure NPO's ability to make war is curtailed without some form of peace mode penalty or other draconian measures that were used by NPO and now cited as justification for this conflict I am sure Karma would be willing to listen. Ultimately though it is Karma's call on what they want to do as they are the victorious party.

Angrator, your name is bolded because I use it as a convention. Personal names should be bolded so they stand out and can catch the eye of those addressed. Now if you did some research on the CNARF you will find my name associated with defending it. Look on the old forums and old threads and you will see people defending it including myself. The problem is we were drowned out by opportunistic alliances using the CNARF and the participation of GATO members in it in order to try and formulate another war. When you are walking into a trap, sometimes you have to cut your losses. Given it was a side project by Walford rather than a formally adopted police of GATO, it was discarded even though many GATO members thought it was a noble endevor. If GATO did otherwise, I am sure you would be claiming it as stupidity for walking into another beatdown. Now on GATO organization, were you a member? How do you know it is "disorganized" as you claim. Policies shifted, in the Grenvel case quite rapidly, but that is far from a disorganized item, just a poor policy choice the AC attempted to minimize. These things can happen and again the critical thing is the issue was resolved and patched up. You seem to be the only one harping on it. The coup could have happened to any alliance. It just so happened to coincide with the the NpO recognition issue. The long gone founder returning and using his root forum access to launch a coup. Honestly, it could have happened to any alliance out there. Most of us had no idea who the heck he was or that he still had access there. How is this any different from the leadership struggle NPO had? Different names and respect of people but when 2 sides are claiming leadership to the largest alliance out there leading to a significant loss of the leadership, that isn't disorganized and cause for concern? If anything the NPO situation is worse because it was established leaders of the dominate alliance in the game fighting it out. Read Ivan's post above. GATO was viewed as a conveinent scapegoat and trumped up as an enemy. With NPO leading the way their allies fell in line and the legions of propagandists looked for any opportunity, whether real or imaginary, to create a negative image of GATO. Certainly GATO made some mistakes to make their lives easier, but if you have half the politically active people looking for any perceived mistake and criticising it, there is little any alliance could do to stop that. You seem to have bought their propaganda and continue to throw it at GATO. GATO never wanted to be NPOs opponent, it was thrust upon them as GATO never really wanted the domination of CN. That wasn't a realistic goal and GATO isn't bloodthirsty enough to reach that goal. However they were arguing for certain things that put them in opposition and that combined with the NPO needing an enemy pushed GATO into seeming perpetual conflict.

Angrator, If you are familiar with the events you use to condemn GATO, you certainly are doing so from the NPO type perspective. The propaganda tends to drowned out other perspectives and provide what I see as a tainted viewpoint. As a GATO member during this period, you cetainly seem to be using events in GATO history from a certain perspective. CNARF was a bold experiment ahead of the Revenge doctrine and Yellow No. 5. It was an attempt by Walford and other like minds to stop the ever escalating trend of tech raiding. Unfortunately, alliances like GGA and NPO sought to attempt to use those helping the unaffiliated at a pretext for war. The bullies used their alliances to defend those attacking the weak much as the members of GATO and other like minded alliances were using their alliances to attempt to defend those being attacked. Unfortunately without sufficient backing from enough alliances and the attempts to forumlate a justification for attack on GATO, the CNARF disbanded. If GATO would have done as you suggested (and I believe desired) they would have been subjected to yet another war causing further harm. I regret that it was ahead of its time and a consensus couldn't be reached in the world regarding tech raiding that would have spared many nations from the ravages of tech raiding. However even the great NPO came around and later used the same perspective to protect those on Red from tech raiding. However, if you blame GATO for not following through, you should also blame the alliances that supported the tech raiders for derailing the organization before it could get off its feet. Perhaps if the NPO would have worked with GATO and other like minded alliances, the CNARF would have been far more successful. The whole NpO fiasco was was very confusing. Ragashingo, I believe you have your timeline confused. The NpO recognition was well after the aftermath of GW1 where you refer to the initial crisis. It was a ploy by Grenval who had a short lived second term as MoFA. Democracies can make mistakes as many are familiar with on another planet with a mythical presidential system, for every Lincoln there is a George W. Bush so to speak. GATO worked through this grave mistake through their processes. Grenval had a very short and violent term and the Leadership tried to balance the policy adopted with trying to maintain the existing policy. It damaged relations with NpO for a long time but it was repaired prior to the 1V-GATO war with friendlier relations. If the NpO who were the victim of the mistaken policy can put it in the past, I don't see why you can't as well Angrator. Combine this horrible PR nightmare with a coup not too far after and of course GATO could be seen negatively. The coup was quickly put down and the alliance continued onward. How many other alliances have gone through disruptions and chaos as well and not survived or come out stronger. Do you hold the NPO coup between Moo and Ivan as another example that forever tarnishes them? The fact that GATO survived and rebounded as well as it did surely is some cause for respect isn't it? GATO was demonized and beaten to a pulp for most of its history. The fact that it still stands today says a lot. Yet some still see this survival as something of a failure. I ask you, what could GATO possibly do to change your opinion if at this point you cannot respect them? How can you honestly respect any alliance as most have not been involved in CN or survived even a portion of what GATO has. How many alliances have folded at the drop of a hat or gone quietly into the night. GATO has certainly made some mistakes, but if not for them, would CN be half as interesting as it has been. If you don't respect the alliances questionable at times history, you should certainly give it its proper respect as being a pillar of CN for most of its existance and the dedication of its diverse community.

If there first move wasn't a treaty with the NPO, who do you think they could get? I mean seriously, its not stockholm syndrome, its brand appeal. I bet you even now there are some out there who still aren't convinced that the NPO is done with them or won't find an excuse to get them later when the present war is over and they have had a chance to rebuild. That is GATO's history and its been around their neck like a noose unable to be removed since GW1. Regardless of the moves attempted or stated goals they have been always viewed in opposition when they aren't simply mocked and trolled to death. Hell if anything the NPO viceroyship served to get them out of the limelight so perhaps some of these old ideas may fade. With the present war perhaps they will be in a position to form a new viewpoint and relationship amongst other alliances.

I hope this change is implimented. No one uses Defcon 2, 3, and 4. Why should they? There is no reason to even have them in the game at this point unless some system is in place. How is it realistic to have your troops instantly at readiness? It takes days to go from Defcon 5 to Defcon 1. You have to recall troops and cancel leaves, you need to repair your equipment for an increased tempo of operations, and you have to deploy troops to staging areas to move onto the battlefield for max effectiveness (Please note nuclear weapons can do this, I am talking about conventional forces maximum readiness). You can't simply snap your fingers and make it happen like in CN. Would this change war and warfighting strategy, sure. However it would add a little bit more realism and make Defcon 2, 3, and 4 something you might actually see. Blitzes and quad attacks would still take place. You just have to make sure funds are stored prior to the conflict as your ability to collect during a war has been reduced. This is a minor change that I hope will be adopted.

Just to say I was one of the GATO members locked out of the forums for the past couple days. It appears the issue has been resolved.

Here is the problem with the unlimited tech effects on Military. All that tech from the CN equivelent of Bukino Faso, Rwanda, and Mongolia really wouldn't improve your military all that much. Nations don't create tech through their own innovation as the Admin intended, they buy it from the cheapest source (the most technologically backwards). If advanced nations were required to buy tech at the default prices from themselves, I could see tech having more of an influence on military effectiveness since an advanced nation becoming more advanced should have improved performance. However since everyone buys more slingshot and spear technology, it doesn't have much relevance to advanced missiles and tanks.