Crimes of Persuasion

[Yenisey]

Well, for the official response from the Order of the Black Rose, there isn't really much response to make.

Sir Experimentum's telling of events is accurate, as it should be given that he was largely responsible for the way in which things unfolded.

I'm not going to make a 10,000 word statement attempting to spin events to show the Order in a favourable light, nor am I going to attempt to assassinate the character of Sir Experimentum further. Read the screenshots and logs yourselves and make up your own minds.

If anyone who was involved has any questions, please contact me privately and I will do my best to answer.

OOC:

Miko, I don't know exactly what's going on or why you're doing this, but I still consider you a friend. If you'd like a chat, you know how you can contact me.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Yenisey

[RandomInterrupt]

So basically what we have here is more dirty laundry from an alliance that has been around quite a while. Once again I just can't see this as really changing anything or doing any damage. What this proves is the OBR has had to make tough decisions in the past, and may have made a great mistake. That is only earth shattering if you want to pretend that such decisions do not eventually come to every alliance.

The OBR had to make a call of their word vs their infra. They chose infra. This is what 99% of alliances that have ever existed have and will do. So perhaps this damages the mystique of the OBR for some, but I personally don't think so. If anything it humanizes an alliance known for being distant. They made a call, it wasn't the one that lets you sleep well at night, some at least regret it, life goes on and lessons are learned. Nothing to stop pulses.

Edited March 1, 2009 by RandomInterrupt

[Lord Boris]

Considering the entirety of the LoFN War was a series of complete cluster****s and bad decisions on all sides (I would know), I daresay I can't really fault OBR here.

[Freelancer]

Calling anyone who resides in the Rosular Kingdom, and serves her highness a coward is defamatory libel.

You may want to take a peak at Sir Yenisey's post, I'm with him The screen shots speak for themselves

You, sir, know nothing of nobility. Nothing of honor. I do think that you understand pride, though. Pride can be a dangerous thing. My fair queen and her knights know when to set pride aside, and do what is right, and noble.

Should I use the " defamatory libel " card? Addressing the second part of the bolded, it would appear in this case NO, the right thing to do would have drilled Andromeda and Argo into the ground, starting with that lying no good snake in the grass Empriam Grey, it took VE to right that wrong, where the Nobel thing to do would have been prun that thorn back in May when it should have been done.

And tell me, Mr. Freelancer; why is it that you build up a nation, here in Digiterra? You seem to 'retire' all too often. I think the pride you feel after building up a nation counts as 'bean counting'.

I have to admit your right here, I do try, however the pheasants I hang with just wont let me, every-time I go inactive, my email box fills, I could post most of them however that would require its own topic, as for the bean counting and me, have a dog piss on my lawn and see what happens, I shoot the owner and give the dog proper training, which I'm sure your superiors will be doing shortly with you.

Pro-Tip, never give anyone a reason to remind the public of a less than Nobel act,

Well, for the official response from the Order of the Black Rose, there isn't really much response to make.

Sir Experimentum's telling of events is accurate, as it should be given that he was largely responsible for the way in which things unfolded.

Thank you for reaffirming your obvious dereliction of duty, what happened to "But we are not, and never shall be, the object of anyone's pity; and we do not, and never shall, seek mercy rather than justice"

I'm not going to make a 10,000 word statement attempting to spin events to show the Order in a favourable light, nor am I going to attempt to assassinate the character of Sir Experimentum further. Read the screenshots and logs yourselves and make up your own minds.

Good, I didn't feel like looking for my Websters dictionary.

So basically what we have here is more dirty laundry from an alliance that has been around quite a while. Once again I just can't see this as really changing anything or doing any damage. What this proves is the OBR has had to make tough decisions in the past, and may have made a great mistake. That is only earth shattering if you want to pretend that such decisions do not eventually come to every alliance.

The OBR had to make a call of their word vs their infra. They chose infra. This is what 99% of alliances that have ever existed have and will do. So perhaps this damages the mystique of the OBR for some, but I personally don't think so. If anything it humanizes an alliance known for being distant. They made a call, it wasn't the one that lets you sleep well at night, some at least regret it, life goes on and lessons are learned. Nothing to stop pulses.

I agree, however the mystique and nobility of The OBR has been tainted with Experimentum's closet cleaning, some of us who have been here for sometime, like yourself Random would expect better from The OBR, that all disappeared as of Friday night.

Edited for left out word, my mind works faster than my fingers

Edited March 1, 2009 by Freelancer

[Juan Valdez]

Next, Experimentum will "shock" us with the dramatic revelation that one of the purposes of Blackwater is to gather intel about Black Team alliances on OBR's behalf.

[Freelancer]

Next, Experimentum will "shock" us with the dramatic revelation that one of the purposes of Blackwater is to gather intel about Black Team alliances on OBR's behalf.

No, thats Sir Yenisey's job and there quite transparent about that.

[Juan Valdez]

No, thats Sir Yenisey's job and there quite transparent about that.

I think you may have missed my point.

[General Ulji]

I just don't know what to say here, but I'll try. (By the way, I'm just going to write as it comes to me, probably regretting this post later.)

To be honest, I've trolled every post that had any relation to those events hoping to start a fight (admin, I can't get retro warns can I ), I just thought it would have been horrible to call you guys out on the boards, but tbh I was really hoping I could goad you guys into a open confrontation, where my frustration could be aired.

I just can't describe the anger and hurt I felt when the whole thing went down. No hate (any more) for the d-bags attacking us (I'll write that off to "just a game" and of course, if they were ever on the receiving end, see Ephraim ZI post, I'd gloat like crazy ), but I really felt as though I was just kicked in the nuts when our shining knight failed to show up. I didn't care too much about the infra loss, but the net outcome from that whole event is that I've lost touch few cool people I made friends with on this planet; they've disappeared to that strange afterlife called RL. Burn1Love has almost totally disappeared, although Seixas is able to pass notes to him from time to time through some mysterious portal.

But hey, life goes on and you guys did help us rebuild through Blackwater and I now, (both the lesson from GOD and the continual pushups metal made me do) really understand the value of a warchest!!!

I still have much love for W_A_R and Blackwater, but here is the real twist (hitch-hikers, don't take this the wrong way, I love you guys), but a few of us have been recently talking about getting NEAT back together for a reunion tour (I know direct democracy and voting for everything is pure fail, but hell it was fun to do!).

Now first person to post something idiotic, like "Private channels for the win" can just suck it, but wouldn't it be great to have the Rose be our protector again? I still vote for SocCarolina, you know ....

[General Specific]

You are a traitor Experimentum and no amount of internal information posted in public will change that. I dont care if you had plans to roll us or spy on us, what you are doing is a total disgrace. I hate traitors like you btw.

I think whistle-blower might be a more appropriate term in this case.

Also, Angry Alliance might consider anger management

[Freelancer]

I just don't know what to say here, but I'll try. (By the way, I'm just going to write as it comes to me, probably regretting this post later.)

To be honest, I've trolled every post that had any relation to those events hoping to start a fight (admin, I can't get retro warns can I ), I just thought it would have been horrible to call you guys out on the boards, but tbh I was really hoping I could goad you guys into a open confrontation, where my frustration could be aired.

I just can't describe the anger and hurt I felt when the whole thing went down. No hate (any more) for the d-bags attacking us (I'll write that off to "just a game" and of course, if they were ever on the receiving end, see Ephraim ZI post, I'd gloat like crazy ), but I really felt as though I was just kicked in the nuts when our shining knight failed to show up. I didn't care too much about the infra loss, but the net outcome from that whole event is that I've lost touch few cool people I made friends with on this planet; they've disappeared to that strange afterlife called RL. Burn1Love has almost totally disappeared, although Seixas is able to pass notes to him from time to time through some mysterious portal.

But hey, life goes on and you guys did help us rebuild through Blackwater and I now, (both the lesson from GOD and the continual pushups metal made me do) really understand the value of a warchest!!!

I still have much love for W_A_R and Blackwater, but here is the real twist (hitch-hikers, don't take this the wrong way, I love you guys), but a few of us have been recently talking about getting NEAT back together for a reunion tour (I know direct democracy and voting for everything is pure fail, but hell it was fun to do!).

Now first person to post something idiotic, like "Private channels for the win" can just suck it, but wouldn't it be great to have the Rose be our protector again? I still vote for SocCarolina, you know ....

Could I have so much fun with all this, however I will refrain as my post ^^ up there ^^ sums up my feeling, 'General Ulji, I hear ya, I lost many of friends due to this game and as always the hardest part is looking back and laughing at the good times we did share together, If you feel the need to give Neat another try, I say go for it as for the Rose and The Protectorate, Obviously I can't answer that for ya.

[The Big Bad]

As far as I know OBR is isolated and plays no role in anyting that goes on in Planet Bob. And while all this makes them look bad, so what. They will remain as they are. Would anyone want to sign a treaty with them after all this, I would think not. But its not like anyone was planning on it anyway. I don't get what the point is of exposing to everyone that OBR is not some little honorable alliance as its not like it will effect its foriegn affairs because they have none. Would this not have been better servered by revealing it to the general membership so they could see what dirt ball leaders they have and get rid of them?

This way you are painting the entire membership, many of whom may have no knowledge of any of this and think OBR has been a stand up honorable group all along, in the same light as their failed leadership.

[Quercus]

@General Ulji- I am glad this is finally out there. Every time you tangentially addressed this topic, I felt a twinge of guilt for being a party to defending a treaty partner with a pocket book instead of with our nations. In my year and a half with the Order, this was one of two things that I felt ashamed of. The other was the cancellation of the Concordium Sed Noblis with the Greenland Republic. We shut that treaty down because we saw which way the wind was blowing and wanted to avoid future trouble.

As I spend more time watching the rat race that is planet Bob or Digiterra, I realize that anybody who loves their nation infrastructure is unsuitable as a treaty partner. This is a contest where self interest causes people to forget that all things are inconsequential when placed next to real friendships. I'll say this in print here and now so anybody can hold me to this promise in the years ahead- oaths of fealty be damned, I will never again allow my nation to be sidelined when my conscience tells me that my place is in the fight.

[OOC]@Miko- Regarding real friendship, I am sending you a PM, let's talk on the phone; a little bit about this and a whole lot about a hundred other topics that have nothing to cybernations.[/OOC]

[The AUT]

I've never quite understood the aura of The Order of the Black Rose and why they are so "honorable" myself. I find them very unloyal and although they may be rather intelligent, they don't appear to be able to do what's right so to speak.

Why are they characterized as so honorable? Whenever it comes time to war they hide behind their plethora of treaties unwilling to enter on either side of the conflict and therefore many consider them wise and loyal. That's just not true. It appears they do this on purpose so that they're never forced into a conflict while many see why this is so and call it the "right move."

If I were to sign a treaty with OBR, if ever I do, I have to make sure they take their treaties seriously. As for now I think they're a group of rather intelligent and shrewd people who are willing to stand on the sidelines to ensure their prosperity in a rather disturbing fashion.

[Tritonia]

I find it fairly amusing OBR came to the same conclusion we did, independently, with the same evidence, long before we ever attacked.

LoFN's heritage has never been in question. It is its nature and purpose which has always been our point of contention, Xiphosis.

--

The actions of the OBR were absolutely legal- a term that will always mean something slightly different to me now- and due to that I cannot bring myself to find legitimate fault with them. I still believe the membership of the OBR to be full of courageous people on par with my former comrades.

I too, in some regard, am glad this topic is finally being aired. It certainly changes nothing, excepting my respect for the Queen. The duty of a Sovereign is, first and foremost, to the security of Her vassals and the mark of a good Sovereign is one prepared to take dubious courses of action in order to maintain it. I cannot, however, help but wonder how Her Majesty's influence may have altered the proceedings had a public stance been taken. I like to imagine that the OBR actually has some political sway.

I am grateful that the Order of the Black Rose honored their obligation to some extent in seeking alternative peace terms for Nations Empowered Against Totalitarianism. I can only hope that those from NEAT who did join Blackwater benefited from it. I still maintain that NEATs involvement in the LoFN war was completely unwarranted.

-Eric Bunker

[Heyman]

10 PM deadline? I eagerly await your next thread.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Heyman

[Juan Valdez]

Calling anyone who resides in the Rosular Kingdom, and serves her highness a coward is defamatory libel.

Oh really?

@General Ulji- I am glad this is finally out there. Every time you tangentially addressed this topic, I felt a twinge of guilt for being a party to defending a treaty partner with a pocket book instead of with our nations. In my year and a half with the Order, this was one of two things that I felt ashamed of. The other was the cancellation of the Concordium Sed Noblis with the Greenland Republic. We shut that treaty down because we saw which way the wind was blowing and wanted to avoid future trouble.

[Nintenderek]

Wasent directed at you, more at ninten and his statement about how OBR seems to be less then what they are regarding honor and integrity. However, if he is to make such statements about another alliance and their values based on just one person, I felt it was only fitting to remind him of his place in cybernations and his own alliance he resides in.

In the end however, what really changes? OBR still will watch CN, Baer in FAN will continue poking fun at NPO, I still will crave booze, and tC will still be the strongest bloc.

If you have a problem with Vox, please find us on IRC and tell us there. We will then roast you to pieces like you deserve to be.

I am still quite shocked at this entire situation.

[bigwoody]

If you have a problem with Vox, please find us on IRC and tell us there. We will then roast you to pieces like you deserve to be.

I am still quite shocked at this entire situation.

Yes, many of us know very well how Vox likes to "roast" those they do not like...its quite hypocritical and amusing if I may say so myself.

But this isn't about Vox.

Although I must say, this particular "Revelation" is kind of weak, and is rather indicative of Sir E's motivation of petty revenge.

Edited March 1, 2009 by bigwoody

[cheezy]

Its nice to see the facts said out loud, even if its in this manner. Thanks to the supportive knights during the entire NEAT conflict, not so much thanks to some of the others.

The conflict did destroy NEAT as an allaince and i do blame this partly on OBR. However blackwater was a batery chicken for growth and many of us are probaly near the levels we would have been through natural growth anyway so we have to thank Sir E , W_A_R, Craven and a few others for actualy making this possible for us.

During the conflict we had pleanty of oportunities to post our protectorate but we chose not too, we expected OBR to do what was right, after all, we were dealing massive amounts of tech with them (Thanks to W_A_R) and it would have been beneficial for them to keep us on good terms...They might not have done the right thing...but atleast they kind of meet us half way....eventualy...then again, by the time OBR got involved such allainces as CPCN were also helping us out and we were already deep into negotiations with andromida.

Overall tho, as the general said, we have been discussing the rebirth of NEAT and if such a day would come, i would still be willing to sign treaties with OBR, but i would totaly not trust them as a protectorate again or take their treaties very seriously.

-Cheezy

Edited March 2, 2009 by cheezy

[Haflinger]

Yawn. Secret treaties suck. Anyone that signs one is asking for trouble.

[Poobah]

Yawn. Secret treaties suck. Anyone that signs one is asking for trouble.

Haf, what about the secret Argent-Invicta merger treaty?

[Zinobya]

I asked why you were doing this in the other thread, Ex. Now I believe I know.

Very, very pathetic imo.

[Haflinger]

Haf, what about the secret Argent-Invicta merger treaty?

lol

ssshhhh

[Trinite]

Whatever. I still love OBR. They make intelligent posts, and they do their thing. So they signed a secret protectorate and instead of charging to their deaths as protectors, they got lighter peace terms for them. NEAT was going to get rolled anyway. There wasn't much else OBR could have done besides "honorably" been rolled with them. Secret treaties are always drama, and OBR doesn't seem to want drama, so probably a bad idea, but they're still cool cats.

[Quercus]

There wasn't much else OBR could have done besides "honorably" been rolled with them. Secret treaties are always drama, and OBR doesn't seem to want drama, so probably a bad idea, but they're still cool cats.

I planned our retaliation to the threat against NEAT. I remember it was clear that we couldn't win, but I was certain that we would win locally near the top of the ladder and create a stalemate. With the Unholy Trebuchette, we would have decapitated the top of the alliances involved. The distribution of OBR and Blackwater have changed considerably since then, but we had another half dozen nations with 25 nukes in the top 100 at the time. Add in OBR mandatory warchests and the favorable mechanics for a 1v3's in a nuclear war and it goes from being a curbstomp to a fight that requires alot of treaty partners for NEATs attackers to win.

In the end, NEAT suffers far worse for that war. They get lumped in with an alliance of nuclear aggressors and probably end up with peace terms that would be similar to what MK got for running the same strategy on the NPO. I really don't care about infra other than its use to fund the means to destroy my enemies, but some times discretion is better than valor. The irony in all of this is that the "save our nations" approach saved a half dozen nations in the OBR that have been deleted through retirement anyway. They were top 100 nations, but today they are nothing but memories of good people who moved on.

Anyway, after talking with Experimentum on the phone for nearly two hours last night, I'll encourage his detractors in this thread to go easy. This appears to be a smear campaign, but it is really an insurrection to promote positive change. I don't know how it will all end up, but I do not believe that there is malice at the root of his exposé.

Best wishes, barring some additional drama, I am going to take another few months off from this forum.