Bring the Boys Back Home

[Captain Flinders]

No matter the reasons for war and no matter the personal vendettas, it's time for peace. Let there be peace in our time.

[Vilien]

No matter the reasons for war and no matter the personal vendettas, it's time for peace. Let there be peace in our time.

Not peace in our time, but peace for all time.

[Triyun]

For Self determination to be truly that, that includes one being able to inflict harm on another. Self Determination is a farce because in a world of scarcity it has a tendency to cause someone to self determine to take from the weak.

[Hydro]

In 226 posts, I have seen 1 post from a member of FAN and that post had nothing to do with obtaining peace. Now, I realize that peace treaties are negotiated in private, however, I don't see so much as a single sentament from FAN that they want peace with NPO. Instead, this thread has descended into a !@#$fest where NPO and its detractors continue to hurl irrelevant garbage at one another to absolutely no result.

FAN's silence is deafening and I'm suprised no one else has commented on it.

[Vilien]

For Self determination to be truly that, that includes one being able to inflict harm on another. Self Determination is a farce because in a world of scarcity it has a tendency to cause someone to self determine to take from the weak.

What scarcity?

[Ogaden]

As someone who has firsthand experience with FAN's unorthodox fund-raising techniques, FAN has basically two types of nations. The peace-moders, who receive aid and sit there stockpiling nuclear weapons for "That Day", and the fund-raisers, who raid NPO and IRON tech sellers.

As FAN is very fond of pointing out, FAN has not been decisively defeated, and are still very much at war with us and capable of causing damage to us, and have in fact grown in strength, albeit somewhat slowly, over the last year.

[Paradigm]

In 226 posts, I have seen 1 post from a member of FAN and that post had nothing to do with obtaining peace. Now, I realize that peace treaties are negotiated in private, however, I don't see so much as a single sentament from FAN that they want peace with NPO. Instead, this thread has descended into a !@#$fest where NPO and its detractors continue to hurl irrelevant garbage at one another to absolutely no result.

FAN's silence is deafening and I'm suprised no one else has commented on it.

Guess that happens when the big guns are sent out to hurl irrelevant garbage at the detractors?

FWIW- I thought this would be a 1 page thread by the way - it was meant to be prologue for a larger series and hardly the most controversial of subjects to start things off with.

[atrophis]

In 226 posts, I have seen 1 post from a member of FAN and that post had nothing to do with obtaining peace. Now, I realize that peace treaties are negotiated in private, however, I don't see so much as a single sentament from FAN that they want peace with NPO. Instead, this thread has descended into a !@#$fest where NPO and its detractors continue to hurl irrelevant garbage at one another to absolutely no result.

FAN's silence is deafening and I'm suprised no one else has commented on it.

FAN wants peace, but not at the cost of throwing ourselves in front of another train. We tried to make peace before, and it was used as an opportunity to farm tech and practice war.

The reason for wanting nothing but white peace is that it leaves our enemies no ability to declare again for "breaking terms". The reason our enemies won't give us white peace is for that very reason.

[Dan123123]

I find so many parts of this discussion ludicrous.

I will state things plainly.

FAN tried to destroy us. FAN presently tries to destroy us.

Now let's parse some words one by one. We'll start with the first sentence. We will continue fighting them until they cease to do so.

"FAN." That refers to the Federated Armed Nations. "Tried." That refers to their alliance, as a whole, knowingly having done something. "To destroy us" is that something, "us" being the New Pacific Order.

Now the next sentence. "FAN" still the same as before. "Presently" means now, as in the present. Not the past, not the future, but the now. "Tries" refers to their alliance, as a whole, knowingly doing something. Now, remember, there was an adverb before "tries" and that was "presently," so keep in mind what "presently" means when considering "tries." "Destroy us" is that something again, us being the New Pacific Order.

I like to think I'm a decently intelligence guy. I can recognize patterns. It's a hallmark of making us the most intelligence animal in the Kingdom. The pattern I see is that FAN sincerely wants and tries to destroy us. Them no longer wanting and trying to sincerely destroy us is a pre-condition for me to even begin not viewing them as my enemy. No talk of terms, no talk of peace, no talk of anything before that pre-condition is met, with them or any other enemy.

I am inclined to agree with the New Pacific Order that so long as FAN is actively trying to destroy their order, as they have no moral obligation or any obligation to give FAN peace. However, I was initially perplexed by this notion that FAN has shown a repeated pattern of trying to actively destroy the NPO and that that is the reason for this conflict seems to conflict with the very reasons for war given in the original declaration.

The reasons for this war point to the NPO wishing to enforce its terms on FAN and to prove that there are consequences for breaking terms. (Which is a perfectly valid cause for war) I may be mistaken (OOC: I did not read any post past the OP) but I did not see where it was stated that the second FAN war was meant to placate an obvious threat preemptively, which seems to be the claim being made by the New Pacific Order.

It is worth reiterating that the New Pacific Order should not give in to public whims concerning this matter, so long that it remains true that FAN was a threat, is a threat, and has shown itself willing to continue to be a threat in the future. If FAN is a threat to their security, they have no obligation to listen to any other party concerning granting them peace, especially when those parties would greatly benefit from the destruction of Pacifica (Read: Vox)

However, FAN was not attacked (in the second war) for being a threat, as far as the official declaration goes. If I am wrong, I have no problem accepting that fact. I am, however, inclined to believe that as the war progressed, the reasons for continuing the war changed. The war changed from one of enforcement into one of eliminating a threat, for Pacifica at least.

Now, FAN claims it is simply defending itself from the tyranny[sic] of the New Pacific Order. They claim the terms of surrender were not fair, and that the New Pacific Order came to the wrong conclusion and unjustly attacked them. It was then followed by about 20 announcements by disgruntle FAN members claiming the NPO is evil and unjust. Nearly 100 pages of arguing back and forth between NPO and FAN ensued about that Casus Belli for war and its validity. NPO claimed their actions were perfectly warranted, FAN said they weren't. Neither side wanted to give in an inch in its claims. (The NPO could have confronted FAN, FAN could have policed itself better, why should we wait for FAN to police themselves, if we had attacked 1/3 their membership we would still be lambasted, they could have done this, those guys could have done that, etc..)

It seems this war has turned into that same back and forth type of issue. Neither side wants to give the other a victory, however Pyrrhic that victory may be. If NPO allows FAN to exist, it is still a win for FAN. They survived, and their goal was to survive. FAN would have won on their terms, no matter how ridiculous a notion that may be from a statistical, logistical, and military standpoint. They never have intended to win on those terms. FAN was crushed militarily, but they would have remained a threat. FAN may not even consider it a victory, but clearly Pacifica's goal is to eliminate a threat and FAN will not stop being a threat until NPO stops attacking them. FAN's means of achieving its goal is to threaten and attack Pacifica until they are given peace. Pacfica is going to attack FAN until FAN leaves peace mode and stops spying. These goals directly conflict, and since neither side is willing to compromise this war continues. And that is not taking into consideration the fears both sides have of the future. NPO sees a trend of FAN plotting to destroy their order, and is wary if that continuing after peace. To them, FAN resents them so much, that a very viable option for FAN would be to seek revenge against NPO. FAN is concerned NPO will 'throw them in front of a train.' They see a history of NPO breaking agreements and see no reason for that pattern to simply cease. All of these reasons have led to the merry-go-round that is this war. It seems the initial reasons for war and the initial rhetoric of both sides has long since become moot.

Until either Pacifica or FAN decide to give up (of course, to others this would simply be 'being the bigger man.' Sacrificing pride and showing mercy.' Or, the war may simply become untenable for one of the sides) or one of them dies, there will be war. And frankly, FAN or Pacifica allowing an enemy to gain such a victory would be a sign of weakness and defeat in their eyes. They both want to survive. They both want to win. To be fair to both sides, that's their choice and it is entirely understandable from their respective point of views. To others, this is stubbornness and needless violence.

An old legend from lgtromm comes to mind.

"Well," says Buck, "a feud is this way: A man

has a quarrel with another man, and kills him; then

that other man's brother kills HIM; then the other

brothers, on both sides, goes for one another; then

the COUSINS chip in -- and by and by everybody's killed

off, and there ain't no more feud. But it's kind of

slow, and takes a long time."

"Has this one been going on long, Buck?"

"Well, I should RECKON! It started thirty year ago,

or som'ers along there. There was trouble 'bout

something, and then a lawsuit to settle it; and the

suit went agin one of the men, and so he up and shot

the man that won the suit -- which he would naturally

do, of course. Anybody would."

"What was the trouble about, Buck? -- land?"

"I reckon maybe -- I don't know."

"Well, who done the shooting? Was it a Granger-

ford or a Shepherdson?"

"Laws, how do I know? It was so long ago."

"Don't anybody know?"

"Oh, yes, pa knows, I reckon, and some of the

other old people; but they don't know now what the

row was about in the first place."

Edited March 31, 2009 by Dan123123

[Adrian LaCroix]

My guess is that maybe, just maybe, if FAN were given peace, they'd stop spying and scamming aid from the alliances at war with them.

Just a thought.

[Hydro]

FAN wants peace, but not at the cost of throwing ourselves in front of another train. We tried to make peace before, and it was used as an opportunity to farm tech and practice war.

The reason for wanting nothing but white peace is that it leaves our enemies no ability to declare again for "breaking terms". The reason our enemies won't give us white peace is for that very reason.

Fair enough. This does lead to the question, which is whether or not FAN is ready to unequivically renounce a state of warfare against the NPO, including the use of spies, and put such a sentiment in writing. From what has been said publically, I get the impression that NPO wouldn't be adverse to a white peace if you were willing to end the guerilla war; that said, I also realize that people rarely tell the full story in the full light of day. It seems to me that if you were to publically have each member of your alliance independently pledge to end the violence in the alliance politics subsection, the NPO would be put in something of an embarassing situation were they to refuse. Just my 2 cents though.

[atrophis]

Fair enough. This does lead to the question, which is whether or not FAN is ready to unequivically renounce a state of warfare against the NPO, including the use of spies, and put such a sentiment in writing. From what has been said publically, I get the impression that NPO wouldn't be adverse to a white peace if you were willing to end the guerilla war; that said, I also realize that people rarely tell the full story in the full light of day. It seems to me that if you were to publically have each member of your alliance independently pledge to end the violence in the alliance politics subsection, the NPO would be put in something of an embarassing situation were they to refuse. Just my 2 cents though.

There has never been a question of whether or not FAN would end it's war against the NPO and her allies if they did the same. I'm not sure what stating that in the AP would do for us as it has always been the case.

[Hydro]

There has never been a question of whether or not FAN would end it's war against the NPO and her allies if they did the same. I'm not sure what stating that in the AP would do for us as it has always been the case.

The function of such a move would be to, at worst, demonstrate the illogical and unjust nature of your opponents and, at best, gain peace for your alliance. At this point you don't really have much to lose, save your reputation for sticking it to the man and possibly some infra should NPO decide to stab you in the back, but from what I've seen FAN isn't terribly affected by the loss of a few imaginary building blocks. Whatever the case, I've got to go so I'd like to end by wishing you good luck in gaining peace.

[o-dog]

Not the most edifying of reads, these past missives from my fellow statesmen and one that leaves a general sadness.

NPO was truly great in her rise to power, but now she seems moribund. It is like the most wonderful princess who was scared to live her life once her full beauty was known in case the very experience diminished her charms. NPO, you have treasures beyond the wildest dreams of many a small alliance, yet your fear of losing them has ossified your essence. You now sit in your room, lovingly admiring your self-image and, as the world passes you by, you grow not wiser, just older. You have long stopped asking yourself - what could we do with all that we have!

And for those of you politely asking NPO to do what you so obviously want: Why don't you join together and demand? Would it be the end of the world?

[Mr. Smyth]

In 226 posts, I have seen 1 post from a member of FAN and that post had nothing to do with obtaining peace. Now, I realize that peace treaties are negotiated in private, however, I don't see so much as a single sentament from FAN that they want peace with NPO. Instead, this thread has descended into a !@#$fest where NPO and its detractors continue to hurl irrelevant garbage at one another to absolutely no result.

FAN's silence is deafening and I'm suprised no one else has commented on it.

There has been several posts both here and in other threads that FAN government and membership have expressed a willingness to seek peace.

The last official terms given from NPO on this matter was "die". Well, the Federation of Armed Nations as a collective decided that those terms were unacceptable. I'm sure that most all of you would agree that those terms would be unacceptable. FAN has no interest in "die"as terms to end this. Now if there was to be reasonable discussion and interest from NPO to end this we would be willing to discuss it. So far there has not been interest from them.

As a government official for FAN let me be clear on this matter, FAN is interested in ending this war. However we have no interest in quitting as terms for ending this war.

FAN has discussed peace with several alliances and has come to an agreement with many of them. As MoFA for FAN, along with being in Congress I have been active in those discussions. Out of respect for the safety of those alliances we have non conflict agreements with, both parties have agreed not to publish them. My hope is some day we will be able to publish those without putting those alliances in the cross hairs for a smack down.

edit: content clear up

Edited April 1, 2009 by Mr. Smyth

[Paradigm]

FAN has discussed peace with several alliances and has come to an agreement with many of them. As MoFA for FAN, along with being in Congress I have been active in those discussions. Out of respect for the safety of those alliances we have non conflict agreements with, both parties have agreed not to publish them. My hope is some day we will be able to publish those without putting those alliances in the cross hairs for a smack down.

Glad to see the foundation for peace is in place, at least on the periphery.

[GOONS]

I remember a similar debate I had with Generalissimo (of ODN fame) in another world (although the debate, which took place on an alliance board, was quickly deleted to save his blushes). There too many were against what the Order did, and there too the attacks would be refuted one by one; but there too the majority would let these refutation fly in one ear and out the other, because what they 'knew' was right in spite of the evidence. It was right by virtue of them learning that it was right and nothing would, or could, change their minds.

I'm reminded of many bearded old men and their wise words, from "history repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce" to "a political struggle is in its essence a struggle of interests and of forces, not of arguments." Of course, many of those hard-headed other-worldly figures ultimately came to change their minds through their own very real experiences, and as a result of leaving the comfort of their 'force' and running straight into the brick wall of reality they embraced Pacifica. I hope one day that you will do likewise.

Unless I am mistaken the war started when NPO said NoV was a protectorate then attacked FAN, eventually peace was reached then NPO claimed FAN broke the peace terms and attacked again. I was not around for it but that is what I see what happened, unless the declaration of war was just a cham for the real reason that Mpol was "planning" to take down NPO. These are the facts, the facts are also FAN survived the longest war in history on the planet bob and is surviving it. We all know FAN will survive it till CN dies if it ever does. So just let CN and FAN get back to growing and start having some fun it is a game after all. Games are made for "fun" not for anger, hate and despising each other.

[Denial]

There are no universal ethics as they are no universal morality.

Just because some do not fallow your sense of morality does not mean they does not have one. That is one of the more arrogant claims one can make.

Gee, that's funny, I seem to remember Pacifica launching various campaigns on the basis of enforcing their own moral code on others.

While I respect Vladimir's logic, it is the safe and smart thing to do, I do not share it. I would like to see FAN given peace in the hope they would rebuild and become a threat again. As an individual with confidence in my alliance's and allies ability I do not fear FAN or others who wish us harm. I welcome the opprotunity to prove our skills time and time again and if we fall I'd expect to be given the same chance to rebuild and fight again.

That is my idea world.

Someone get this man a promotion.

This is the best description of how things are and will be going in this thread.

Now the question is, for most of you people reading this - do you want to live in Vladimir's world and help them enforce things by consolidating their political position (see: permanent-ZI for an alliance, permanent-viceroyship for another, threatening people with p-ZI unless they get out of peace mode, keeping alliances in a diplomatical lock for baseless grudges, etc etc.) or do you want to live in a world you're fighting to create for your own values and ideas whatever they are.

I guess most people find it easier to feed themselves on the crumbs off the political table called "safety" (or at least an illusion of it) then fight towards making something of their own. Meh.

Quality post.

[Sephiroth]

FAN tried to destroy us. FAN presently tries to destroy us.

FAN is only trying to destroy you guys since you are trying to destroy them, and seem unwilling to give them peace for as long as you exist. However if you guys gave them a white peace, I think they would be able to recognize that as an honorable move and leave you guys alone if you guys do the same for them. Sometimes its best to move on and let old grudges stay in the past, by continuously trying to drive FAN out of the games you put them in a position where they have limited ways of fighting back and will use what is available to them, but if you gave them peace they would no longer need to treat you like an enemy.

You could either continue fighting them forever while dealing with their counter attacks, or you could give them a white peace and possibly develop some mutual respect for each other as attacks on both sides end. I was very impressed with you guys when you initially gave FAN peace, but then very disappointed when you declared on them a few days before their terms ran out. Giving FAN white peace I think is the best PR move you guys could make and change a lot of minds to being more positive towards you guys, while the risks of them targeting you guys after giving them white peace I think are minimal.

At the same note, you are in all right to make any plea you want it is also our right to totally ignore it.

I agree with you there, but it wouldn't hurt to consider outside opinions at times. If NPO ever ended up in FAN's position, would you expect NPO to be treated the same, or maybe be given an honorable white peace if you guys managed to stick together for as long as they have? By giving FAN white peace you would give a good argument for those who would want to see you given peace eventually, by keeping them in war endlessly your giving a good argument to those who would say that you guys shouldn't ever get peace in such a situation. I know you guys never plan to lose, but it wouldn't hurt to show some mercy at times, so if you guys did somehow end up in the losing side of a war you might be shown similiar mercy as well.

I became a nation ruler just before the Unjust War kicked off, so I don't know the FAN very well from before they were at war with you guys beyond looking at old posts and hearing about it from others, but I don't think its true that if you guys gave them a white peace they would still consider you an enemy. Back when you guys gave them a short time of peace under terms those I spoke to regarding their situation seemed like they just wanted to move on and had no intention of opposing you guys once they were released, and while some were skeptical if you would really let them off peace terms, they tried hard to keep within the peace terms.

Ignore my opinion on this if you want, as I am an uninvolved neutral in your war with FAN, but I would gain a lot of respect for you guys if you did give them white peace.

[Starcraftmazter]

I'm in your thread, supporting your peace plea for FAN.

[Fokker Aeroplanbau]

April Fools!

[Bob Janova]

Unless I am mistaken the war started when NPO said NoV was a protectorate then attacked FAN

The protectorate was public knowledge so no, the first war started when FAN attacked an NPO protectorate. I don't think even FANnies claim the first war was not fully justified.

[Branimir]

-snip-

No.

Gee, that's funny, I seem to remember Pacifica launching various campaigns on the basis of enforcing their own moral code on others.

Actually whats funny is your reply which is factually wrong and has nothing to do with my statement towards which it was hurled.

We have our own moral code which we fallow and defend. So do others. But we never claimed that others do not have their own code, or do not believe in ethics of their own design. My reply went to a comment made that Vlad does not believe in ethics. Your comment has nothing to do with mine except being a childish knee jerk anti NPO reaction.

Ignore my opinion on this if you want, as I am an uninvolved neutral in your war with FAN, but I would gain a lot of respect for you guys if you did give them white peace.

At current, this does not outweigh our reasons for continuation of this conflict highlighted in the posts of Vlad and Triyun.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Branimir

[gantanX]

in few days this topic will be a 40++ pages of Endless debate/arguing from each sides and in the end, still there will be No Action from each side..

Also, Stumpy will win this Thread by Summarizing the Topic

[Dontasemebro]

IM just curious guys.

FAN has admitted to doing basically all of the atrocities most of you would go to war about.

Like meta-game spying, using senators as a weapon, using peace mode(That became naughty during the GATO war when NPO decreed that any peace-moders get perma-ZI), and general disrespect for their enemies.

Regardless of the arguments on whether they are justified in using this tools, I think if they were to be released, they'd be back in the same situation soon when they are found "plotting against the NPO."