Bring the Boys Back Home

[GTTofAK]

You act as if you've made a real counter to the arguments posted. What is Pacifica's definition of an honest fight? You admit that you don't believe that they have any spies, or the capability to use them. What are they supposed to do, "fight like men" against an alliance thirty times their size? You've destroyed them enough. They are no longer a meaningful opposition, which you admit occasionally, before taking up the party line again. Your only argument for continuing this ridiculous spectacle is that "they'll come back and oppose us." One day, maybe. But they're nowhere close, and they shouldn't have to ask you for permission to play the game.

And stop with the patronizing tone.

IC: There is no game.

OOC: This is a political simulator. You should know what game you are playing and play it IC. Calling for a white peace is absolutely ridiculous given the circumstances. FAN knows what they have to do to get peace they are not willing to do it and will take nothing short of a white peace. The NPO is not going to offer a white peace. Thus we are at an impasse and have war. That is real politic. If you don’t like it go play hello kitty island adventure.

[Redoran]

OOC: I guess he could have been referring to the 'game' of politics. They've been basically stopped from participating in CN.

[Vilien]

OOC: This is a political simulator. You should know what game you are playing and play it IC. Calling for a white peace is absolutely ridiculous given the circumstances. FAN knows what they have to do to get peace they are not willing to do it and will take nothing short of a white peace. The NPO is not going to offer a white peace. Thus we are at an impasse and have war. That is real politic. If you don’t like it go play hello kitty island adventure.

I see arguing for honorable conduct makes you a coward, and a child. Realpolitik is !@#$%^&*. You're using this mask as an excuse to treat people terribly, and are persecuting them for far longer than need be. The circumstances? FAN has been ravaged by war, what more can you do to them? An eternal vice royalty like GATO? Way to show us all how big and strong you are, really, you've made a great impression here.

The choice to destroy alliances and nations simply because you can is cowardly. You're showing your cowardice through and through.

[Asriel Belacqua]

Some of FAN likes it better this way, to tell you the truth I don't blame them, being able to say and do anything you like without being under the threat of EZI is great.

I must say, I wish that this were not so true. The fact that people are finally able to speak freely is grand, and as it should be, but the fact that it comes only under conditions of being continuously kicked while down (Beat dead horse anyone?) is a sad thing indeed.

NPO, I used to have no problem with you, your alliance, how you ran things, or much at all with your alliance and membership in general. Until this issue came up. You say you are protecting your alliance. Protecting them from what? A beetle that you have supposedly had "Victory" over? If the beetle is dead, why do you keep nuking it? If it's not dead, what threat does it pose? It only enters your house, and eats your food, because you have given it no other choice. You have destroyed all other ways in which this bug can live other than to steal from you.

Until you let it free, they will continue to do what they are doing. As is what would be expected of anyone who is in such a condition. Extend your open hand, and see if they unclench their fist. Have you even tried it? If not, why have you not tried it? There is no reason. Those who never try, have a 100% of failure. Those who try, even a little, may fail, but not as often as those who don't ever try (Sorry for the major analogy there guys, I just found it the easiest way to accurately state what I was saying).

OOC: I find GTTofAK's OOC post most distasteful. Real life politics, especially now, are based on trying to find peace most of the time. People do not keep eachother in eternal war, and when they do, look at what happens, their position on the world stage becomes a joke. Given the circumstances, and how long you guys have been fighting, you should be the bigger man, and TRY TO MOVE ON. Ever tried being the bigger man? I am asking an honest question. Have you TRIED to move on? As for the Hello Kitty Isle Adventure, I'm not even going to go there. Most distasteful. Yes, I realize, my OOC segment on this post isn't very tasteful itself, but that I know, and I for those who are going to critique my post, go right ahead, and thank you for doing so. Also, I will no longer be participating in this thread in an OOC manner.

EDIT: Apparently the bug called cocroach (with correct spelling) is banned. My bad.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Asriel Belacqua

[BamaBuc]

While I do agree that FAN has done their time and then some, I also see why NPO and everyone else at war with FAN is reluctant to give peace to someone who's continuing to spy on them.

-Bama

[GTTofAK]

I see arguing for honorable conduct makes you a coward, and a child. Realpolitik is !@#$%^&*. You're using this mask as an excuse to treat people terribly, and are persecuting them for far longer than need be. The circumstances? FAN has been ravaged by war, what more can you do to them? An eternal vice royalty like GATO? Way to show us all how big and strong you are, really, you've made a great impression here.

The choice to destroy alliances and nations simply because you can is cowardly. You're showing your cowardice through and through.

Honor? What honor is there in giving a white peace to someone who doesn’t deserve it. And cowardice would be giving into their spies, theft and your whining and letting them off with a white peace when they clearly deserve terms.

[Mussolandia]

Vilien, if you are thinking of this “larger trend”, then your focus is misplaced. FAN is a walking corpse. Its leaders are gone. It no longer has a network of friends in high places that would assist the alliance in its recovery. At best, the alliance could hope to become a functioning “micro-cap” alliance with 2 or 3 recognizable talking heads in the forum, which is basically what they have now. The NPO continues to fight FAN because they occasionally provide an opportunity for recruits to get a first taste of what war is like.

What will you and those who think like you gain from FAN’s release? If anything, it would represent a minor PR victory for the NPO. The world does not care about FAN. I have only seen two members of established alliances support the cause of FAN’s freedom and they have always been philosophically opposed to the NPO. It is a matter that belongs to the past and it will not dictate the outcome of future events.

What I meant by stating that your focus is misplaced is that saving alliances like FAN and GATO is simply a waste of time. You should be looking to weaken the NPO fundamentally and not to improve it incrementally,

If anybody has a right to nostalgia, I'm damn sure it's Mussolandia.

Heh, too true.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Mussolandia

[Vilien]

Villen, if you are thinking of this “larger trend”, then your focus is misplaced. FAN is a walking corpse. Its leaders are gone. It no longer has a network of friends in high places that would assist the alliance in its recovery. At best, the alliance could hope to become a functioning “micro-cap” alliance with 2 or 3 recognizable talking heads in the forum, which is basically what they have now. The NPO continues to fight FAN because they occasionally provide an opportunity for recruits to get a first taste of what war is like.

What will you and those who think like you gain from FAN’s release? If anything, it would represent a minor PR victory for the NPO. The world does not care about FAN. I have only seen two members of established alliances support the cause of FAN’s freedom and they have always been philosophically opposed to the NPO. It is a matter that belongs to the past and it will not dictate the outcome of future events.

What I meant by stating that your focus is misplaced is that saving alliances like FAN and GATO is simply a waste of time. You should be looking to weaken the NPO fundamentally and not to improve it incrementally,

Heh, too true.

I'm sorry if I was a little bit unclear, I meant "larger trend" as in FAN is an example of continued disrespect in the inter-alliance affairs on the part of Pacifica. I don't expect FAN to be released unless something extremely violent occurs, and even then I wouldn't expect them to become a major player in world affairs. I'm not looking at this through a tactical viewpoint, I'm looking at it through an ideological prism.

[Cortath]

I find so many parts of this discussion ludicrous.

I will state things plainly.

FAN tried to destroy us. FAN presently tries to destroy us.

Now let's parse some words one by one. We'll start with the first sentence. We will continue fighting them until they cease to do so.

"FAN." That refers to the Federated Armed Nations. "Tried." That refers to their alliance, as a whole, knowingly having done something. "To destroy us" is that something, "us" being the New Pacific Order.

Now the next sentence. "FAN" still the same as before. "Presently" means now, as in the present. Not the past, not the future, but the now. "Tries" refers to their alliance, as a whole, knowingly doing something. Now, remember, there was an adverb before "tries" and that was "presently," so keep in mind what "presently" means when considering "tries." "Destroy us" is that something again, us being the New Pacific Order.

I like to think I'm a decently intelligence guy. I can recognize patterns. It's a hallmark of making us the most intelligence animal in the Kingdom. The pattern I see is that FAN sincerely wants and tries to destroy us. Them no longer wanting and trying to sincerely destroy us is a pre-condition for me to even begin not viewing them as my enemy. No talk of terms, no talk of peace, no talk of anything before that pre-condition is met, with them or any other enemy.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Cortath

[Vilien]

I find so many parts of this discussion ludicrous.

I will state things plainly.

FAN tried to destroy us. FAN presently tries to destroy us. We will continue fighting them until they cease to do so.

Now let's parse some words one by one. We'll start with the first sentence.

"FAN." That refers to the Federated Armed Nations. "Tried." That refers to their alliance, as a whole, knowingly having done something. "To destroy us" is that something, "us" being the New Pacific Order.

Now the next sentence. "FAN" still the same as before. "Presently" means now, as in the present. Not the past, not the future, but the now. "Tries" refers to their alliance, as a whole, knowingly doing something. Now, remember, there was an adverb before "tries" and that was "presently," so keep in mind what "presently" means when considering "tries." "Destroy us" is that something again, us being the New Pacific Order.

I like to think I'm a decently intelligence guy. I can recognize patterns. It's a hallmark of making us the most intelligence animal in the Kingdom. The pattern I see is that FAN sincerely wants and tries to destroy us. Them no longer wanting and trying to sincerely destroy us is a pre-condition for me to even begin not viewing them as my enemy. No talk of terms, no talk of peace, no talk of anything before that pre-condition is met, with them or any other enemy.

There's that patronizing tone again!

Now, let me get this straight, you won't give FAN peace because they seek to harm you. So you keep fighting them until they no longer want to do you harm. You are, I assume, at war with FAN. Do warring alliances not wish to do each other harm? Do you see how incredibly circular your logic is?

[GTTofAK]

I'm sorry if I was a little bit unclear, I meant "larger trend" as in FAN is an example of continued disrespect in the inter-alliance affairs on the part of Pacifica. I don't expect FAN to be released unless something extremely violent occurs, and even then I wouldn't expect them to become a major player in world affairs. I'm not looking at this through a tactical viewpoint, I'm looking at it through an ideological prism.

Disrespect of Inter-Alliance affairs? What you are advocating is the complete disregard for inter-alliance affairs. White Peace is to be given to those adversaries that you have the upmost respect for. Those who have fought with honor and earned your respect. FAN has spied, stole, ghosted, and here you sit demanding that they get a white peace that they don’t deserve. Who is the one disrespecting inter-alliance affairs here.

Edited March 31, 2009 by GTTofAK

[WalkerNinja]

Frankly, the fault here is FAN's. I know, I know. I want them to have peace just as much as anyone else, but here's why:

FAN has given the NPO *every* IC reason to continue a war. OOC, I'm sure that NPO would be fine with giving them peace if only to stop annoying threads like this one, but they don't have a single IC reason yet. FAN won't even commit to a *temporary* ceasefire much less a substantive move towards peace. FAN knows this. All they have to do to get peace is stop. They won't, and that's why this theater of "Pacifican Oppression" will never end.

Honestly, this is ODN/Rebbilon only not nearly as funny because FAN actually has enough neurons to form a synapse among them, but simply refuses to do so.

[Cortath]

There's that patronizing tone again!

Now, let me get this straight, you won't give FAN peace because they seek to harm you. So you keep fighting them until they no longer want to do you harm. You are, I assume, at war with FAN. Do warring alliances not wish to do each other harm? Do you see how incredibly circular your logic is?

My apologies for being patronizing. I've been in these FAN arguments a long time ago, and the nostalgia kicked in.

You do get it right. I will not stop fighting people who are fighting me. FAN is weak. I am strong. If I stop, FAN will grow. There is a chance, a good one, if you read above my animal intelligence recognizing patterns, they will fight me again, and there I am, fighting someone stronger than they were before. Why would I do that? FAN is weak. I am strong.

[Triyun]

FAN can start their time when they come out of peace mode thank you very much.

As for you complaints about real politik, honor is dependent on the person. I personally have found honor in this game to be much more based around being honest with people, honoring treaties/allies, and treating other players with respect. I do not see this as a matter of honor. I do not think FAN is dishonorable for not coming out of peace mode either. These are merely tactical decisions by leaders who want to prosecute a war to the best of there abilities. Fair fighting has nothing to do with tactics, war is by definition unfair. If there is parity of capabilities, your unlikely to have wars, you have detterrence. Wars are caused by a disparity of capability.

OOC: You don't have peace mode IRL. The basic principle applies in both this game and IRL conflicts though, war is a calculation of expectations of continued conflict versus peace. What do the sides think they can get by ending the fight peacefully through a mutual peace, or by one side scoring a decisive completely one sided victory. FAN has failed to come out of peace mode, probably at this point partially out of apathy, but also under the assumption that if they engage in a conflict of punishment they will eventually either get a third party to intervene either directly or against the NPO for another reason that will leave NPO in a position where it can't continue its fight with FAN. The NPO calculates, that it is highly unlikely that FAN has changed in terms of its long term goals, and that it is likely in another war that FAN would play a role in the opposition but from at least a partially rebuilt position. Thus keeping them in peace mode at minimum or scoring a decisive military victory against them would be more to their advantage. Until there is a lowering of expectations by FAN, and have them calculate it makes the most sense for them to engage the NPO take the punishment and move on, they are unlikely to come out of peace mode. Likewise, unless there emerges a significant third party force that threatens the NPO a whole lot more that makes the prosecution of this war too costly, it is unlikely that the NPO will cease this fight. ATM, there is not a whole lot either can do to one another, and the cost to prosecute the war is not that high in maintaining at minimum a current position. Thus the war is unlikely to end due to the structures of the game itself reinforcing a static set of expectations.

[Vilien]

Disrespect of inter-alliance affairs? What you are advocating is the complete disregard for inter-alliance affairs. White peace is to be given to those adversaries that you have the utmost respect for. Those who have fought with honor and earned your respect. FAN has spied, stolen, ghosted, and here you sit, demanding that they get a white peace that they don’t deserve. Who is the one disrespecting inter-alliance affairs here?

What is one supposed to do in a war against a larger power? If they were "fighting honorably", they'd be in GATO's position, with your government stating that they'll go free whenever the NPO feels like it. Besides, what could you even take from them? There's nothing left for FAN to give.

My apologies for being patronizing. I've been in these FAN arguments a long time ago, and the nostalgia kicked in.

You do get it right. I will not stop fighting people who are fighting me. FAN is weak. I am strong. If I stop, FAN will grow. There is a chance, a good one, if you read above my animal intelligence recognizing patterns, they will fight me again, and there I am, fighting someone stronger than they were before. Why would I do that? FAN is weak. I am strong.

You've admitted our ideological difference. I believe in a moral standard, and Pacifica does not. At this point, FAN could be granted peace and we'd still be fighting. But it would be a different time, and over a different issue. Our points of view are fundamentally different. Hopefully we will find common ground some day.

[Triyun]

You claim you are the only one who has your own moral standard? That seems a bit presumptuous, don't you think. There are moral standards that the NPO has, that plenty of others lack. We advocate against a nuclear first strike policy for example, however, I know of plenty of alliances which we respect who have such a policy. You can't claim a monopoly on a subjective thing.

[Vilien]

You claim you are the only one who has your own moral standard. That seems a bit presumptuous, don't you think? There are moral standards that the NPO has, ones that plenty of others lack. For example, we advocate against a nuclear first strike policy, however, I know of plenty of alliances which we respect who have such a policy. You can't claim a monopoly on a subjective thing.

There are some issues where the moral standard is not subjective. Self-determination is one of them.

[Cortath]

You've admitted our ideological difference. I believe in a moral standard, and Pacifica does not. At this point, FAN could be granted peace and we'd still be fighting. But it would be a different time, and over a different issue. Our points of view are fundamentally different. Hopefully we will find common ground some day.

Our differences are not ideological.

All alliances strive for survival. That is the ultimate ideology, and all rational beings share it.

Some alliances embrace certain so-called universal moralities that they think will help them survive. I do not begrudge them this. The New Pacific Order simply chooses not to hide behind the facade of such morality. We are here to survive, and beyond that, to thrive. Anything we do is calculated towards that. There is no universal morality, only the universal ideology of survival.

As Triyun has said, at the end of the day, FAN, in its wisdom, has decided that its present course of action best ensures its survival. We, in our wisdom, have decided that our present course of action best ensures our survival. If the material reality of the world we both analyze changes, perhaps FAN or the NPO might change their decision.

As Triyun said, and share I his opinion, it seems unlikely that the conditions of our material world will change, and thus our analysis will not change.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Cortath

[Vilien]

Our differences are not ideological.

All alliances strive for survival. That is the ultimate ideology, and all rational beings share it.

Some alliances embrace certain moralities that they think will help them survive. I do not begrudge them this. The New Pacific Order simply does not hide behind the facade of morality. We are here to survive, and beyond that, to thrive. Anything we do is calculated towards that. There is no universal morality, only the universal ideology of survival.

As Triyun has said, at the end of the day, FAN, in its wisdom, has decided that its present course of action best ensures its survival. We, in our wisdom, have decided that our present course of action best ensures our survival. If the material reality of the world we both analyze changes, perhaps FAN or the NPO might change their decision.

As Triyun said, and share I his opinion, it seems unlikely that the conditions of our material world will change, and thus our analysis will not change.

The ultimate ideology is not survival. There is no reason for survival without honor, or existence without a moral code. The few alliances you refer to do not embrace honorable and moral conduct because it will allow them to survive. They do so because they believe in common decency. There are issues, though few and far between, where we can all recognize the right thing to do.

The material world, ultimately, means nothing. At the end of the day, all of these things that you hold so dear will be gone. It will only live in memory; how you acted toward others, how many people you can hold a common sense of respect with. I will never let concern for my survival trump my duty to act decently toward other human beings. You have my word.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Vilien

[Cortath]

The ultimate ideology is not survival. There is no reason for survival without honor, or existence without a moral code. The few alliances you refer to do not embrace honorable and moral conduct because it will allow them to survive. They do so because they believe in common decency. There are issues, though few and far between, where we can all recognize the right thing to do.

The material world, ultimately, means nothing. At the end of the day, all of these things that you hold so dear will be gone. It will only live in memory; how you acted toward others, how many people you can hold a common sense of respect with. I will never let concern for my survival trump my duty to act decently toward other human beings. You have my word.

I am puzzled by your statements.

"Memory" is material. You will die. I will die. The memories held in our heads will die. Some day too, all memories of all events will die. That is the material world. You are material. There is no God. There is no soul. There is no Platonic "idea" in some heaven somewhere. The material world is all there is.

[Triyun]

There are some issues where the moral standard is not subjective. Self-determination is one of them.

Yes it absolutely is. If self-determination was supreme over all other values, incarceration for any reason would be immoral. Self-determination has always had to be balanced with security.

[Blacky]

While I do agree that FAN has done their time and then some, I also see why NPO and everyone else at war with FAN is reluctant to give peace to someone who's continuing to spy on them.

-Bama

I think it comes down to what Bob Janova said earlier in this thread morality.

They've done their time and then some. However due to their treatment, completely NPO's fault, recidivism becomes much more likely and so a threat does exist. However like I said earlier in this thread:

I would rather not see them freed of NPO's will but rather against NPO's will. It would make it that much more delicious.

[atrophis]

I never said white peace, my point is that in order for us to agree to enter into peace negotiations, they first actually have to fight the war.

FAN can start their time when they come out of peace mode thank you very much.

Sorry if we don't trust you. Especially seeing as how many of your IO buddies and Moo himself has said many times that the only way we will ever exist is not at all.

You people managed to back stab us once for what amounts to nothing, we don't plan to let it happen again.

[Vilien]

I am puzzled by your statements.

"Memory" is material. You will die. I will die. The memories held in our heads will die. Some day too, all memories of all events will die. That is the material world. You are material. There is no God. There is no soul. There is no Platonic "idea" in some heaven somewhere. The material world is all there is.

There doesn't have to be a god for one to recognize his duty to fellow human beings. This isn't a debate about the existence of god. It's a debate between you, who does whatever he wishes because he can, and me. I, for one, do things because they are the right thing to do. That's the difference.

Yes it absolutely is. If self-determination was supreme over all other values, incarceration for any reason would be immoral. Self-determination has always had to be balanced with security.

You've just repeated one of the biggest lies in history. Congratulations!

No one said self-determination meant allowing people to enforce their will on others through violence. That directly contradicts the entire principle. Self-determination is the right of people to govern themselves without being told what to do by, let's say for argument's sake, someone who is stronger than them. Might does not make right.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Vilien

[Cortath]

There doesn't have to be a god for one to recognize his duty to fellow human beings. This isn't a debate about the existence of god. It's a debate between you, who does whatever he wishes because he can, and me. I, for one, do things because they are the right thing to do. That's the difference.

You've just repeated one of the biggest lies in history. Congratulations!

No one said self-determination meant allowing people to enforce their will on others through violence. That directly contradicts the entire principle. Self-determination is the right of people to govern themselves without being told what to do by, let's say for argument's sake, someone who is stronger than them. Might does not make right.

You misunderstand what I do. I do not do things because I can. I can do many things, but choose not to. I do because a rational analysis of the material world indicates to me that survival demands it.

To say we do because we can makes us seem very terribly whimsical. We do not decide matters of war and peace on the basis of whimsy. Perhaps the greatest mistake is to assume one's opponent are stupid or foolish. Do you think whimsy is the basis of our decisions? That we do things because we simply can?

The beginning of defeating an opponent's argument is assuming that they are as wise and rational as you.