Trouble at the MCXA?

[Hasin]

So far I think this thread has brought up every single TOP drama of the past 3 years.

Initiative

GW2

True/False Paradoxians

Isolationist/Political

CEN

UJP

[Hyperion321]

Avernite I have the upmost respect for you, but I want to ask how the FOK MDP fits into this during the UJW? They were attacked by GATO, NTO, and -AiD- correct?

I know we at UNION honored our MDP and were engaged with -AiD-. Between FOK and ourselves we recieved the only surrender from the ~ side in the war. Where was TOP?

According to the wiki, it looks like AiD surrendered and GATO initiated a cease fire after TOP and GRE became involved during talks. That leads me to assume that although they did not offer direct military assistance, their political assistance was able to garner peace for FOK.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Hyperion321

[Frozenrpg]

TOP admitted to breaking treaties in the UJW a long time ago. It doesn't stop them from lambasting others for doing the same, though.

Aye, but GATO entered the conflict declaring it seperate from the UJW. Wouldn't that mean that TOP's declaration of neutrality in the conflict would not apply since the GATO/FOK front was a seperate front all together as declared by GATO?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2004#

[Hyperion321]

Aye, but GATO entered the conflict declaring it seperate from the UJW. Wouldn't that mean that TOP's declaration of neutrality in the conflict would not apply since the GATO/FOK front was a seperate front all together as declared by GATO?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2004#

They also mentioned how UJP brought the war upon themselves, and that they were supporting AiD (who was fighting on the ~ side). Try as they might to isolate themselves from the conflict, they were fighting to defend alliances who were firmly situated with ~. Therefor, GATO was with ~ to start.

Not only that, but after TOP threatened to become involved citing the very reasons you just did, GATO officially changed their stance to their war against FOK as being a front in UJW to avoid getting stomped by TOP.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Hyperion321

[Bob Janova]

Basically TOP pointed out to GATO that they were going to have to activate the MDP (and we told AiD that we would assist TOP) and that got GATO (and AiD) out of the war without actually having to attack.

[avernite]

Aye, but GATO entered the conflict declaring it seperate from the UJW. Wouldn't that mean that TOP's declaration of neutrality in the conflict would not apply since the GATO/FOK front was a seperate front all together as declared by GATO?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2004#

I always feel we did pretty well sticking to our neutrality since ES apparently thought we were nearly directly aiding the UjP while you think we dishonoured our MDP with FOK.

[Electron Sponge]

Basically TOP pointed out to GATO that they were going to have to activate the MDP (and we told AiD that we would assist TOP) and that got GATO (and AiD) out of the war without actually having to attack.

I wish you had.

[Frozenrpg]

According to the wiki, it looks like AiD surrendered and GATO initiated a cease fire after TOP and GRE became involved during talks. That leads me to assume that although they did not offer direct military assistance, their political assistance was able to garner peace for FOK.

Yes that is what the wiki says, however we all know public records are often slightly misleading. The fact of the matter is TOP began putting pressure on GATO. However, NPO told TOP to back down. TOP of course followed orders. FOK and GATO later agreed to a ceasefire once AiD surrendered as GATO's involvement was no longer necessary.

The wiki makes it look like this all happned over a short time period, when in fact it took place over the whole course of the war.

Edited for clarification: However it was only TOP's involvement that was quite temporary.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Frozenrpg

[Frozenrpg]

So far I think this thread has brought up every single TOP drama of the past 3 years.

Initiative

GW2

True/False Paradoxians

Isolationist/Political

CEN

UJP

I can bring up what TOP tried to pull while we were working to form OUT. Now, thats damaging! Or you could always ask Bodvar or Saber. I'll wait to see what the TOP reply is before I bring that one up.

I am sure some of the old guard from IRON and ODN can recall how difficult TOP made it. Posta0 sticks out particularly as he was the individual I worked with on the ODN side.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Frozenrpg

[Dr. Dan]

Unfortunately for you, this post has landed you on my "Watch for this guys' posts" list.

That was one heck of a post and I have no idea how Dr Dan could respond to that.

You're correct, arguing with emotions is impossible. I can appreciate his thoughts on those times. I can empathize with him.

[Frozenrpg]

You're correct, arguing with emotions is impossible. I can appreciate his thoughts on those times. I can empathize with him.

Who are you?

[Dr. Dan]

Who are you?

I joined after you left, right at the end of the CEN situation. Though it's not particularly relevant, I'm an IA bot that has a long history of service to TOP.

If you want to know more of my history, you can take a look at my Biography The Man in the Closet written by Timberland.

[ponken]

You are right, ever since TOP sold out its roots at the Paradox forums where we origionally hailed from in order to further its in game statistics I do not understand the creature that bore me into CN. I am thankful that Ivanelterrible (hurricanehunter on the forums) messaged me that one fateful December day and asked me if I would partake in a new Paradoxian community. Too bad that spirit and sense of unity; of belonging and fraternaty that was associated with a group of uniqueindividuals who share a similar background and interest has long since died out. I do miss that. I do miss many of my brothers from that era. And I am estatic about the relationships that I have developed with many of my fellow Paradoxians past and present. Were you around when myself and some of my fellow copatriots came under fire after the TOP diaspora for claiming we were some of the true Paradoxians? It was the spirit of that age that many of us took with us when we left. This Paradoxian fire that lived inside us all spread to the many alliances we were successful in. All of which were highly successful or still are when under the helm of Paradoxians. Look at Genesis where many of my copatriots once ended up. Or Polaris where Ski and Lynn call home. Zenith his become highly succesful where Suvorov dwells and lastly Universalis, a shining beacon for the days of old. So you are right Dr. Dan, I am unfamiliar with what TOP has become. But I am quite familiar with her roots and the morals she was founded upon.

Signed,

Frozen-rpg

One of the Last of the True Paradoxians

In Memorum

Ivanelterrible

Lemeard

Tachi

WhiteHojo

Felissilvestris

Litigator

Johann

Ugly Guy

Squeak

Chopper

Polar Mongoose

Jonti/Knut (13:16 Knut and where the feck am I? )

And the many others who once were the heart and soul of TOP. Whom I am honored to call my friends. I tilt my glass in honor to you good sirs, and I know you are successful whatever your current endeavors

To start let me just say: Unghhh, not the true paradoxian crap again.

Your post is long so my answer will be so too, though it wont have as nice flow, and be so nicely written, as yours since I am just trying to answer your different points/questions.

As someone who was here back then, and even before, and is in TOP right now I agree with you on the notion that we have changed, an alliance is never static. In fact, right around the time you joined TOP we had changed so much that people have left cause they thought that we had lost our roots.

And yes we are not all members of Paradox Interactive, but the feeling of fraternity and unity is just as strong. I feel like I belong here, just as I felt that I belong in TOP during your golden days, and just as I felt that I belong in TOP back when we still didnt knew how the game worked and if we would dare to announce our existence.

I was also around when you guys started proclaiming yourself as true paradoxians, and I dont buy for a minute that you dont realize why we would take slight of that. But since you are claiming yourself to be a true paradoxian I might as well ask you the question I've had asked some of the other one, only UG responded though (with "not being in TOP" which I personally found lacking), what are the requirements of a true paradoxian?

I see alot of people on that list that I as well miss and am actually happy that some of them have found new homes. But I cant remember anyone of them stating that the fact that we started to accept non-paradox members was the reason for their leaving, those I remember had very different ones, from not allowing tech raiding to RL issues. And the fact that those alliances that were created due to this exodus had no trouble accepting non-paradox members as well strengthen my belief in that. Not sure about Universalis though, did you have a "only paradox-members policy?, but then again that was an exodus from genesis and not us.

And seriously Frozen, naming ski and lynn as "carriers of the paradoxian flame" while raving about people not from Paradox Interactive is just stupid.

edit: seriously frozen, stop that seniority crap, dr dan has actually been longer in TOP than you

Edited February 24, 2009 by Ponken

[AirMe]

... not really. I don't think I have any that have clauses like that, actually.

The most MK has is a non-stacking clause so we don't get dragged into someone elses crap fest. Anything more than that is just......well it just makes me think why you would sign a treaty at all. If you are so worried just sign ODP's because basically with a clause like that, its what all your treaties are.

[Ejayrazz]

Unfortunately for you, this post has landed you on my "Watch for this guys' posts" list.

That was one heck of a post and I have no idea how Dr Dan could respond to that.

Ponken delivered nicely.

[pezstar]

The most MK has is a non-stacking clause so we don't get dragged into someone elses crap fest. Anything more than that is just......well it just makes me think why you would sign a treaty at all. If you are so worried just sign ODP's because basically with a clause like that, its what all your treaties are.

Agreed. And for the record, all of STA's treaties have a non-stacking clause.

[Bodvar Jarl]

Agreed. And for the record, all of STA's treaties have a non-stacking clause.

And TOP's (I think)

[Buller]

Was Chopper ever on the PI forums?

[Saber]

Who are you?

And who are YOU exactly? Are you the one that could never get anywhere within TOP because you were not good enough, and then became President of one of our protectorates through something that can easily be called bribery. Highlight of your whole career in UNION as President is when you decided to cancel protectorate treaty with TOP which had absolutely no obligations on UNION side (quote 1 for reference).

"Europa Universalis"

Friendship Doctrine between TOP and TNEEA.

This pact is a result of good relations between The Order of the Paradox, (TOP) and UnitedNess of Inter-Orange Nations (UNION), and is an effort to strengthen both signatories as well as said relations, it is to remain clear that both signatories are to remain sovereign, and that the conduct between TOP and UNION at all times shall remain and civil and friendly.

Article 1: Non-aggression

I: No recognised member of either signatory may knowingly perform an act of aggression against a member of the other singatory.

II: An act of aggression is defined as attacking or aiding, encouraging or otherwise provoke an attack.

III: Should a member of a signatory breach section I, said member's signatory is responsible to pay full reparations or expulse the member, further diciplinary action is up to the signatory to determine.

IV: A Breach of of Article 1 Section III will render the treaty null and void.

Article 2: War

I: An alliance attack upon UNION will be viewed as a declaration of war against TOP and be met by all available strength.

II: Both signatories has a legal casus belli against any third party that conducts aggression as defined in article 1 section II against the other signatory.

III: Should UNION conduct aggression as defined in article 1 section II, article 2 section I will be suspended for as long as the conflict lasts.

IV: A Breach of Article 2 section I will render the treat null and void.

Article 3: Advice and diplomatic aid

I: UNION can ask TOP for advice and help on organisational, diplomatical and technical issues at any time, and TOP will offer such assistance.

II: TOP reserves the rigth to hold back any documents or technical tools it has access to without any expressed reason or even notification of their existance, but will instead create new ones, or use said items as referance in order to comply with Article 3 Section I.

III: A breach of Article 3 section I will render the treaty null and void

Article 4: Cancellation and expiration

I: Either signatory may at any time cancel the agreement, in such a case the treaty will be in effect for 120 hours during which it can reconsider and the agreement will still be in effect as normal

II: Neither signatory can declare war upon the other before 120 hours has passed should the treaty be declared null and void by either Article 1 Section IV, Article 2 Section IV or Article 3 section III.

Article 5: Ammendments

I: By mutual consent from both signatories, the agreement can be altered as the signatories see fit

Signed for TOP

Litgator02 Grandmaster

Ivanelterrible Grand Hospitaller

Bodvar Jarl Grand Chancellor

Signed for TNEEA

President: The Studdly Jew

Vice President: Kream

International Affairs Representative: Pyronne

Treasurer: Chaz1049

Recruitment Officer: WilliamTheAwesome

Seriously frozen-rpg. Stop it with "Who are you?". There are still many people who have done more for TOP then you ever could or would, including many old timers.

[Joe Kremlin]

And then having the audacity to come to us after the war and canceling on us? Though, I guess that last point doesn't truly matter in the end, since you only beat us to the punch to cancel.

To be fair, we regretted signing the thing pretty much the day after we announced it.

[Reyne]

Unfortunately for you, this post has landed you on my "Watch for this guys' posts" list.

That was one heck of a post and I have no idea how Dr Dan could respond to that.

Oh, I know exactly how he could respond to that. But, he's wise. He can do his own talking.

[Bodvar Jarl]

I can bring up what TOP tried to pull while we were working to form OUT. Now, thats damaging! Or you could always ask Bodvar or Saber. I'll wait to see what the TOP reply is before I bring that one up.

I am sure some of the old guard from IRON and ODN can recall how difficult TOP made it. Posta0 sticks out particularly as he was the individual I worked with on the ODN side.

If the last card you have to play out is some ancient long since sorted out issue, I think my hand wins.

Though seriously, this thread is going from TSO forming and TOP protecting it to "list all the grievances TOP have accumulated in it's almost three years of existence" that belongs elsewhere, I think.

[Rafael Nadal]

To be fair, we regretted signing the thing pretty much the day after we announced it.

Really? Because TOP seemed to have one of the most active embassies on our boards. I don't think it was the most, but it was certainly top 3 in activity. If you regretted it so much, why didn't you cancel it in the 2 and half months it stood before the Legion-Uni conflict?

Maybe the treaty's title of Stockholm Syndrome had more to do with your internal actions than Bodvar's propensity to use the whip on us in the embassy?

[Buller]

We thought you would turn out alright given a little time but you just kept on making it hard to justify the treaty.

[Bodvar Jarl]

Really? Because TOP seemed to have one of the most active embassies on our boards. I don't think it was the most, but it was certainly top 3 in activity. If you regretted it so much, why didn't you cancel it in the 2 and half months it stood before the Legion-Uni conflict?

Maybe the treaty's title of Stockholm Syndrome had more to do with your internal actions than Bodvar's propensity to use the whip on us in the embassy?

It took a few months before doubts surfaced, partly due to trolling of our allies, moving along to trolling us when war broke out. Then there's a few things you pulled during that war which we have the decency not to reveal, but pretty much killed any interest in retaining you on our list of allies.