revenge doctrine

[ModusOperandi]

Actually, if anything, the fact that the NPO was simply a better alternative and completely swamped all other newbie nations with better quality recruitment messages is a better cause of weaker Red alliances in general than some kind of tyrannical grip on the team color.

I mean, I see your point...It's just not valid.

Subjectivity.

Clearly, we are countering each other with two different opinions on completely different subjects; we are discussing which is a better circumstance for Red, not which is a better circumstance for the NPO.

Unequivocally, the statistics (over the last three years) do not support your contention that the Moldavi/Revenge Doctrines were of greater benefit to the Red Team than the ability for our sphere to form multiple alliances to assist with the collective benefit of the common good.

Now, if you insist that the Moldavi/Revenge Doctrines are best for the NPO, I am not involving myself in that debate; as my intent behind this discussion is articulating that it would be best for our sphere if many alliances were permitted to establish themselves here since the most populous colors are the most prosperous.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ModusOperandi

[Merrie Melodies]

When FAN enforced YN5, they shot first and asked questions never. When NPO enforced RD, they asked questions first and then shot if necessary. I think that's the difference in a lot of people's minds.

-Bama

NPO also never demanded reps for the red nation, just that the raid end and the raider not come back to red again. To further it, actively raided all the other color spheres while telling everyone to stay out of yellow, which caused some resentment. If memory serves correct FAN members like Diskord were huge tech vacuums roaming PB.

[RandomInterrupt]

When FAN enforced YN5, they shot first and asked questions never. When NPO enforced RD, they asked questions first and then shot if necessary. I think that's the difference in a lot of people's minds.

-Bama

That may be true for a few folks, but majority of the opposition to FAN's act was a fear that they would benefit from it. Simply put, the forces that were wished for FAN to lose political capital, not gain it.

Regardless I think the whole color protection thing is really quite simple. It's a show of power. It's a way to say "look, I am so powerful I can protect my entire sphere". So that makes the question of whether it should and can be enforced a very easy one. It can and will be enforced by those who have the power to do so. FAN had the power for a bit, the NPO had the power for a long time.

In the next few months it will be really interesting to see what happens with red. Even if the NPO doesn't lose too much NS and membership, their political capital is gone. An alliance could start raiding red en-masse and then it would be a showdown. Also someone please do this.

[BamaBuc]

NPO also never demanded reps for the red nation, just that the raid end and the raider not come back to red again. To further it, actively raided all the other color spheres while telling everyone to stay out of yellow, which caused some resentment. If memory serves correct FAN members like Diskord were huge tech vacuums roaming PB.

These two things as well.

-Bama

[avernite]

In the next few months it will be really interesting to see what happens with red. Even if the NPO doesn't lose too much NS and membership, their political capital is gone. An alliance could start raiding red en-masse and then it would be a showdown. Also someone please do this.

It would certainly be an interesting experience, and it could easily blow up whatever remnant of the ties created by Karma still exist by then.

Which, when all is said and done, might be a good thing, and it might not be. The tricky thing is finding someone with sufficient allies that don't mind fighting to aid techraiding, cause otherwise NPO would probably win it (assuming this war is over, since otherwise it's just plain uninteresting).

[TehChron]

Subjectivity.

Clearly, we are countering each other with two different opinions on completely different subjects; we are discussing which is a better circumstance for Red, not which is a better circumstance for the NPO.

Unequivocally, the statistics (over the last three years) do not support your contention that the Moldavi/Revenge Doctrines were of greater benefit to the Red Team than the ability for our sphere to form multiple alliances to assist with the collective benefit of the common good.

Now, if you insist that the Moldavi/Revenge Doctrines are best for the NPO, I am not involving myself in that debate; as my intent behind this discussion is articulating that it would be best for our sphere if many alliances were permitted to establish themselves here since the most populous colors are the most prosperous.

If you're going to assess the health of the Red Sphere, then you should realize that the most acute cause of the Red Team's comparatively stunted growth is not the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines.

If you're going to make a shallow argument such as this as justification for your chest-thumping, I won't stop you. But to be frank, if there's any one cause for Red's, as you put it "Lack of benefit", it would be the NPO's very presence there to begin with. Not the policies of the Order, but it's existence which drowned out all other alliances that could have formed there. And only the most dedicated were able to "prosper", as it were.

Your blame is misplaced. Cute and blatantly opportunistic, but misplaced.

[ModusOperandi]

If you're going to assess the health of the Red Sphere, then you should realize that the most acute cause of the Red Team's comparatively stunted growth is not the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines.

If you're going to make a shallow argument such as this as justification for your chest-thumping, I won't stop you. But to be frank, if there's any one cause for Red's, as you put it "Lack of benefit", it would be the NPO's very presence there to begin with. Not the policies of the Order, but it's existence which drowned out all other alliances that could have formed there. And only the most dedicated were able to "prosper", as it were.

Your blame is misplaced. Cute and blatantly opportunistic, but misplaced.

How is the presence of a powerful alliance on a sphere the reason why other communities refuse to establish themselves there?

In the beginning, many alliances chose to affiliate themselves with other spheres in spite of the presence of sanctioned alliances such as GATO, Legion, NAAC, ODN/IRON, GGA, et al.

You cannot separate the presence of the NPO on Red from its adoption of the Moldavi Doctrine; the latter is an ideology that was enforced by the former.

By negating that fact it is akin to refusing to address the situation for lack of want to incriminate one's own personal beliefs.

Once more, you are reversing to personal attacks rather than engaging yourself in the tact that is required to displace an opposing argument.

[TehChron]

How is the presence of a powerful alliance on a sphere the reason why other communities refuse to establish themselves there?

In the beginning, many alliances chose to affiliate themselves with other spheres in spite of the presence of sanctioned alliances such as GATO, Legion, NAAC, ODN/IRON, GGA, et al.

You cannot separate the presence of the NPO on Red from its adoption of the Moldavi Doctrine; the latter is an ideology that was enforced by the former.

By negating that fact it is akin to refusing to address the situation for lack of want to incriminate one's own personal beliefs.

Once more, you are reversing to personal attacks rather than engaging yourself in the tact that is required to displace an opposing argument.

As Ive said in another thread, actually, equivalency does not exist. And regardless, your parroting is what brought about my comments on your character (how you portrayed yourself and your alliance as some sort of "freedom fighters" or something) and motivations, not your arguments.

And it is not that the NPO stopped alliances from forming, it is that its superior organization, recruiting methods, and overall dominance stifled the growth of other alliances in the sphere. Through it's sheer dominance, it presented itself as the superior choice on red, and all others were more or less inferior. If one did not want to be part of the NPO yet not part of a scrub alliance, the nation would respond to the recruitment message sent by another alliance on another color team and go there.

A plant growing in the shadow of a weed will not flourish if the weed is so vast as to take all the nutrients of the earth, sky, and sun for itself. The young plant will starve and die.

[Fallout]

Regardless of motivation, I like the Revenge Doctrine and think more larger alliances should cooperate in their spheres to have effective equivalents. Not that they were the worst they could be, even a "bad" institution can harbor good concepts.

I'm disappointed with the opportunists right now, but it's not like you couldn't expect as much. Humanity

[ModusOperandi]

As Ive said in another thread, actually, equivalency does not exist. And regardless, your parroting is what brought about my comments on your character (how you portrayed yourself and your alliance as some sort of "freedom fighters" or something) and motivations, not your arguments.

And it is not that the NPO stopped alliances from forming, it is that its superior organization, recruiting methods, and overall dominance stifled the growth of other alliances in the sphere. Through it's sheer dominance, it presented itself as the superior choice on red, and all others were more or less inferior. If one did not want to be part of the NPO yet not part of a scrub alliance, the nation would respond to the recruitment message sent by another alliance on another color team and go there.

A plant growing in the shadow of a weed will not flourish if the weed is so vast as to take all the nutrients of the earth, sky, and sun for itself. The young plant will starve and die.

Any parroting on our part was simply an act of defending our right to exist as a Red alliance against others who perpetuated the discriminative opinion that we did not have such a freedom.

By threatening war against any community which sought to establish itself on Red, our sphere was denied self-representation; something which is simply not the case anymore.

Now, if we were by any means "freedom fighters," wouldn't our community be at war right now?

It is not.

Simply put, we are a group of nations who enjoy helping others and prefer Red for a variety of reasons OOC; not everybody on Red wants to be part of a militaristic alliance, some (like us) prefer to affiliate ourselves with a community that has humanitarian goals.

[OOC]There are a variety of ways to play and enjoy this game.[/OOC]

[Gerald Meanĕ]

And it is not that the NPO stopped alliances from forming

I'm pretty sure they did at least on red, but it's not like there is anything intrinsically wrong with that anyway.

[TehChron]

Any parroting on our part was simply an act of defending our right to exist as a Red alliance against others who perpetuated the discriminative opinion that we did not have such a freedom.

By threatening war against any community which sought to establish itself on Red, our sphere was denied self-representation; something which is simply not the case anymore.

Now, if we were by any means "freedom fighters," wouldn't our community be at war right now?

It is not.

Simply put, we are a group of nations who enjoy helping others and prefer Red for a variety of reasons OOC; not everybody on Red wants to be part of a militaristic alliance, some (like us) prefer to affiliate ourselves with a community that has humanitarian goals.

[OOC]There are a variety of ways to play and enjoy this game.[/OOC]

Alright. But what does that have to do with my point about the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines being irrelevant to the robustness of the Red Sphere compared to the overall presence of the NPO?

[Matthew Conrad]

I doubt many people, besides some tech raiders I suppose, have a problem with this doctrine. The other is it's more controversial brother.

[ModusOperandi]

Alright. But what does that have to do with my point about the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines being irrelevant to the robustness of the Red Sphere compared to the overall presence of the NPO?

Well, we see both as the same to be honest; for example, it is difficult for us to separate the NPO from the Moldavi/Revenge Doctrines since one has pretty much always been a tenet of the other.

[Blacky]

NPO's attempt to claim a sphere of it's own when there are a limited number of colour spheres was one of the very worst of the policies it sought to enforce in it's position of power.

The Revenge doctrine existed only to encourage nations who would otherwise join other spheres to trade with them. It was not an act of good will, there was nothing good and honourable about it, infact it was even used on occassion as a casus belli. It was a method of ensuring economic stability for the NPO at the same as they sought to claim an entire sphere for themselves. Lets not dwell into the attempted colonisation of the Blue and Green spheres as well.

At the same time however, those who would not raid Red unaligned before and now suddenly find that it's a good idea really show one of two things. 1) That they're cowards. 2) That they're opportunists.

[TehChron]

I doubt many people, besides some tech raiders I suppose, have a problem with this doctrine. The other is it's more controversial brother.

It wasn't controversial until recently, I promise you that. Moreover, it is the Moldavi which enables the Revenge. Not the other way around. If you abolish the Moldavi Doctrine, then there really is no pretext for the Revenge...So what can you do?

Well, we see both as the same to be honest; for example, it is difficult for us to separate the NPO from the Moldavi/Revenge Doctrines since one has pretty much always been a tenet of the other.

The NPO is a tenet of the Moldavi doctrine...huh?

Ill let you off with a warning this time. I need to go to the supermarket.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[NinjaPirate]

Go ahead and start raiding red unaligneds. I'll be sure to try and find someone to deal with you after this war is over.

Is this supposed to be some sick joke?

[ModusOperandi]

The NPO is a tenet of the Moldavi doctrine...huh?

Ill let you off with a warning this time. I need to go to the supermarket.

lol; cheers mate, I've really enjoyed this discussion. Have a good one.

[Zombie Glaucon]

Actually, if anything, the fact that the NPO was simply a better alternative and completely swamped all other newbie nations with better quality recruitment messages is a better cause of weaker Red alliances in general than some kind of tyrannical grip on the team color.

I mean, I see your point...It's just not valid.

I can't tell if you're taking the piss, or if your head is really that far up your $@!.

Moldavi Doctrine has been a total failure for Red's prosperity, and has very much prevented the formation of alliances on Red (as intended). The Revenge Doctrine is a bit of a compensation, but in the end a very poor one.

[Freelancer]

The VG Coalition, The Red Rose to name two alliances with mostly Red nations that existed under Moldavi.

I'm sure there have been others, but I'm just going off the top of my head

Haflinger .. to be fair here those 2 example's may not be the best choices to defend your case, if memory serves The Red Rose was forced to be a multi colored alliance on Red and Maroon, VG were primarily red and blue until they merged into Blackwater, again this is from memory so if I'm wrong correct me.

Then how did the NPO treat those nations when viciously attacked, from a confessed liar?

I honestly would like to know if The NPO used there political muscle back then to save there assets where some of those people may be today, questions that can never be answered because The Big Bad NPO choose to turn a blind eye..

[Max Rockatansky]

I think the only problems people have with either is that they constantly confuse the two, and that no other alliance is allowed on red team. Protecting unaligned nations is a good thing. Saying no one else is allowed on their playground is not. Seems to me that it would be in their best interests to bring in as many allies to that sphere as they possibly could if only for the trades. Unless of course, there is an ulterior motive for doing so. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all.

[Freelancer]

I think the only problems people have with either is that they constantly confuse the two, and that no other alliance is allowed on red team. Protecting unaligned nations is a good thing Saying no one else is allowed on their playground is not.. Seems to me that it would be in their best interests to bring in as many allies to that sphere as they possibly could if only for the trades. Unless of course, there is an ulterior motive for doing so. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all.

Sir you win this thread, alliance leaders take note to the bolded... play smart win smart, however there are always exceptions to the rules, I believe Yellow # 5 had the best clause when protecting there color.

As long as you weren't an A@@hat

[Matthew Conrad]

It wasn't controversial until recently, I promise you that. Moreover, it is the Moldavi which enables the Revenge. Not the other way around. If you abolish the Moldavi Doctrine, then there really is no pretext for the Revenge...So what can you do?

I realize Revenge exists because of the Moldavi doctrine. I'm sorry if my last post seemed to suggest otherwise. I was stating that the OP was probably bringing up the wrong doctrine if he wanted one of them abolished since the Revenge was basically taking on the responsibility given by the Moldavi doctrine.

Ill let you off with a warning this time. I need to go to the supermarket.

This. I hope you're not referring to me with this.

[karthikking]

kill moldavi doctrine keep revenge

[Captain Fatbeard]

Yes because helping people on the red team that are getting tech raided is so arrogant and evil.

Yes because NPO's intentions are always righteous and good.