An Open Letter to Archon and Karma at Large

[Paradigm]

I do not support harsh punishments laid down by any sides during a war.. Maybe I've just gotten old. You should consider reading this whole thread as I basically just said I don't even support it when *GASP* the NPO does it too.. Why do you think I joined TORN? And then NSO? There's a pattern of forgiveness and non-rep style warfare that I lean towards.

Fair enough - I was finding it odd that you seemed to be basicly arguing that Karma should turn CN into the CN : Hello kitty pet a unicorn version of political simulation.

Lets re-cap(If I'm not mistaken)

PZI is off the table

Viceroy is off the table

Permanent war is off the table

disbandment is off the table

OH NOES - Karma didnt let NPO dictate the contents of the un-precedented PRE-WAR surrender terms (boo hoo)

Seems like Karma is doing a pretty damm good job of trying to achieve objects and at the same time set new limits for retribution.

[TruHartBrakN]

Fair enough - I was finding it odd that you seemed to be basicly arguing that Karma should turn CN into the CN : Hello kitty pet a unicorn version of political simulation.

Lets re-cap(If I'm not mistaken)

PZI is off the table

Viceroy is off the table

Permanent war is off the table

disbandment is off the table

OH NOES - Karma didnt let NPO dictate the contents of the un-precedented PRE-WAR surrender terms (boo hoo)

Seems like Karma is doing a pretty damm good job of trying to achieve objects and at the same time set new limits for retribution.

I may have missed an announcement (packing and boarding my puppy is awful stuff) but I didn't see any of those "off the table" as of yet. Insofar as Karma's performance on achievement and retribution, I am going to guess that remains to be seen.

[Paradigm]

I may have missed an announcement (packing and boarding my puppy is awful stuff) but I didn't see any of those "off the table" as of yet. Insofar as Karma's performance on achievement and retribution, I am going to guess that remains to be seen.

Well - If I'm proven wrong I will gladly put on a NPO supporter AA.

Enjoy your trip TruHartBrakN. The NPO you love will still be here in when you return and will be stronger having stood on its own having sluffed off the allies who deserted Pacifica.

[TruHartBrakN]

Well - If I'm proven wrong I will gladly put on a NPO supporter AA.

Enjoy your trip TruHartBrakN. The NPO you love will still be here in when you return and will be stronger having stood on its own having sluffed off the allies who deserted Pacifica.

Thanks buddy.. I hope you're right..

C'mon Archon, do it for my little lady..

Edited April 22, 2009 by TruHartBrakN

[enderland]

I think it's amusing how many people act like they speak for "Karma" as a whole in this thread.

Karma isn't even a defined organization or block for christs sake.

Most of the people talking about surrender terms aren't even warring NPO.

Going back a bit, TruHartBrakN, the reason I showed those peace mode nations is that those alliances very clearly expected to follow NPO and TORN into whatever conflict they ended up in, as there is no other reason to have them in peace mode (unless they want the economic penalty ).

[Sal Paradise]

Well stated yet the terms should not have been non-negotiable and there should have been more patience applied. I never said you should roll over like hippies, but that you should provide fair terms. Having NPO admit to doctoring evidence is not a fair term and neither is rushing to get a negotiation finished because 10 or 20 nations decided to be cowards.

I fail to see why the terms should not have been non-negotiable. The NPO attacked one of our allies and we were fully prepared to honour our treaties. To avoid this war, the NPO had to step up in a big way. To back down for us would have been cowardly and an insult to OV. We are not cowards and those of us allied to OV respect them. As Paradigm said, these pre-war surrenders terms are unprecedented. They show amazing good faith on our part. The terms were standard two years ago and by today's standards extremely tame. We since apologized for our impatience, but if impatience is our greatest crime I think I'll sleep well.

[Paradigm]

I think it's amusing how many people act like they speak for "Karma" as a whole in this thread.

Just in case this was directed at me I want to make it clear I make no such claim.

But when replying to certain statements on this board I feel I have enough knowledge of the situation to say what KARMA is not. (or at least what I hope it is not)

If any leaders of alliances that are part Karma want me to shutup - I will gladly accept requests.

[TruHartBrakN]

I fail to see why the terms should not have been non-negotiable. The NPO attacked one of our allies and we were fully prepared to honour our treaties. To avoid this war, the NPO had to step up in a big way. To back down for us would have been cowardly and an insult to OV. We are not cowards and those of us allied to OV respect them. As Paradigm said, these pre-war surrenders terms are unprecedented. They show amazing good faith on our part. The terms were standard two years ago and by today's standards extremely tame. We since apologized for our impatience, but if impatience is our greatest crime I think I'll sleep well.

Mercy and patience in pre-war terms, while unprecedented, would have been the best option in my opinion. I agree with most of your post but I still don't understand why MK would ask NPO to admit to fabricating evidence.

[HeroicDisaster]

NPO's allies dumped their individual treaties, Q and 1V are still around. Echelon decided to grow a pair and counter-declare right away, expect more counter-declarations tonight. Maybe that's what he realized?

[enderland]

Just in case this was directed at me I want to make it clear I make no such claim.

But when replying to certain statements on this board I feel I have enough knowledge of the situation to say what KARMA is not. (or at least what I hope it is not)

If any leaders of alliances that are part Karma want me to shutup - I will gladly accept requests.

I guess my frustration is now that alliance tags are MIA, everyone and their mother seems to have a personal piece of NPO to take back and it's bothering me. Even if it's just NPO this war ain't over any time soon.

I don't like NPO. I'll freely admit it. I do not like the way they conduct in game tactics. But to see everyone act like NPO has rolled over and died and it's time to divide up the spoils (after freaking 17 hours or so !!) is frustrating.

[Essenia]

Everyone seems to have forgotten Shark Week and Operation Overlord.

Both of which were completely awesome and nowhere near as bad as what NP has done. It is too bad people don't remember them much.

[Darvel]

I think it's amusing how many people act like they speak for "Karma" as a whole in this thread.

Karma isn't even a defined organization or block for christs sake.

Most of the people talking about surrender terms aren't even warring NPO.

Going back a bit, TruHartBrakN, the reason I showed those peace mode nations is that those alliances very clearly expected to follow NPO and TORN into whatever conflict they ended up in, as there is no other reason to have them in peace mode (unless they want the economic penalty ).

I speak only as the very long-term opposition to the NPO.

[Captain Flinders]

And how long will it be until "Karma" suddenly remembers that NPO didn't fight alone, and decides to make its former allies "sweat" as well by their "own tactics"? Until VE decides to get back at GGA for the Green Civil War, or MK decides that surrendering to VE, ML and Echelon in the Coalition War also needs vengeance, or remaining alliances from the Unjust war decide to strike back at those alliances still around that fought them?

We'll see. The war has only begun.

NPO is focused upon now because it is number one, and it is convenient for everyone to claim that "NPO controlled everyone". Whichever way this ends, the world will be split into many groups, and with the NPO no longer tied to them all, this excuse will no longer be enough.

NPO is focused on now because of their astronomical blunders in the OV situation. But I've seen more disdain and anger thrown at those who canceled on NPO than the NPO itself. Try not to analyze the situation too much so soon. Again, the war has only just begun.

[Sal Paradise]

Mercy and patience in pre-war terms, while unprecedented, would have been the best option in my opinion.

Mercy is not a reward for obstinance and insolence.

I agree with most of your post but I still don't understand why MK would ask NPO to admit to fabricating evidence.

Please try to remember that Archon was not speaking just for MK. He was speaking for all of Karma as our representative. Nor is MK currently at war with the NPO. If you read the logs, while Archon was not empowered to change the terms, there was a tacit agreement that that term could be elaborated on in the announcement. Moo's concern was that the community would selectively ignore that. It's hardly our fault that the NPO is reviled throughout the community.

[R&R-Viking]

The wheels fell off one bandwagon, and most will be hopping onto another.

No they haven't, it's another stall tactic. Watch at update.

[Paradigm]

I guess my frustration is now that alliance tags are MIA, everyone and their mother seems to have a personal piece of NPO to take back and it's bothering me. Even if it's just NPO this war ain't over any time soon.

I don't like NPO. I'll freely admit it. I do not like the way they conduct in game tactics. But to see everyone act like NPO has rolled over and died and it's time to divide up the spoils (after freaking 17 hours or so !!) is frustrating.

I think anyone making that claim with a straight face is in severe denial. NPO is not going to lie down and play dead. This is going to get a whole lot worse, for EVERYONE, before it gets better. I also dont think the battlefield has even been defined yet despite what the traitors of Q (sans NPO) posted last night. The next 48 hours will certainly help define the road we are all on.

[empirica]

Where was this outrage when Polaris was isolated last year and got kicked while they were down?

Ok, back on topic:

To be fair, you probably know the Pacifican leaders much better than I do, since you were a long time member of NPO. I can appreciate how hard it can be to see a former alliance suffer at the hands of the many.

However, I don't think the whole situation has played out yet. Despite many alliances taking the coward's way out of canceling treaties at (in)opportune times, NPO does still have some allies. And with so many of the people who canceled, later retracting, amending, or canceling those cancellations (just try and wrap your mind around that one!), this story is far from finished.

[Archon]

I apologize for taking so long to make my way to this topic. As I'm sure people understand, I've been busier than ever before

That being said, for certain reasons I do not feel being completely open about this topic, at least not until things have run their full course. I will observe that I personally wanted to give the NPO at least some chance for peace, and peace with terms that were not as bad as the worst they have given in the past. I fought long and hard for that, and I will admit it was the one time that I did not represent Karma as one full and unified entity. I have since made my amends for that. I will also admit that the close of negotiations was not handled as smoothly as it could have been, and that we acted on the intelligence we were receiving. I could go on in greater detail, but right now I haven't the time or energy to justify the actions, or at least work to reverse some of the most fallacious comments (for instance, the one minute remark, while made, wound up being null as there was far more than a minute given).

Instead, I think I'll just man up, apologize for a scenario that did not accurately reflect the goals, ideals, and principles of Karma and more importantly myself, and take this one on the chin. It was not my finest hour, and despite what many of you think I did not derive any enjoyment from it. I am not one to gloat over those who happen to find themselves beneath me, and I am also not a very large fan of war. Having lost so many of them, the reasons should be obvious.

Any terms that are inflicted upon the losers of this war I will feel personally, whether I am under them or administrating them. I will feel them because I have been under them before, and been under ones far worse than most of you can imagine.

I draw no pleasure from this conflict. I drew no pleasure from that night. I regret my conduct, and sincerely apologize for the blemish it has left. I would hope for a cleaner war, and I would really like it if people stopped taking such venomous potshots at each other. It just won't end well for either party.

[Detlev]

You and yours rushed out of that negotiation. That is not the Archon I know and that was not the honorable move. I am not in anyway backing NPO's war on OV, its obvious they made a mistake. Why then are you not big enough to allow them to make up for it? Why would you rush negotiations? For blood?

NPO walked out of talks with OV and declared on them like thugs and now you seem to be arguing that they don't deserve the same treatment.

And yes, you have been in NPO for a long time and watched while it stomped other alliances for horses#*! reasons so it is only appropriate that you rejoin them now and take your lumps as you deserve and as the logic in your OP would dictate.

Ah well you won't do that. It is easy to talk about honor and such but when the chips are down most everybody runs away.

[jerdge]

I see your good intentions, THBN, but you're confused and confusing, and probably quite, though not completely, not right.

Archon,

You have proven time and again that you stand for what is right in the world. That is why it surprised me today to read the logs (that should probably not have been dumped) of you and your Karma allies discussing peace terms with the NPO on Tuesday. Why was there such a rush to come to terms? If you were genuinely interested in peace, why did you not have the decency to reconsider the wording on the third term that seemed to not be very well stated/written. Why did you not act with forgiveness in your heart and why are you not quick to bring peace to the NPO today?

You probably answered that yourself:

I understand your history with the NPO and I can understand why you and your allies would want to watch the NPO burn.... but watching the NPO being abandoned by its so-called friends must have awakened something in you that made you realize that this is not how the mighty should fall. The logs are enough, you had the leaders of Pacifica at your knees saying they would accept terms.

You and yours rushed out of that negotiation. That is not the Archon I know and that was not the honorable move. I am not in anyway backing NPO's war on OV, its obvious they made a mistake. Why then are you not big enough to allow them to make up for it? Why would you rush negotiations? For blood?

Well now you have your blood and I hope it is worth it.

THBN

This is a game and talking of "honour" from an Out Of Character perspective is quite weird.

[Paradigm]

Archon quote

I'm suprised you even felt the need to apologize frankly. I think you did a fantastic job given the circumstances. Sure, I guess things could have been handled differently but I dont know many who could hold the balance you did - I know you HAVE to have been under severe pressure from many sides and I think you found the balance well being the voice for Karma. I will personally admit I'm very proud of the Karma side taking shape and trying to balance the difficult task ahead.

[Guido]

It's not our fault that NPO's allies ended up being cowards.

NPO was/is way past the point where they deserved/deserve white peace. They started this war, don't forget that. They dug their own grave starting a war they couldn't win. Why should anyone be obligated, morally or otherwise, to let them off relatively free?

Just curious...but isn't this the very thing that you claim is so terrible about us? You say that forcing alliances to pay reps rather than get white peace is what makes us terrible people...and yet you wouldn't do the same for us? How's that hypocrisy for you...

[Darvel]

Just curious...but isn't this the very thing that you claim is so terrible about us? You say that forcing alliances to pay reps rather than get white peace is what makes us terrible people...and yet you wouldn't do the same for us? How's that hypocrisy for you...

Quote to me the place where someone said all conflicts should end with white peace.

[Caliph]

This is maybe the single worst post I have ever read. Thank god I have a week vacation to get over it. Take care all. Remember, mercy is the greatest show of strength.

I believe in the saying "treat others how you want to be treated".

The NPO has never shown mercy in the past. The NPO has sentenced nations who stayed in peace mode to perma ZI. The NPO has given out incredibly harsh surrender terms.

So why again should we show the NPO mercy?

And how long will it be until "Karma" suddenly remembers that NPO didn't fight alone, and decides to make its former allies "sweat" as well by their "own tactics"? Until VE decides to get back at GGA for the Green Civil War, or MK decides that surrendering to VE, ML and Echelon in the Coalition War also needs vengeance, or remaining alliances from the Unjust war decide to strike back at those alliances still around that fought them?

And how long then, until they turn on each other and use the same "tactics" on each other, for the "tactics" they just used on these other alliances? You think this is absurd? Everyone seems to have forgotten Shark Week and Operation Overlord. Sponge's actions are rarely referenced. But the response to these events is used as justification for the conflicts of today.

How long till we come full circle?

NPO is focused upon now because it is number one, and it is convenient for everyone to claim that "NPO controlled everyone". Whichever way this ends, the world will be split into many groups, and with the NPO no longer tied to them all, this excuse will no longer be enough.

So stop hiding behind your veil of supposed absolute morality, and admit to yourself that this talk of "change" is a sham, and the true goal here is to weaken the Order as much as possible.

You can condemn us all you want, but at least we have never hid that we always acted in response to what might damage our sovereignty, without wrapping it up in some faux morality and stamping it with the word change.

No, the NPO is being hit because the NPO has indeed manipulated alliances and outright betrayed others. They have issued increasingly harsher surrender terms each and every war they have fought, they have stood aside and bent treaties so they wouldn't be "forced" to come to their treaty partners aid in wars.

The NPO and those alliances being hit today are being hit not because NPO is number 1, but because they all have commited atrocities or outright supported atrocities to occur. Enough is enough, we will not stand for abuse at the hands of the NPO any longer. They had power, they claimed that rule under the NPO hegemony would be just and honorable, and we have seen the lie to that statement.

The time for NPO hegemony has ended, and it ended when the NPO first betrayed GOONS, \m/, TPF, and Gen[m]ay in the Unjust War.

The NPO had this coming for a long time, and has treated other alliances with no mercy. They have orchastrated many beat down wars, sentenced people who went to peace mode with EZI, and have generally treated others with no mercy.

Why then should they receive any mercy when the boot is on the other foot?

Edited April 24, 2009 by Caliph

[TruHartBrakN]

I'm on vacation where the women are absolutely incredible by the way. Now that it seems NPO's allies (or some of them, I haven't had the chance to catch up) have decided against being pansies, this thread could probably be closed if a moderator doesn't mind. Thanks to all for the debate...