The "I Don't Know Anymore" War

[shahenshah]

As for the other terms, I'd say that all alliances at PZI and all nations at EZI or PZI get peace. More peace is not evil. Also, in Cyberverse we share our spheres. Again, I don't understand how these terms are harsh, or mean, or bad.

You don't understand one more thing..There is no EZI or PZIs anymore, Hegemony stopped that practice before the war. Some e-lawyer will come and tell you otherwise, but words are words and actions are actions.

Another thing you dont understand is MK-NpO and TSO-MCXA issues were very different.

Yes I was going to mention MK. The fact is that MP nukes from low down are annoying, but not enough so to force a winner to concede very much for a quick peace – you'll be out of range of the expensive infra anyway.

Not every alliance is Gramlins. Out of range goes both ways. 500k nuke will still be alot cheaper in most cases than the infra it will destroy.

[shahenshah]

Lol. You're fairly confident that NPO and friends will change the way they've done things for the better part of two years because they lost a war and got to walk away afterwards? Pardon the cynicism, but I'll believe it when I see it.

There is a difference between making this a kinder, gentler world and slaying a monster. You may hand out easy, good as white peaces to the monster and feel nice and good about yourself, but at the end of the day all you've done is let the monster live, and you'll find that nothing will have changed. Slay the monster. Change the world. It only works in that order.

Just my two cents.

If the world worked like that, it wouldn't have come crashing down like it did.

-

The biggest problem is people are thinking in terms of maths, pixels, stats etc...One needs to stop using IQ and start using EQ.

Edited May 12, 2009 by shahenshah

[Nizzle]

I have become convinced that one side of this war will not be satisfied until they get 10,000 tech in reparations due to events not even involved in the cause of this war. Then, and only then, can they say "Well gosh, that didn't do a lot but I sure do feel better about myself."

[OverCaffeinated]

I have become convinced that one side of this war will not be satisfied until they get 10,000 tech in reparations due to events not even involved in the cause of this war. Then, and only then, can they say "Well gosh, that didn't do a lot but I sure do feel better about myself."

It's going to be interesting to see if NPO pride last longer then their attackers willingness to prolong the war. We'll see in a month or two.

[Londo Mollari]

Game mechanics have changed.

People think this is a philisophical argument but it isn't. White peace will be the norm for the most part (at least for alliances with lots of Manhattan Projects). This has nothing to do with people playing nice with each other, it has to do with practicality.

We have PZIed a nuke rogue with a Manhattan Project and a significant warchest before. Yes, there is a cost to do so, but no matter how large a nation's warchest is, no matter what kind of toys he has to play with, he will eventually have his warchest bled to zero and be forced into bill lock under a prolonged assault. It is the simple math of repeated defeat alerts and continuing bills and military expenditures.

If there is a need to continue war to that point, there is nothing in the game mechanics that will stop it from happening. White peace, where it is granted, will be granted by the political and philosophical inclinations of the victor, or by desire to score PR points.

[Nizzle]

We have PZIed a nuke rogue with a Manhattan Project and a significant warchest before. Yes, there is a cost to do so, but no matter how large a nation's warchest is, no matter what kind of toys he has to play with, he will eventually have his warchest bled to zero and be forced into bill lock under a prolonged assault. It is the simple math of repeated defeat alerts and continuing bills and military expenditures.

If there is a need to continue war to that point, there is nothing in the game mechanics that will stop it from happening. White peace, where it is granted, will be granted by the political and philosophical inclinations of the victor, or by desire to score PR points.

There is, however, a significant cost in reaching the point of clear victory when you are facing a prepared opponent. I think some alliances aren't prepared to last the duration of such a war, and I think that's the point OC is making.

[Heracles the Great]

I can honestly say that when giving terms to Valhalla, the number of MPs and the size of their warchests played no role in deciding what those terms would be or whether or not we would demand reps. Whether or not that will factor in to the equation in future peace negotiations or not is purely speculation.

[Monster]

I can honestly say that when giving terms to Valhalla, the number of MPs and the size of their warchests played no role in deciding what those terms would be or whether or not we would demand reps. Whether or not that will factor in to the equation in future peace negotiations or not is purely speculation.

I'd like to highlight this point.

[Heft]

It's been pretty clear for awhile now that Karma is an ineffectual coalition and incapable of fighting a prolonged conflict in an efficient or organized manner. The only reason Karma is winning this war is through sheer weight of numbers. The routine posts claiming that Karma isn't an organized bloc with a centralized command post making decisions, as if this lack of coherency is somehow a positive thing, have only highlighted the issue.

At this point, any lasting change to Hegemony alliances and the Hegemony itself will result from those alliances, not from Karma or from this war. This has always been true, and the Hegemony was moving towards change prior to this war anyway. Most of the lasting "damage" was done before the war ever began, and mostly by Vox and other similar groups. The idea that Karma is now afraid of including such groups is rather hilarious, considering they're the largest reason this war is even possible.

There are too many competing interests within Karma, and too many people who have no concept of how to sublimate their own agenda to that of the whole in order to benefit all. As Grub mentioned many pages back, the reason the Continuum succeeded so long was because we were able to accomplish that, and work as a single bloc, even when we disagreed, rather than just a collection of alliances. In fact, it could easily be argued that the lack of pro-active action to head off this conflict was a result of a degrading coherency within Continuum. I don't believe the Hegemony, at least in any recognizable form, will re-emerge after this war is over, but only because of the choices those alliances are and will be making on their own, and not because of the actions of Karma.

[Bob Janova]

Most alliances are not in the same position that the Grämlins are where most of their nations are high enough in NS that MP nukes cant hit them.

You misunderstood me (although since two of you did, maybe I phrased it wrong). The point is not that whole alliances will be out of range of the MP nukes – although we pretty much will be, it has always been true that we could not ZI people – but that any nations where the damage is significant will be out of range. Yes, you can nuke 2000 infra nations from now until eternity, but that damage will not be significant to any large alliance.

[Zhord]

You misunderstood me (although since two of you did, maybe I phrased it wrong). The point is not that whole alliances will be out of range of the MP nukes – although we pretty much will be, it has always been true that we could not ZI people – but that any nations where the damage is significant will be out of range. Yes, you can nuke 2000 infra nations from now until eternity, but that damage will not be significant to any large alliance.

...but what about the kids

[Ilya Murometz]

You don't understand one more thing..There is no EZI or PZIs anymore, Hegemony stopped that practice before the war. Some e-lawyer will come and tell you otherwise, but words are words and actions are actions.

Another thing you dont understand is MK-NpO and TSO-MCXA issues were very different.

I think that there are some alliances still at war with FAN and Vox. When you say "if you are a member of alliance X and if you come out of peace mode you will be ZIed" is in essence a ZI policy applied to an entire alliance. Although, I could be behind on some of the news, seeing as I'm in the midst of warfare, and if that's the case, then

As for MK and TSO, I wasn't speaking of relationships, I merely pointed out that TSO and MK were both able to pay off harsh reps. Well TSO is still working on it, but I think overall they'll be able to pay it off.

It's going to be interesting to see if NPO pride last longer then their attackers willingness to prolong the war. We'll see in a month or two.

We agree

o/ Two more months!

[Sal Paradise]

I've been a good man doing nothing, sitting back and judging the imperfections of those with the courage to do right, and I've been an accessory to evil. Both of those were incredibly easy.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Gruthenia]

...but what about the kids

They can be rebuilt easily, it will weed out those who are inactive or around to suck aid perhaps, but, if you wish to destroy your enemy, the cost is irrelevant if you can rebuild relatively easily when all is said and done while they have to start from scratch.

[BamaBuc]

Yup, i agree with this..

but the problem is, many alliances who are now in Karma side were in Hegemony Sides. and what they did were no better than what Hegemony did...

thoughts ??

Ah, but they conveniently "saw the light" when they knew a beatdown was coming (not all of them did it for that reason, some just had more friends on the Karma side, but I'd wager a good many did). So they are automatically absolved of any past crimes.

-Bama

[Heracles the Great]

It's been pretty clear for awhile now that Karma is an ineffectual coalition and incapable of fighting a prolonged conflict in an efficient or organized manner. The only reason Karma is winning this war is through sheer weight of numbers. The routine posts claiming that Karma isn't an organized bloc with a centralized command post making decisions, as if this lack of coherency is somehow a positive thing, have only highlighted the issue.

At this point, any lasting change to Hegemony alliances and the Hegemony itself will result from those alliances, not from Karma or from this war. This has always been true, and the Hegemony was moving towards change prior to this war anyway. Most of the lasting "damage" was done before the war ever began, and mostly by Vox and other similar groups. The idea that Karma is now afraid of including such groups is rather hilarious, considering they're the largest reason this war is even possible.

There are too many competing interests within Karma, and too many people who have no concept of how to sublimate their own agenda to that of the whole in order to benefit all. As Grub mentioned many pages back, the reason the Continuum succeeded so long was because we were able to accomplish that, and work as a single bloc, even when we disagreed, rather than just a collection of alliances. In fact, it could easily be argued that the lack of pro-active action to head off this conflict was a result of a degrading coherency within Continuum. I don't believe the Hegemony, at least in any recognizable form, will re-emerge after this war is over, but only because of the choices those alliances are and will be making on their own, and not because of the actions of Karma.

Well I think there is a lot of truth in this post and I'd add that, to me, Karma is more like an angry mob chanting "We aren't going to take it - no! We're not going to take it!" as they rise up against the actions of the Hegemony. The fact that Karma is not a bloc or anything more than a collection of alliances banded together by an incredibly disgusting treaty web that, ironically enough, was started by NPO, is the main reason there is such lack of cohesion. There are 3 main blocs in Karma - C&G, SF and Citadel - and even one of those is split by this war (OG). Within these blocs and their allies there are three main factions and each had a different goal in mind on what to accomplish with Karma. There are those who want to extract revenge and get payback for wrongs commited against them, there are those who see the pending threat of not taking out the hegemony now as they begin to top out and lose their advantage, and there are those who are tired of seeing alliances get curbstomped and their free speach be dictated by a man they've never liked or pledged allegience to. As the Hegemony loses it's power and slides down the power ranks, the 3rd group will slowly drop out of the war as will the 2nd, until ultimately it's only those in the 1st group who are left fighting against the Hegemony. (Sound familiar?) At that point, it's up to those in the 1st group to decide whether to fight on or settle for the damage inflicted up to that point.

That's just the observation of a peripheral member of "Karma"

EDIT - Clarification

Edited May 12, 2009 by HeraclesTheGreat

[der_ko]

Ah, but they conveniently "saw the light" when they knew a beatdown was coming (not all of them did it for that reason, some just had more friends on the Karma side, but I'd wager a good many did). So they are automatically absolved of any past crimes.

-Bama

I love how you Hegemony kids believe being slightly outnumbered is a beatdown. Don't blame us for your incompetence.

Edited May 12, 2009 by der_ko

[Gatherum]

Gatherum nodded and sat up.

The answer is really quite simple, Tygaland, though it may not be Karma's ultimate intention, or even a conscious one.

That is, that, for the world that most in Karma desire to form, whether or not we are loath to admit it, the existence and positions of the key powers within the Hegemony are necessary to bring forth a world of balance. Without them present, it would essentially be a mirror image of the end of the Third Great War, where the opposition to the Hegemony of that time in Aegis ceased to exist, with no true coalition of such a nature appearing save from splitering from a larger force.

It is in that interest that alliances such as the New Pacific Order, the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, the Multicolored Cross-X Alliance, Valhalla, and the others must be allowed to exist, as well as thrive. This war is merely the method by which the Hegemony's power may be checked, and brought down, closer to the rest of the world, which effectively creates a bipolar (perhaps even tripolar, or quadpolar) state of affairs.

Such is the desirable path for Digiterra.

[Margrave]

You sound like you liked the prospect of new ideals and beliefs back then, so why not now? Give them a chance and don't let what happened after GW1 hinder the prospect of a new world forever.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing expecting different reactions. If your hand burns on the stove when it's on at your house, and then a few years later you place your hand on a burning stove at a cookout when it starts to rain, you still burnt your hand. The outer circumstances might change, but the reaction will always be the same.

[junkahoolik]

You misunderstood me (although since two of you did, maybe I phrased it wrong). The point is not that whole alliances will be out of range of the MP nukes – although we pretty much will be, it has always been true that we could not ZI people – but that any nations where the damage is significant will be out of range. Yes, you can nuke 2000 infra nations from now until eternity, but that damage will not be significant to any large alliance.

ooh i don't know about that... joining an alliance to be zi'ed when you reach 2k infra isn't something anyone wants. and i'm pretty sure of that... sure, gramlins wouldn't be affected by this, but other alliances... especially since the small guys buy the tech for everybody due to the world shortage of quality parts in the high end nations...

Edited May 12, 2009 by junkahoolik

[Sal Paradise]

ooh i don't know about that... joining an alliance to be zi'ed when you reach 2k infra isn't something anyone wants.

Lots of people have joined alliances they know will doom their nations to near ZI. I myself joined GR expecting they'd be on the losing side of the next war.

[TehChron]

I have become convinced that one side of this war will not be satisfied until they get 10,000 tech in reparations due to events not even involved in the cause of this war. Then, and only then, can they say "Well gosh, that didn't do a lot but I sure do feel better about myself."

Well, I guess that explains why you are so clearly self-deluded.

Alright, what number do you see here?

"10 tech"

I implore others to see this number, quote it, and say what they see.

Then Nizzle can announce what he sees. That way we can see if the reason why he exaggerates everything so much is either psychological or chemical.

[Nizzle]

Well, I guess that explains why you are so clearly self-deluded.

Alright, what number do you see here?

"10 tech"

I implore others to see this number, quote it, and say what they see.

Then Nizzle can announce what he sees. That way we can see if the reason why he exaggerates everything so much is either psychological or chemical.

The number is so completely irrelevant to the statement I made, I'm starting to wonder if you are my first stalker.

[Gruthenia]

Lots of people have joined alliances they know will doom their nations to near ZI. I myself joined GR expecting they'd be on the losing side of the next war.

I basically joined MK my second time around explicitly to get my !@#$ stomped.

[Sal Paradise]

I basically joined MK my second time around explicitly to get my !@#$ stomped.

Are you as disappointed as I am?