Justice For Traitors

[adhambek]

I'm pretty sure there is something in the middle of desolating your opponents, sowing their soil with salt and giving everyone white peace. Moderation in all things maybe?

Edited May 5, 2009 by adhambek

[shahenshah]

I stand before you today amazed.

I am stunned to think that within the last few weeks the cries for blood that rang from the heart of the Cyberverse seem to have ended abruptly. I

No False Peace. No Turning Back.

Snap

Destroy them.

You fall in one of the scenario explained below.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=56510

Edited May 5, 2009 by shahenshah

[shahenshah]

Apologies accepted

As for the second question, I don't really need to say it, you can easily guess wich ones will try to get the top spot and how they will do it.

Who isn't loosing that much NS and is not fighting big alliances? who isn't implicated in this war but will get the biggest profit?

Surely, there will be new allies or already existing allies that can put up a bloc strong enough not be destroyed. Look at the trends, look at how general membership are speaking to their ennemies. Some might be deemed as honorable, don't be fooled, they are merely repeating what the alliance leaders said in the latest Communication from their governement. They believe it but it's all part of a plan, of what's coming next.

But I am not teaching you anything

I think you and Mhawk are spot on..

There are no cowards. If they were cowards they have every chance to go seek refuge in Karma POW, having honored their treaty and free to run. The strong ones are who have rallied, even for a cause they may not agree, but because they gave their word. Fighting extreme odds against a mixed enemy of friends and hate filled scumbags. However actions speak louder than words and in the coming days/weeks ad infinitum they will prove their loyalty to themselves and friends and that is all any of are here for anyways.

[New Reverie]

You damn us to more conflict. There is a difference between taking that cruel power the enemy has held up once in order to end the cycle, and becoming the beast. You should know this.

Don't be fooled by false promises and easy peace. The Coalition of Cowards deserves nothing less than disbandment for their ridiculous behavior, but failing that, at least return to them a portion of the suffering they have pushed for the rest of the Cyberverse.

Our coalition is called Karma for a reason. The Hegemony has gone down this path many times. Disbanding alliances, installing viceroys, and assigning suffocating surrender terms did not stop our victory in this war. It did not stop all the wars before this one. Our goals are purer and greater than simple revenge.

That said, white peace is stupid from this point forward.

Edited May 5, 2009 by New Reverie

[Margrave]

Margrave, tactically you may well be right. Crushing the NPO makes perfect sense, beat them within an inch of their life, give them terms that beat the ones Polaris received, berate them, mock them, ridicule them... then I and many others will be coming for you, because you will be what you detested. Kicking any alliance repeatedly in the head is not good form and never will be. The thing that defines polite and honorable society (that which Karma preaches by their default official position) is how we treat everyone, not just those who it is convenient to do so.

I do not call for painfully harsh terms for Pacifica. Fair terms, painful perhaps, but ultimately terms that fit the "crime", not terms like they imposes upon others.

I reserve my harshest critique and my greatest loathing for the Coalition of Cowards who retreated from this conflict, only to be shamed into this war after one of the few honorable men among other side decided to speak up. Dr Fresh, who I had erroneously lumped together with the traitors, rallied the cowards to stand up and fight, and that is commendable. However, the rest of those people who abandoned NPO only to return due to shame deserve harsh terms and due punishment. Though some might say they are merely the hands and feet of the Hegemony, they have grown to become their own unique brands of "wrong", and deserve to be punished on those merits.

I fought on Pacifica's side for far too long to hate my Pacifican brothers, and even if I think this war is merited, I do not believe they deserve the harshest of terms. Save those for the traitors, the oath-breakers, and the yellow bellied members of the Coalition Of Cowards.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Margrave

[Gabe Logan]

Our coalition is called Karma for a reason. The Hegemony has gone down this path many times. Disbanding alliances, installing viceroys, and assigning suffocating surrender terms did not stop our victory in this war. It did not stop all the wars before this one. Our goals are purer and greater than simple revenge.

That said, white peace is stupid from this point forward.

Agreed. Many nations put it on the line to take down the oppressive forces of the NPO and those allies with the same mentality. Do they not deserve to gain back at least some of what was lost? I'm not interested in running people out of the game, disbandments, or viceroys. However, it's not unreasonable to request a fair level of tech and monetary repayments.

[shahenshah]

Does this mean you are going after alliances that were in Q only a few weeks ago, if not then why?

Q for 17 months = Q for 18 months unless the previous 17 months have all been good and the last one filled with extraordinary amounts of evil.

Actually in last month Viceroyalty on GATO was removed and alliances cleared their ZI lists and took a new stance on ZIs, away from the P/EZis. If there was anything good happened from perspective of Karma, it was the last month actually lol :/ So its like saying we're getting punished for removing Viceroyalty from GATO and removing ZIs.

I would not include Gramlins, FOK and TOP in that list. Gramlins and FOK left well too early. TOP not only entered the war late, it entered with utmost diligence and from what I have been told has been working positively behind the scenes for its friends on both sides. And TOP has been very generous with the terms, so for me some of their actions which I would not support (using OUT to enter the war, Optional defense > Mutual Defense?) are undone with actions that I can support as they have actively pursued to balance their approach with friends on both sides. I hope some others who have friends on both sides try to maintain their own values and balance their relations. Whether they like it or not, they signed up for obligations on both sides and it is their responsibility to live upto them. They must remember their values and honor, they are amongst people who have obligations on only one side, its easy for them to suggest something, it should not be easy for you accept them all. Mindless Hails o\ on choosing one side during the war hysteria is forgotten in couple days, but the actions are remembered for long time..and they catch up.

[VIdiot the Great]

I'll throw my completely irrelevant two cents in.

If terms that were previously offered by NPO were given, that would certainly be fair on some level.

However, mercy is justice. I do hope whatever terms are offered keep that in mind. I'm not saying that white peace is the only merciful terms possible, or that they would serve to accomplish the goal of security.

I'd just hope that terms were not simply a repeat of an 'eye for an eye' because parties can enforce such a term at this point.

Hopefully, we can move into a new era that is less harsh, more free, and accommodates many differing points of view in a respectful fashion.

I am looking forward to a new day, and hopefully it won't look like yesterday.

Regards,

VI

[Dr. Dan]

Your statement is that the NPO will get their punishment, while their other treaty partners will not be punished. What other logical inference can be drawn?

Pacifica is the instigator of the conflict. As the instigator, they will be punished. I believe that is another logical inference that could be made.

As for terms, white peace for all those who are simply honoring treaties. Blood lust and hypocrisy will not prevail.

Basically, what Almighty Grub/Hell Angel/Chill said.

[kpcurley]

My passion drives me to seek Justice, Retribution, and the destruction of cowards and traitors. They make a pretty claim to "Keeping Their Treaties", but the plain fact of it is that if Fresh hadn't been really convincing, they'd still be sitting out the fight. They have forever stained themselves as backstabbers and cowards and deserve a harsh fate for their actions. There is no shame in a White peace for their allies or friends who went to their aid. But it should be the shame of everyone who stands against these that there are members of the Cowards who will walk free and in peace tonight.

Oh my god brother, relax! How can one person show such bitterness and disdain over a simple text based browser game? Is it really that important? When I think of the people like you, I only sense such circular logic. How many alliances were tied diplomatically to the NPO? How many of them canceled in the days leading up to the war everyone knew was coming? Why are they not cowards? The fact is IRON and the rest simply announced that they canceled a treaty because of NPO's actions that the world condemned. (Yet, according to you we were not allowed to hold such opinions )

What propagandist like you don't realize is that NPO broke their treaties with us long before we enacted the cancellation clause. By not sharing intelligence and their military intentions they violated almost every clause of the treaty. Cowardice had nothing to do with it. No one shamed us into anything, do you really think if we wanted to stay out of this war that the words of a few vocal haters on the OWF had any bearing on our decision making process? We fought because we were still obligated by our treaties. Canceling one was merely a symbolic act.

But in all honesty I could care less, When I log off of this game I cease to think about it. It's merely a distraction and diversion used for entertainment value. It is most determinately not something to get so angry and bitter about. All this talk of punishment. You must admit its a bit silly. How are you going to punish someone over the internet? Are you going to deny them their right to play the game? (and don't come at me with examples like FAN, after all your supposed to better than that.) Force them to disband?

I have to tell you that the most oppressive force in this game is Karma (especially now) I am likely to get trashed and berated for expressing dissenting views. After all such post as these, are counter revolutionary and dangerous! My character should be defamed and insulted, I shall be written off as a pathetic automaton, brainwashed by the evil hegemony. But while you are engaging in such actions I will ask you where is this free cyberverse you speak of? The one where every opinion is allowed to be expressed and every sovereign alliance has the right to exist.

[Doitzel]

If honesty was a characteristic that would be rewarded on Bob I am sure quite a few people could answer that. In your mad haste to scramble to the public stoning of the NPO you seem to have overlooked some rather obvious facts. Karma my fat Aunty.

HellAngel speaks of Gramlins style justice and if Gramlins=Karma, I would be far more comfortable, because I trust them to at least be responsible. Some of the others among you, not so much. Back stabbing scum calling other people cowards doesn't sit well with me. Most of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and judge yourself by the very standards you seek to set.

I know of whom you speak, but I am annoyed that these people think they are making anything that resembles a convincing front against the faults of Karma by making vague suggestions and not coming right out and saying who they mean. They imply that there are those amoung Karma who wish to establish a Hegemony or who are "just as bad" as those we fight against. I have my many qualms with the Karma alliances and they are aware of them as they are aware of yours, but I do not think that there is a single amoung them that at all rivals the sheer length of service and dedication to the oppression of other nations and alliances as NPO or GGA. Than others on the Hegemony's side? You could make an argument for that. We also shouldn't assume that these guys are talking about the same alliances we are.

In short, if you have something to say you need to say it. If you want to make an honest criticism then you need to be honest. If you want to speak your mind then you need to offer all the details that link the story together.

The rest of your post, Grub, I agree with as usual. If Karma does not walk the walk after talking the talk I will not be pleased in the slightest.

[caligula]

Ah, I was waiting to see this argument.

"War based on morals, but we haz upperhand now, so why don't we become ebil?"

[Margrave]

-Snip-

Fair play is fair play is fair play. You can try to weaken my argument by inferring that I'm obsessed about an internet game as you like, but it doesn't change the facts.

And apparently you don't know enough about your own side. Go consult Dr Fresh and ask him what he had to do in order to get those "alliances honoring their treaties" to fight.

Besides, you've all already signed your own death warrants. Pacifica certainly doesn't seem to have given up the concept of Revenge, and I look forward to seeing a new Pacifica putting jack boots to a few of you.

[ChairmanHal]

Agreed. Many nations put it on the line to take down the oppressive forces of the NPO and those allies with the same mentality. Do they not deserve to gain back at least some of what was lost? I'm not interested in running people out of the game, disbandments, or viceroys. However, it's not unreasonable to request a fair level of tech and monetary repayments.

Their reward is removing the perceived (and sometimes very real) oppression.

A group of nations in 1918 sat around a table at the former residence of the French king to decide what would be "fair" reparations for the terrible war they had just experienced. They created not a world that was free from war and tyranny, but a world that would be filled with war and oppression for the next 75 years.

Do yourselves a favor. Resist the temptation to raise the sword one more time.

[SoxNation]

One thing you people who want to crush all in Q forget is.

Why did anti-NPO sentiment grow so much, no it wasn't VOX, well in a sense it was, but it was what VOX had. Tons of members from alliances that the NPO had crushed. A lot joined VOX, but a lot are also dispersed in other alliances, leadership in other alliances.

See what you fail to realize is you can't get rid of an alliance. You can ban it in that form, you can get rid of its name NAAC and LUE, but NAAC and LUE aren't gone. GOONS and \M/ and even \B/ may no longer be AA's (despite the new GOONS) but their members remain.

You can't destroy the NPO, you can't destroy IRON, etc... because even if you disband them, they will reform as multiple other alliances, join other alliances and change the FA, etc....

So your way Margrave does not work, all we can do is push them down far for now, give them fair terms and hope some of them will change their ways. And be vigilant about their actions and growth afterwards.

[Margrave]

Ah, I was waiting to see this argument.

"War based on morals, but we haz upperhand now, so why don't we become ebil?"

Taking a complex argument that states the people who betrayed the NPO should receive just terms and reducing it to a badly written scrawl is a beautiful non-argument. Please teach me more ways of indirectly insulting someone you disagree with, I'm all ears.

[Haflinger]

Pacifica is the instigator of the conflict. As the instigator, they will be punished. I believe that is another logical inference that could be made.

Yes, that's logical. It also assumes that the punishment for this conflict will simply be for the attack on OV. I have seen plenty of posts to indicate that people are seeking revenge for a number of other actions taken; everything from shenanigans over shaneprice to installing viceroys in GATO and Legion.

If the punishment levied against Pacifica is simply directed at providing relief for OV, then I will be very pleasantly surprised.

[Doug Falkner]

I just want to make two quick points. First, I find myself, as often has been the case, agreeing with Grub. It seems to me that if anyone has a good understanding of the dynamic of alliances on Planet Bob, it's him.

Second, I want to note that those who think this war will change anything in the long run, as I see it at least, are sorely mistaken. This isn't about the Karma alliances being similar to the Hegemony alliances or anything of that sort. I'm not making an argument regarding how the Karma folks are equally as bad as the Hegemony folks or anything like that (indeed, I don't believe that the Hegemony folks were bad, I think they did what they believed reasonable to establish what they viewed as order in a world that would otherwise be chaotic).

My contention is that as long as there will be power differentials on Planet Bob and as long as there are folks who are of the belief that there is a unique correct manner in which alliances should comport themselves, a code that should be followed in the interactions between alliances, and are willing to go to war with alliances that do not share their vision, there will always be a dominant group that will impose their will on other groups.

That being the case, as far as the charge of tyranny goes, it seems to me that while the ideological stance of the Hegemony alliances and the Karma alliances are arguably different, there will still be an in dominant group and an out suppressed group. Even if the Karma bloc dissolves and it does not become the new hegemon, folks like Margrave, which there are clearly a fair number, will take the reigns of power and force their vision on those who are unable to resist.

This war will likely mark a changing of the guard but there will be a guard nonetheless, that guard will just be defending a different set of principles.

[RandomInterrupt]

Here is AlmightyGrub's pro-tip. Let bygones be truly bygones when this war is over. Wipe the slate clean and start again, you will find it as refreshing as I did. It is funny when you talk to the other side, after the dust has settled, you find that most of the time you aren't really all that different.

If it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees, perhaps not forcing people to live on their knees will breed a different world?

This is sad to see. Alliances like Polar are different from alliances like the NPO. There is a difference because some of us cultivated said differences. In the same time where you found out that we aren't all that different I was discovering how different some of us are. It was eye opening for sure.

In regards to the rest of your post, you state that you will "come for" those who would dispatch harsh terms. Why? You are not a part of Karma nor a part of the opposition to it. You have no say. If Polar were to have been a part of Karma I am sure it would be better off and your views would be important in shaping it, but from the outside you are the same as the rest of us spectators.

You also state that you will not tolerate harsh terms against those who saddled you with harsh terms. I can understand that I guess. What I don't understand is why so many seem to think that all there needs to be is brutal hardcore terms and white peace. There is a balance and that balance is to match the punishment to the crime. If the punishment is too light, then the crimes will be repeated. So it is my hope that when the NPO surrenders that Polar will not interfere further in the war that they are not a part of and allow Karma to deliver terms that are appropriate and will lead to putting the NPO in a place where the rest of us can actually go about our business again.

Edited May 5, 2009 by RandomInterrupt

[enderland]

Actually in last month Viceroyalty on GATO was removed and alliances cleared their ZI lists and took a new stance on ZIs, away from the P/EZis. If there was anything good happened from perspective of Karma, it was the last month actually lol :/ So its like saying we're getting punished for removing Viceroyalty from GATO and removing ZIs.

Just for the record, for the entire time I have been in this game, Pacifica has been very clear to make a PR campaign before embarking on large scale wars.

It is not an accident to me those actions happened right before they started another war. Unfortunately for them the dove headfirst into a pit of non-convinced, angry people for a change.

[kpcurley]

Fair play is fair play is fair play. You can try to weaken my argument by inferring that I'm obsessed about an internet game as you like, but it doesn't change the facts.

Your right It doesn't change the the facts. The facts are you exude bitterness. And such bitterness has made you petty. Such pettiness will lead you to the ultimate hypocrisy.

[Isaac Wolfe]

A group of nations in 1918 sat around a table at the former residence of the French king to decide what would be "fair" reparations for the terrible war they had just experienced. They created not a world that was free from war and tyranny, but a world that would be filled with war and oppression for the next 75 years.

Do yourselves a favor. Resist the temptation to raise the sword one more time.

Did they dismantle Germany? No.

They made them pay reparations to which they could not pay. What happened? Germany resurged in a tide of bitterness against the Allies.

In theory, if they had dismantled the German Empire, the infamous dictator could have never rallied the nation and achieve the prize of revenge.

Do you see the correlation? This is why Pacifica must be destroyed. So they can never rebuild and oppress us again.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Isaac Wolfe

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

You also state that you will not tolerate harsh terms against those who saddled you with harsh terms. I can understand that I guess. What I don't understand is why so many seem to think that all there needs to be is brutal hardcore terms and white peace. There is a balance and that balance is to match the punishment to the crime. If the punishment is too light, then the crimes will be repeated. So it is my hope that when the NPO surrenders that Polar will not interfere further in the war that they are not a part of and allow Karma to deliver terms that are appropriate and will lead to putting the NPO in a place where the rest of us can actually go about our business again.

Well said.

[jerdge]

it is only the Hegemony that has ever tried (and occasionally succeeded) in driving people from Planet Bob.

Are you being genuinely honest in this, or is yours an intentional revisionism? While the Hegemony has been accused to having sometimes persecuted players rather than characters, they were and they are not the only ones. Every time this subject is mentioned the name "Barakady" starts glowing bright in my mind...

(I apologize if this has been addressed already in the thread: the Search function doesn't seem to work anymore and I can't read everything!)

[caligula]

Taking a complex argument that states the people who betrayed the NPO should receive just terms and reducing it to a badly written scrawl is a beautiful non-argument. Please teach me more ways of indirectly insulting someone you disagree with, I'm all ears.

Am I overstating the hypocrisy?

:/ I don't think so.