The "I Don't Know Anymore" War

[Tygaland]

Heracles and Chron, can you take your squabbling to PMs, its not really on topic anymore.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Tygaland

[Heracles the Great]

Heracles and Chron, can you take your squabbling to PMs, its not really on topic anymore.

My apologies Tygaland, I didn't mean to derail your topic - I'll continue this via PM's if Chron would like.

I also offered an opinion more on topic (I hope) a page or two earlier that I'd be interested to receive your feedback on

[Monster]

I really didnt think people would buy into the white peace for all - otherwise you are just as bad as the Hegemony line of thought. I guess I shouldnt be suprised people caved so easily.

Oh well - clearly it was all too good to be true.

We caved to no one. We went into this war not wanting to take reps.

[TehChron]

I'm pretty sure that we have plenty of blood on our hands and just because our sense of "the right thing" is different from yours does not change that fact.

Really? Defending your allies is a bad thing these days?

Edit: Sorry Tyga, Im finished anyway.

Edited May 13, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[Tygaland]

My apologies Tygaland, I didn't mean to derail your topic - I'll continue this via PM's if Chron would like.

I also offered an opinion more on topic (I hope) a page or two earlier that I'd be interested to receive your feedback on

Thanks. I'll look for your post now, I woke up to 9 or 10 pages of new posts so apologies if I overlooked yours.

Can you link me to the post? I don't want to type up a reply and find out it was the wrong post.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Tygaland

[Nizzle]

Because he quoted that number several times throughout this thread in response to Tyga claiming that there was a difference between "Outrageous" punitive measures and "Fair" ones. Thats why I felt the need to perform a simple test.

Based on the fact that he clearly was not able to recognize the number for what it was, and instead resorted to a character attack, I have come to the conclusion that his rant about reps is not really inherently moral...But rather is the result of some inescapable medical condition.

The man is allergic to reps. Clearly. Even so much as looking at the proposals for them seem to aggravate his condition. I mean not to mock, but only promote awareness of this man's frail and tragic medical state.

God's speed, Nizzle, you brave, brave man. Don't let us force you to live through that threat to your health. Reps.

"10 Tech"

Oops. Well, I didnt say they were reps, so it should be fine.

You weren't being sarcastic, then?

Jerk.

Is there some point to any of this banter? I'm sure if you looked around the past several threads on this topic you would discover a recommended amount of tech to be "seized". Yet again, though, the amount of tech matters not. It's the end result. That "warm and fuzzy". My point still stands despite the hilarious attempts you make at trying to derail it by discussing some disease I have.

[Ragashingo]

Two things (and I skipped about 10 pages so forgive me if I go over something already discussed):

1. This war is not what it should have been.

The Karma war should have been an offensive war launched by all of us tired of seeing the NPO and Co's world ruining policies. Unfortunately a combination of justified fear, alliances not reassessing their treaties near often enough, and a strong desire to rightly stay on the moral high ground, has screwed much of this war up.

In a lot of ways this war is a pathetic joke. A series of interesting but tightly contained defensive actions that by sheer luck managed to have enough firepower in the right places to end up being a victory. Instead of being able to focus all of our attention on the alliances that mattered we were brilliantly forced into splitting this war up into several sub wars. If things had gone badly on one front we wouldn't have even been able to redeploy our forces as needed for fear of being called bandwagoners or stepping on the wrong treaty!

In the end the treaty web, even having been greatly diminished, is having the last laugh. What could have been an end to, or more realistically a long reprieve from, the NPO's style of tyranny is looking to be nothing more than a brief vacation.

2. It doesn't have to be a short vacation!

Karma's goals are vague, the white peaces are getting out of hand, and what's coming around seems to be nothing more than a slap on the wrist, but that doesn't mean the war has to end up a failure. Even if the NPO and core allies get white peace they are still out of their previously unassailable position. They are now manageable. That hasn't been true for almost two years and is a great accomplishment!

All we have to do is be willing to say NO! if the NPO or any other alliance tries to go back to the old ways of E/P ZI's harsh terms, pointless alliance destruction, etc. As long as all of us, or even just some of us, are willing to look out for the good of everyone instead of going back to looking the other way while good people and good alliances are treated unfairly, then I'd call the war a success.

Objects in motion tend to remain in motion, and while I do have doubts about the future I intend to do my best to keep the ideals of fair play, those that Karma is ultimately about, moving forward. I hope the rest of you, alliance leaders and general members alike, will join me.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Paradigm]

Lots of good points Ragashingo. I like the outlook and will try to subscribe to it myself though its going to take some time.

[D34th]

I think the problem of Karma is each alliance have a different objective to reach beyond of NPO destruction. Some(most?) of them are looking for revenge, others are looking for justice(a few?), others just for freedom though the destruction of their ex puppets masters(NPO), other saw in this war a opportunity to destroy their old enemies without being crushed and there are those that just choosed the winning side.

Some alliances will give peace terms looking for allies in the next war, I can already see sides forming and because of that these terms will not reflect the Karma Ideals just will be political maneuvers.

While there are a common mission for Karma alliances(destroy hegemony) there aren't a common objective behind it neither there are a common ideal and behavior of how do that and what do with the foes when war ends.

(OCC: I can compare it with GW2 when USA and URSS were fighting Germany together but with different objectives.)

Edited May 13, 2009 by D34th

[Pablo Monkey]

Two things (and I skipped about 10 pages so forgive me if I go over something already discussed):

1. This war is not what it should have been.

The Karma war should have been an offensive war launched by all of us tired of seeing the NPO and Co's world ruining policies. Unfortunately a combination of justified fear, alliances not reassessing their treaties near often enough, and a strong desire to rightly stay on the more high ground, has screwed much of this war up.

In a lot of ways this war is a pathetic joke. A series of interesting but tightly contained defensive actions that by sheer luck managed to have enough firepower in the right places to end up being a victory. Instead of being able to focus all of our attention on the alliances that mattered we were brilliantly forced into splitting this war up into several sub wars. If things had gone badly on one front we wouldn't have even been able to redeploy our forces as needed for fear of being called bandwagoners or stepping on the wrong treaty!

In the end the treaty web, even having been greatly diminished, is having the last laugh. What could have been an end to, or more realistically a long reprieve from, the NPO's style of tyranny is looking to be nothing more than a brief vacation.

2. It doesn't have to be a short vacation!

Karma's goals are vague, the white peaces are getting out of hand, and what's coming around seems to be nothing more than a slap on the wrist, but that doesn't mean the war has to end up a failure. Even if the NPO and core allies get white peace they are still out of their previously unassailable position. They are now manageable. That hasn't been true for almost two years and is a great accomplishment!

All we have to do is be willing to say NO! if the NPO or any other alliance tries to go back to the old ways of E/P ZI's harsh terms, pointless alliance destruction, etc. As long as all of us, or even just some of us, are willing to look out for the good of everyone instead of going back to looking the other way while good people and good alliances are treated unfairly, then I'd call the war a success.

Objects in motion tend to remain in motion, and while I do have doubts about the future I intend to do my best to keep the ideals of fair play, those that Karma is ultimately about, moving forward. I hope the rest of you, alliance leaders and general members alike, will join me.

Great post, I whole heartily agree.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Killer Monkey land

[Gruthenia]

Are you as disappointed as I am?

Depends on with what you're disappointed in but chances are yes I am.

[bigwoody]

I will certainly concede that the last page or two has been very revealing as to how some alliances have approached this.

[Sal Paradise]

Depends on with what you're disappointed in but chances are yes I am.

Disappointed that we aren't losing.

[Gruthenia]

Disappointed that we aren't losing.

I won't say I'm disappointed about winning, but losing sure was a lot more fun and less confusing.

[Heracles the Great]

Thanks. I'll look for your post now, I woke up to 9 or 10 pages of new posts so apologies if I overlooked yours.

Can you link me to the post? I don't want to type up a reply and find out it was the wrong post.

Here ya go - Link

[Haflinger]

You misunderstood me (although since two of you did, maybe I phrased it wrong). The point is not that whole alliances will be out of range of the MP nukes – although we pretty much will be, it has always been true that we could not ZI people – but that any nations where the damage is significant will be out of range. Yes, you can nuke 2000 infra nations from now until eternity, but that damage will not be significant to any large alliance.

Grämlins do not mass-recruit, so this doesn't affect them, but if a mass-recruiting alliance was getting its 2K infra nations repeatedly nuked, believe me it would have an effect on new nations joining, and not a good one.

[Gurney Halleck]

Some very good comments here.

In the end, Karma will have to decide if the main reason of this war is retribution for present aggression, for past acts; or to change the world order and the way things are done by toppling the power structure... or a combination of the above. With a loose coalition, as Mr. Grub correctly suggested, philosophies and intent will be individualized due to the lack of firm, centralized control.

Regardless, these are interesting times.

[Heracles the Great]

Grämlins do not mass-recruit, so this doesn't affect them, but if a mass-recruiting alliance was getting its 2K infra nations repeatedly nuked, believe me it would have an effect on new nations joining, and not a good one.

Technically they do... it's called "The Hive"

[Tygaland]

Well I think there is a lot of truth in this post and I'd add that, to me, Karma is more like an angry mob chanting "We aren't going to take it - no! We're not going to take it!" as they rise up against the actions of the Hegemony. The fact that Karma is not a bloc or anything more than a collection of alliances banded together by an incredibly disgusting treaty web that, ironically enough, was started by NPO, is the main reason there is such lack of cohesion. There are 3 main blocs in Karma - C&G, SF and Citadel - and even one of those is split by this war (OG). Within these blocs and their allies there are three main factions and each had a different goal in mind on what to accomplish with Karma. There are those who want to extract revenge and get payback for wrongs commited against them, there are those who see the pending threat of not taking out the hegemony now as they begin to top out and lose their advantage, and there are those who are tired of seeing alliances get curbstomped and their free speach be dictated by a man they've never liked or pledged allegience to. As the Hegemony loses it's power and slides down the power ranks, the 3rd group will slowly drop out of the war as will the 2nd, until ultimately it's only those in the 1st group who are left fighting against the Hegemony. (Sound familiar?) At that point, it's up to those in the 1st group to decide whether to fight on or settle for the damage inflicted up to that point.

That's just the observation of a peripheral member of "Karma"

EDIT - Clarification

I disagree that Karma is just an angry mob. If they were an angry mob they'd have gone on the offensive and surely would not have tried to resolve the OV incident like they did. So, I'll disagree with that representation.

As for your description of reasons why alliances are at war they seem fairly accurate although I think pigeon-holing each alliance or bloc into one of those groups would be difficult. From the STA's perspective they would fit into all three groups to some extent. Mostly 2 and 3 but there is a little of 1 within our ranks too. I think that would be applicable to most alliances in the war on the side of Karma.

I'd say the main reason for the gradual withdrawal of alliances from Karma, at least in any military capacity, is the closure of their branch of the war. Again, using STA as an example as it is the one I know most about, our war was a branch from the TPF front fighting Molon Labe and later DOOM after ML attacked MK. Once peace was agreed between us, MK, NSO, NpO, ML, DOOM and TPF our war was done in an active sense. The idea, from my perspective, was to remove peripheral alliances from the war to take pressure of those fighting on the frontlines against Continuum/1V alliances.

As each group of alliances peace out an opponent, Karma alliances exit the fighting aspect of the war which is why numbers of alliances fighting under Karma's banner drops steadily as the war progresses.

Your groups may have more to do with the peace terms offered so far and I think that is probably the biggest weakness Karma has. Once the fighting was done alliances didn't bother talking to each other or try and put together some sort of scheme for surrender terms. They just saw a way to end the fighting and took it.

No big deal and within the rights of all involved to do that. But it does not really contribute to the overall goal of Karma and that is what confused me. Moreso when alliances who fought under the Karma banner, received aid from other Karma alliances and fought on fronts organised and maintained by Karma then decided to tell Karma to go forth and procreate when it came for peace terms to be decided.

When the STA discussed peace terms with ML and DOOM a Karma rep was there. LiquidMercury from Grämlins. I didn't have an issue with it as we were dealing with alliances on the perirphery of the Hegemony, there was no reall call for reps or any other restrictions. But, I think a more coordinated distribution of peace terms would have been a wiser path to follow and a fairer one for those alliances surrendering.

To see SSSW18 and TSI have to pay reps and alliances like Valhalla and NATO walk away with nothing does not seem fair to me at all. In fact, it is ludicrous and testament to the failure of Karma to do the fair and just thing with regards to terms handed out.

But, it is all done now and nothing I or anyone can do about it. I just feel sorry for alliances like SSSW18 who now appear to be held more accountable for a war they had nothing to do with starting than one of the core members of the group that started the war.

Perhaps I'm just insane.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Tygaland

[Ravnica]

No big deal and within the rights of all involved to do that. But it does not really contribute to the overall goal of Karma and that is what confused me. Moreso when alliances who fought under the Karma banner, received aid from other Karma alliances and fought on fronts organised and maintained by Karma then decided to tell Karma to go forth and procreate when it came for peace terms to be decided.

When the STA discussed peace terms with ML and DOOM a Karma rep was there. LiquidMercury from Grämlins. I didn't have an issue with it as we were dealing with alliances on the perirphery of the Hegemony, there was no reall call for reps or any other restrictions. But, I think a more coordinated distribution of peace terms would have been a wiser path to follow and a fairer one for those alliances surrendering.

To see SSSW18 and TSI have to pay reps and alliances like Valhalla and NATO walk away with nothing does not seem fair to me at all. In fact, it is ludicrous and testament to the failure of Karma to do the fair and just thing with regards to terms handed out.

But, it is all done now and nothing I or anyone can do about it. I just feel sorry for alliances like SSSW18 who now appear to be held more accountable for a war they had nothing to do with starting than one of the core members of the group that started the war.

Perhaps I'm just insane.

Karma isn't failing by "letting" people walk away with but a slap on their wrists. You had a Karma rep there. Everyone else probably didn't. (Not to mention everyone will do things differently. Some people want reps, some don't.) ...And yes, you're quite insane.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Pimpmobile

[Tygaland]

Karma isn't failing by "letting" people walk away with but a slap on their wrists. You had a Karma rep there. Everyone else probably didn't. (Not to mention everyone will do things differently. Some people want reps, some don't.) ...And yes, you're quite insane.

And that garbled diatribe was supposed to say what?

[Ravnica]

And that garbled diatribe was supposed to say what?

It's not garbled. It's 7 AM here. There isn't going to be a unilateral "terms" talk. As everyone's shown in the terms talks so far in this war, things are different. Some people want millions, some only one want one dollar. I know I sometimes make sentences seem funny because of some sentence structuring, or thinking the subject was understood, but it wasn't that bad in my opinion.

[Tygaland]

It's not garbled. It's 7 AM here. There isn't going to be a unilateral "terms" talk. As everyone's shown in the terms talks so far in this war, things are different. Some people want millions, some only one want one dollar. I know I sometimes make sentences seem funny because of some sentence structuring, or thinking the subject was understood, but it wasn't that bad in my opinion.

It seemed to jump to a different topic without warning so was quite hard to follow what it was you were actually saying.

Anyway, I'm well aware there is no organised peace term talks. My issue is that the terms given so far as so inconsistent it does not reflect the fairness aspect of the Karma "goals". If we were to give fair and just terms (as opposed to white peace all around!) then smaller, peripheral alliances should not be punished more than core Continuum alliances because the former played no role in planning and executing this war and the latter did. This is one reason why Karma dropped the ball with peace terms.

If I'm insane for wanting to see fair terms reflective of an alliance's connection to the Continuum/One Vision then I'll happily walk myself to the asylum.

[Ravnica]

I was just saying you're insane just to say it. In any case, Karma as a whole hasn't put out any surrender terms, so the individual alliances that want peace accepts whatever the alliance they're surrendering to gives. You might want to talk to Archon to see what Karma has failed, and have not failed to do. I personally will as soon as I get to my alliance's forum again and remember to ask.

[Tygaland]

I was just saying you're insane just to say it. In any case, Karma as a whole hasn't put out any surrender terms, so the individual alliances that want peace accepts whatever the alliance they're surrendering to gives. You might want to talk to Archon to see what Karma has failed, and have not failed to do. I personally will as soon as I get to my alliance's forum again and remember to ask.

I don't think it really matters anymore. No point closing the gate once the horse disappears over the horizon.