An Open Letter to Archon and Karma at Large

[Lord GVChamp]

Harsh? Certainly? As harsh as NPO perma-ZI listing anyone who stays in peace mode? Not even close.

I thought the whole point of this thing was to NOT be dicks, but yeah.

[Captain Flinders]

So do you have a number of nations that slipped into peace mode during the negotiations or are you just making this up?

No I do not. But if you read the logs I did that were made public, you can easily see where Archon makes a note and the proceedings change accordingly.

I thought the whole point of this thing was to NOT be dicks, but yeah.

We certainly can be dicks. Just dicks to a lesser extent

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Speaking as a proud member of my Order. I was not ordered into peace mode. I saw the war coming. I will stand with my brothers and sisters in Pacifica til my nation burns around me....

And this whole war.. I'm going to be listening to Sabaton 40:1, while kicking tail, taking names, and slowly being ground to death if we lose. Otherwise, I'll see the traitors in their Berlin.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Vhalen]

I was a member of NPO for a very long time and I find it very hard to digest this sickening display of gangbanging on my former alliance.

Well, they've sort of set the standard, as far as that subject goes. It'd almost be rude not to.

Anyways, I'm off to Iceland for a week. I hope you all have fun kicking an alliance when its down.

CN history shows that's exactly when you're supposed to kick them. Then you get to make outrageous demands!

[TruHartBrakN]

No I do not. But if you read the logs I did that were made public, you can easily see where Archon makes a note and the proceedings change accordingly.

Yes I read the logs and I saw the accusation but I also saw where NPO denied fleeing to peace mode and I usually like to see real evidence of stuff before just giving one side the benefit of being correct. In this case, the logs seem to lean to the Karma leaders taking a "holier than thou" attitude (much like NPO used to take) and cutting off negotiations despite the fact that most of the terms were agreed to pretty quickly and painlessly. There was a term that had not been fully agreed to because of its wording and anyone with a brain can see why the NPO would refuse to admit to doctoring evidence that they didn't doctor. They did, however, agree to apologize, agree to financial terms, etc. It doesn't seem like they were taking their time to get out of peace mode, it seems very clear they were hashing out their terms for peace.

[Ejayrazz]

NO terms should have been agreed upon in my opinion.

[Earogema]

The fact that they started the war in such a disgusting manner, and would have gotten relatively light terms before a single shot had been fired is good enough.

Nobody expected Q to be rats.

[Captain Flinders]

Yes I read the logs and I saw the accusation but I also saw where NPO denied fleeing to peace mode and I usually like to see real evidence of stuff before just giving one side the benefit of being correct.

The what are you inferring? That Archon and Karma made up the story that NPO was fleeing to peace mode during the talks? I can tell you that I certainly recall people talking about NPO going to peace on IRC before the declarations were made.

despite the fact that most of the terms were agreed to pretty quickly and painlessly.

Now I know we didn't read the same logs. Talks pretty much went like this:

Archon: Here is our term.

Moo: I don't like it.

NPO cew: Ya it sucks.

Archon: It is as it is, accept or not.

Moo:Can I change this bit?

Archon: No.

NPO crew: but it really sucks!

Archon: Are we done here?

Moo: I want to agree but it still sucks.

Archon: You have our terms.

NPO crew: Can we change this bit?

Archon: No

Karma crew: Forget these fools

Moo: Don't forget us.

Archon: Do you agree to terms?

Moo: ok I agree

Repeat x6

Edited April 22, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Drai]

Because the NPO was stalling the talks to escape into peace mode. They forced Karma's hand. Not a good idea.

That's the bottom line.

[TruHartBrakN]

The what are you inferring? That Archon and Karma made up the story that NPO was fleeing to peace mode during the talks? I can tell you that I certainly recall people talking about NPO going to peace on IRC before the declarations were made.

Now I know we didn't read the same logs. Talks pretty much went like this:

Archon: Here is our term.

Moo: I don't like it.

NPO cew: Ya it sucks.

Archon: It is as it is, accept or not.

Moo:Can I change this bit?

Archon: No.

NPO crew: but it really sucks!

Archon: Are we done here?

Moo: I want to agree but it still sucks.

Archon: You have our terms.

NPO crew: Can we change this bit?

Archon: No

Karma crew: Forget these fools

Moo: Don't forget us.

Archon: Do you agree to terms?

Moo: ok I agree

Repeat x6

This is maybe the single worst post I have ever read. Thank god I have a week vacation to get over it. Take care all. Remember, mercy is the greatest show of strength.

[Rebel Virginia]

Are we allowed to bet donations? I'll wager a few on the fact those allies arent out of this war at all.

Yeah, those who canceled (with the exception of GGA and OG) were all lined up to be in Q's successor bloc, R. I'm pretty sure this is just a prank or something. We'll know soon enough.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Funny, if we were ordered to peace, it sure hadn't trickled down the lines. *Chuckles*

[Captain Flinders]

This is maybe the single worst post I have ever read. Thank god I have a week vacation to get over it. Take care all. Remember, mercy is the greatest show of strength.

I asked you a couple key questions to clarify your stance. Don't make a thread for discourse if you can't handle discourse.

[Prodigal Moon]

Having read the logs, it is kinda lame how just the way the one term was worded created such a hang-up. "Trumped up" is about as vague and subjective as it gets, and clearly Moo was ready to acknowledge his hypocrisy and satisfy the spirit of the term. Hopefully talks will reconvene to give that a chance to get worked out, now that there won't be much concern about peace mode.

Then again, I think about all the times NPO was rolling on alliances that were asking for terms, and they wouldn't even offer them the possibility of surrendering. Check my sig for more info. There's being the bigger person, and then there's being naive. Any terms that would leave NPO at more than half of its current strength would be pretty naive imho.

[TruHartBrakN]

I asked you a couple key questions to clarify your stance. Don't make a thread for discourse if you can't handle discourse.

I don't think suggesting that I thought Archon was lying is in anyway a key question. I also don't think that ridiculous "log" you posted in anyway characterizes the actual conversation that was held. I don't think NPO are without guilt and I do think they deserve punishment for their actions but this thread is about Archon and his inability to give more patience to a negotiation that was, in fact, making headway. Moo accepted a couple of terms and, like a good leader, attempted to hash out other terms to satisfy both Karma and his own alliance. But please, feel free to continue to use hyperbole to make your point.

[Captain Flinders]

I don't think suggesting that I thought Archon was lying is in anyway a key question.

Archon and others speaking on behalf of Karma have stated that NPO were using the talks as a stalling tactic to get more of their nations into peace mode. Now either that is true and the rush shown by Archon was warranted, or it is not true and Archon lied about the tactic and rushed he talks unnecessarily. From what you've said so far, it would appear that you believe the talks were rushed unnecessarily. By that logic, you must also then believe that the NPO was not stalling and not ordering their nations into peace mode and therefore believe that Archon was lying.

It's kinda sad that I had to explain all of that for you...

[uaciaut]

I don't get why you're calling out Archon on this tbh.

And last time i checked NPO declared, not Karma. What's the point of a war that ends in 1 day? Last time i checked NPO promised p-zi to all those whom won't leave peace mode because they were out-numbering them.

[DeathDealer]

TruHartBrakN, what would you do if over 150 nations of the alliance you were rolling suddenly jumped into peace mode? Archon had to make a decision quickly, wether or not the NPO nations were ordered into peace mode is completely irrelevant. The point is that it happened. Archon did the damn right thing and you know it, put your pride in your back pocket and man up.

[Lord of Destruction]

TruHartBrakN, what would you do if over 150 nations of the alliance you were rolling suddenly jumped into peace mode? Archon had to make a decision quickly, wether or not the NPO nations were ordered into peace mode is completely irrelevant. The point is that it happened. Archon did the damn right thing and you know it, put your pride in your back pocket and man up.

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous post. 2 days ago, ~110 people carrying the New Pacific Order AA in-game were in peace mode. Today, there are ~130. There are at any given time ~50+ ghosts of the New Pacific Order AA, something that can be found simply by looking at this for a few minutes. They're not hard to spot. Anyway, getting back to the actual point, 150+ people did not 'jump' into peace mode during talks, and I highly doubt we were ordering people into peace mode during them, because if we were, many more nations would be in peace mode.

He did not do "the damn right thing".

[Max Rockatansky]

The punishment should fit the crime. Seeing as how we don't support EZI, then that will not ever be the case here. Although given the nature of their crimes against many of those who stand with us, it would certainly be fair according to their rules. Problem is, we're not fighting their war their way. We're fighting our war, our way.

Terms should be harsh, as this is indeed an object lesson in what happens when you treat people like dogs. We're all in this for our own reasons as well as those of our alliance. I ask you though, OP... where were these pleas for mercy when NPO was the one bringing the hammer down for far, far, less? No... we'll not stoop to their level. But these demands for mercy are absurd to say the least. Walk a mile in our shoes, then you'll see why many of us are so angry.

P.S. I'm sure you meant no disrespect by your post and I've tried my best to take care that I've shown you none in return. So really, in the end, I guess you could say that that's why we fight. I know that's why I and many of my friends do. I never heard anyone say anything about us being the number one big dog once this is over, all I've ever heard from my allies is what I post here. Everything else is personal opinion, and should be treated as such. Include myself among that number.

[Sal Paradise]

I understand your history with the NPO and I can understand why you and your allies would want to watch the NPO burn.... but watching the NPO being abandoned by its so-called friends must have awakened something in you that made you realize that this is not how the mighty should fall.

This is precisely how the mighty should fall: at the hands of those they abused, without the hands of those they used.

[DeathDealer]

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous post. 2 days ago, ~110 people carrying the New Pacific Order AA in-game were in peace mode. Today, there are ~130. There are at any given time ~50+ ghosts of the New Pacific Order AA, something that can be found simply by looking at this for a few minutes. They're not hard to spot. Anyway, getting back to the actual point, 150+ people did not 'jump' into peace mode during talks, and I highly doubt we were ordering people into peace mode during them, because if we were, many more nations would be in peace mode.

He did not do "the damn right thing".

My apologies, I don't watch the pacifica stats daily (there WERE over 150 pacifica nations in peace mode when I checked). And I highly doubt Archon did/does either. Also, I never said that the NPO was ordered into pece mode. It just goes to show that your allies aren't the only cowards in this war. Fair enough regarding your point about the ghosts, but that still doesn't explain why 19 of your top 40 nations are in peace mode. I'm not going to delve deeper into your ranks, but correct if if I'm wrong in saying there's a definate trend going on within them.

The matter still stands the the NPO has lead countless curbstomps without ever offering peace terms in as short of a time as 3 days. Don't start crying when your own practices start being used against you.

[Darvel]

This makes no sense. NPO nations had plenty of time to get into peace mode before negotiations began. Unless you have evidence that these nations were being ordered into peace mode, then please kindly stop guessing NPO's strategy. Sorry if I'm taking this all a little personally but I was a member of NPO for a very long time and I find it very hard to digest this sickening display of gangbanging on my former alliance.

Anyways, I'm off to Iceland for a week. I hope you all have fun kicking an alliance when its down.

*DING* NPO policies for the last 2 years?

[JoshuaR]

I think the fact of the matter is that NPO is simply too strong. Having orchestrated an entire revolution against the ruling hegemon, does anyone honestly think that Karma is going to just back off and say, "good NPO, here's a peace"? No, of course they are going to smack the NPO down. It's time for another war and everyone wants some action.

Strategically, Karma is not going to stay together once the NPO is defeated. Without a common enemy to unify them it's only a matter of time before they split up and let NPO climb back to ascendancy.... about as long as it will take for their ex-allies to come running back with treaty proposals. It only makes sense that NPO needs to be dealt a severe blow to ensure cyberverse actually become multi-polar. Whether that is right or wrong morally speaking is another matter.

Karma should never had even pretended at a gesture that they were willing to offer terms, if that's the case. They should have just smacked the NPO down. They should have said that it was too late, and that the NPO would now reap what it had sown.

NO terms should have been agreed upon in my opinion.

Exactly.

I don't get why you're calling out Archon on this tbh.

And last time i checked NPO declared, not Karma. What's the point of a war that ends in 1 day? Last time i checked NPO promised p-zi to all those whom won't leave peace mode because they were out-numbering them.

He's calling Archon out because Karma was offering terms. The NPO was accepting them. Karma gave an ultimatum of one minute, while Moo was away, and then called it all off. karma should NEVER HAVE OFFERED TERMS.

And beyond that, if we're talking hypocrisy, to offer the NPO the terms they gave FAN (20% soldier) as Karma, to tell them that they had to admit to fabricating evidence for a CB (they fabricated nothing, it was just stupid and hypocritical to declare war over it), to load the room with people who simply want the NPO dead, it's the kind of thing that made them hate Pacifica! The NPO was never right to do what they did in the past, but to do it all back to them, under the pretense that this was happening for their past, was idiotic.

I am not siding with Pacifica over the war. They deserve it. They should be humiliated and struck down. Then they can be offered terms. Or, if one was serious about offering them terms in this meeting, one would have seriously given it a shot.

If I had been in charge, I would not have even allowed this meeting. Frankly, it's ridiculous. Destroy Pacifica and be done with it. Don't pretend moral outrage over the NPO's policies and actions if you are nothing but the same. Don't pretend to be any greater if all you seek is power, if you don't actually believe in the propaganda that you preach. Don't practice an eye for an eye. ...or the whole world will be blind.

Just cut off their heads.

Edited April 22, 2009 by JoshuaR

[magicninja]

NPO: We accept all the terms you've laid down so far.

Karma: You're preparing for peace!!!!!! We can't have that! These peace discussions are over!

Can't you see how silly you sound? If peace was reashable and it looked like it easily was then NPO nations being in Peace Mode after wouldn't have mattered one bit. Does anyone make that copnnection? You are all fools.

Pathetic. No honor at all.