Official IRON Announcement

[Ogaden]

Is he on one of your ZI lists by chance? How about Chris Kaos, you know, the guy that your alliance and IRON chased across rerolls and destroyed an entire alliance over even though he wasn't attempting to threaten you... or actually playing the game anymore...

And if you don't like the community's reaction to IRON's vague threat of putting someone back on a ZI list if they think or act the "wrong way" you could do something about it. Declaring an end to the NPO's use of ZI list (heck and viceroys) would be a neat move.

I'm sure you'd find something else to complain about, like our existence for instance.

[Dephire]

Putting someone through PZI/EZI is simply telling someone how they can play the game for the rest of their CN career.

Rerolling may help, but information is always spilled.

I see no justifications to enact such terrible acts of harassment and 'bullying'.

[Bakunin's Dream]

IC: P/E ZI is a barbaric practice that we as a group of national leaders could outlaw. The fact that you and your alliance chooses not to certainly says something negative about ya'lls character.

Okay but that's a different argument that I'd have a different response to. He was arguing that it's an "OOC attack" when it isn't. Speaking of that argument, it's nothing more than that old chestnut, "[it's] bad." Never mind why someone might receive this punishment, what motivations there could be for using it, and what various kinds of circumstances might dictate. That kind of unexamined categorical statement is exactly why I have a hard time taking this kind of rhetoric seriously.

[Ragashingo]

I'm sure you'd find something else to complain about, like our existence for instance.

Why would I complain about the existence of a presumably now like minded alliance?

[empirica]

Congrats to JB on new found freedom. My crystal ball is broken, I have no ability to tell what IRON may do in any given circumstance regarding JB. I would hope that common sense and some sense of fair play would prevail. I would also hope to see IRON adopt a more humane policy on the use PZI or EZI. But I have my alliance to run, they have theirs. It is ultimately their choice.

[Earogema]

I think I'll actually do the list thing.

Doitzel, Deamon Vower, banned member, 404 Error, flpwch, jazzi, banned member (jazz man but with a y), Electron Sponge, MegaAros (I know I'm there), SAMulticore, mpol, Schattenmann, Chunky_Monkey, Starfox101

The list goes on really. Even if you don't actually record these names, it's obvious that Bilrow would see all of the GOONS to P/EZI. All of the Voxians were confirmed by yourself Bakunin, back when Vox was formed. The founders even moreso. Granted, it's possible to get off, but those people listed are just some of those that if they came back (and were allowed to play by the mods OOC) would be hunted until they are found.

Edited April 15, 2009 by MegaAros

[Bakunin's Dream]

Sarcasm or not my question still stands.

No it doesn't. The point was it's laughable to suppose that there would be anything north of an uncouth sneer from the Vox/Order-hater corner. They don't hate what we do, they hate us for being successful and the talking points of the day are transient and unimportant. In a world of change this is one thing that stays the same.

[Ragashingo]

Okay but that's a different argument that I'd have a different response to. He was arguing that it's an "OOC attack" when it isn't. Speaking of that argument, it's nothing more than that old chestnut, "[it's] bad." Never mind why someone might receive this punishment, what motivations there could be for using it, and what various kinds of circumstances might dictate. That kind of unexamined categorical statement is exactly why I have a hard time taking this kind of rhetoric seriously.

I don't care what dumb IC / OCC line you draw in the sand, it's still wrong.

In my opinion there are no reasons, motivations, or circumstance that ever make E/P ZI a desirable form of punishment.

[Bakunin's Dream]

I think I'll actually do the list thing.

Doitzel, Deamon Vower, banned member, 404 Error, flpwch, jazzi, banned member (jazz man but with a y), Electron Sponge, MegaAros (I know I'm there), SAMulticore, mpol, Schattenmann, Chunky_Monkey, Starfox101

The list goes on really. Even if you don't actually record these names, it's obvious that Bilrow would see all of the GOONS to P/EZI. All of the Voxians were confirmed by yourself Bakunin, back when Vox was formed. The founders even moreso. Granted, it's possible to get off, but those people listed are just some of those that if they came back (and were allowed to play by the mods OOC) would be hunted until they are found.

You should talk to Moo about that because I'm looking at the actual list and I found yours highly inaccurate.

[Ragashingo]

No it doesn't. The point was it's laughable to suppose that there would be anything north of an uncouth sneer from the Vox/Order-hater corner. They don't hate what we do, they hate us for being successful and the talking points of the day are transient and unimportant. In a world of change this is one thing that stays the same.

I would praise you, and wouldn't sneer. I do hate what you don and I don't hate you for being successful. If your alliance ended its use of ZI lists and viceroys and my Vox friends criticized you for it then I would no longer call them my friends and would defend you on that issue with an equal or greater zeal than I attack you. I would hope that everyone else in this topic feels this way.

[Chunky Monkey]

I think I'll actually do the list thing.

Doitzel, Deamon Vower, banned member, 404 Error, flpwch, jazzi, banned member (jazz man but with a y), Electron Sponge, MegaAros (I know I'm there), SAMulticore, mpol, Schattenmann, Chunky_Monkey, Starfox101

The list goes on really. Even if you don't actually record these names, it's obvious that Bilrow would see all of the GOONS to P/EZI. All of the Voxians were confirmed by yourself Bakunin, back when Vox was formed. The founders even moreso. Granted, it's possible to get off, but those people listed are just some of those that if they came back (and were allowed to play by the mods OOC) would be hunted until they are found.

yeah apparently Im not on NPO's ZI list. still on IRON's though.

[Bakunin's Dream]

I don't care what dumb IC / OCC line you draw in the sand, it's still wrong.

In my opinion there are no reasons, motivations, or circumstance that ever make E/P ZI a desirable form of punishment.

I'm going to nuke you, reroll, build up to the point where I can do as much damage as possible, nuke you again, reroll, nuke you again, and continue ad infinitum for the rest of my existence. How many times would I have to do this before you might consider doing something about it?

Edited April 15, 2009 by Bakunin's Dream

[Earogema]

You should talk to Moo about that because I'm looking at the actual list and I found yours highly inaccurate.

Once again.

It is pointless to drone on about some list, because we BOTH know you will ZI a person if they are on a list or not, if you see fit. The only reason that those individuals aren't actually on any list is simply because most aren't around this world anymore. The moment they come back is the moment you send in the hounds.

[Bakunin's Dream]

Once again.

It is pointless to drone on about some list, because we BOTH know you will ZI a person if they are on a list or not, if you see fit. The only reason that those individuals aren't actually on any list is simply because most aren't around this world anymore. The moment they come back is the moment you send in the hounds.

Really? I don't know that.

[o ya baby]

I'm going to nuke you, reroll, build up to the point where I can do as much damage as possible, nuke you again, reroll, nuke you again, and continue ad infinitum for the rest of my existence. How many times would I have to do this before you might consider doing something about it?

(ooc)I surely wouldn't track you between nations. So what if the person behind the monitor holds a grudge? The character is new in the game and you have no right to keep someone from rerolling and playing. If I want to nuke you and reroll, you shouldn't be able to come and hound my nation and blow it up while it hasn't done anything wrong. It's just not right to track IPs across nations so you can beat someone up who pissed you off in a past life.(ooc)

Edited April 15, 2009 by o ya baby

[Earogema]

I'm going to nuke you, reroll, build up the point where I can do as much damage as possible, nuke you again, reroll, nuke you again, and continue ad infinitum for the rest of my existence. How many times would I have to do this before you might consider doing something about it?

I say go ahead. A good war is nice once in a while. I've been nuked 7 times, and I have no ill will for those that nuked me.

[Sal Paradise]

OOC: It can be stopped by Admin. He posted in a thread and listened to people tell him why they thought he should stop it. He decided not to, not because he couldn't, but because he rejected their arguments and didn't want to rule something an "OOC attack" that clearly isn't. Everything you are saying was said there and it was decided that this argument does not hold water.

OOC: Unfortunately for Admin, while he may be the authority of this game, his word does not decide whether an argument holds water. But this isn't about Admin's ruling on staff interference in the issue, and I won't be discussing that because it's against the rules. This is about our community. It's an OOC attack because you are chasing a player around the game through various nations systemically preventing them from playing the game not because of their characters, but because of the person. How is that not OOC?

Edit: Keep in mind that I'm not calling it an OOC attack in an attempt to discredit the practice with CN's version of Godwin's Law. I don't believe that OOC attacks are universal evils. There are permissible things done in this game to its detriment far worse than the suggestion of the frequency of one's sexual activity.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Lord of the Mayflies]

I'm going to nuke you, reroll, build up to the point where I can do as much damage as possible, nuke you again, reroll, nuke you again, and continue ad infinitum for the rest of my existence. How many times would I have to do this before you might consider doing something about it?

I would make friends with said dedicated person and set them on my enemies.. Seriously though how often do people actually do this and it makes you say anything more than, 'damn, this guy is a committed mofugga is he not'.

[Earogema]

Really? I don't know that.

It's what happens when you have Bilrow in Milcom and a few of the names up there are GOONS that he has scores to settle with.

[Ragashingo]

I'm going to nuke you, reroll, build up the point where I can do as much damage as possible, nuke you again, reroll, nuke you again, and continue ad infinitum for the rest of my existence. How many times would I have to do this before you might consider doing something about it?

I would do something about it each and every time. Me and my alliance would take you to ZI then let you go free. You wouldn't even need to do the reroll thing.

Thats what you don't seem to get. Just playing the game by attacking someone should never merit holding them down so they can't play the game again.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Bakunin's Dream]

I surely wouldn't track you between nations. So what if the person behind the monitor holds a grudge? The character is new in the game and you have no right to keep someone from rerolling and playing. If I want to nuke you and reroll, you shouldn't be able to come and hound my nation and blow it up while it hasn't done anything wrong. It's just not right to track IPs across nations so you can beat someone up who pissed you off in a past life.

How the sweet Jesus is it a "past life" if all I'm doing with my new nation is using it as a means to the same end, for the same reasons, that I was pursuing before I rerolled? This is the principal contradiction in the anti-perma ZI argument: an almost religious refusal to conceive of what other reasons someone might have for rerolling besides "starting a new nation/character/whatever" that bears no relation to the old one.

[Virillus]

I'm going to nuke you, reroll, build up to the point where I can do as much damage as possible, nuke you again, reroll, nuke you again, and continue ad infinitum for the rest of my existence. How many times would I have to do this before you might consider doing something about it?

This is where your argument breaks down. Because it's not "him" that comes back and nukes you, it's somebody else.

Besides, most of the world subscribes to a belief in the presumption of innocence, that the benefit of the doubt goes to the accused. Not the belief that "somebody might come back and hurt us maybe, so let's ruin his ability to enjoy this game just so we can save a little bit of infra."

It all comes down to tolerance, and those who practice PZI/EZI don't have any.

[o ya baby]

How the sweet Jesus is it a "past life" if all I'm doing with my new nation is using it as a means to the same end, for the same reasons, that I was pursuing before I rerolled? This is the principal contradiction in the anti-perma ZI argument: an almost religious refusal to conceive of what other reasons someone might have for rerolling besides "starting a new nation/character/whatever" that bears no relation to the old one.

See that thing called a "ruler name"? If it's different, it's a different character. That's where your argument loses weight. It's a different ruler and should be treated as such.

[Ragashingo]

How the sweet Jesus is it a "past life" if all I'm doing with my new nation is using it as a means to the same end, for the same reasons, that I was pursuing before I rerolled? This is the principal contradiction in the anti-perma ZI argument: an almost religious refusal to conceive of what other reasons someone might have for rerolling besides "starting a new nation/character/whatever" that bears no relation to the old one.

And the principal contradiction in the pro-perma ZI argument is an almost religious refusal to conceive that most of us don't find someone playing the game (and playing it well if you are continually able to get nukes, my nation is 51 days old and not even close to nukes) to be worthy of eternal punishment.

[Ejayrazz]

OOC: Unfortunately for Admin, while he may be the authority of this game, his word does not decide whether an argument holds water. But this isn't about Admin's ruling on staff interference in the issue, and I won't be discussing that because it's against the rules. This is about our community. It's an OOC attack because you are chasing a player around the game through various nations systemically preventing them from playing the game not because of their characters, but because of the person. How is that not OOC?

Edit: Keep in mind that I'm not calling it an OOC attack in an attempt to discredit the practice with CN's version of Godwin's Law. I don't believe that OOC attacks are universal evils. There are permissible things done in this game to its detriment far worse than the suggestion of the frequency of one's sexual activity.

Valid point with your ooc connection. EZI is ooc, end of story.