Acts of Terrorism

[The Zigur]

Anybody remember when Vox Populi seized the red team senate?

[berbers]

 

Just want to point out that our NAP with DBDC doesn't supersede our mutual defense treaties. If DBDC were to attack Polar we would still be free to hit them back. And they could counter us if we attacked their MDP+ allies.

 

Well then that really begs the question as to why you let Polar get bent over recently, I thought your NAP prevented you, but just not feeling like it is a good reason too.

[d3mon]

 

Everyone is aware that NATO bandwaggoned, but thanks for your help anyway. I fought from a different AA and went back to HB afterwards.

 

You sir are hilarious.

 

 

 

Just want to point out that our NAP with DBDC doesn't supersede our mutual defense treaties. If DBDC were to attack Polar we would still be free to hit them back. And they could counter us if we attacked their MDP+ allies.

 

Hm.. I don't remember seeing TOP defending polaris when DBDC was raiding them.

 

@DBDC and Pax - Stop nuking each other..  For the love of God!! Think about the children. :P

[Master Hakai]

Anybody remember when Vox Populi seized the red team senate?

What are you trying to accomplish here?

[Stewie]

What are you trying to accomplish here?

Feel relevant

[TBRaiders]

 

Well then that really begs the question as to why you let Polar get bent over recently, I thought your NAP prevented you, but just not feeling like it is a good reason too.

 

That is not relevant to this discussion.  TOP played a part in helping us get that resolved.  It was an unsanctioned raid and rather than have it spiral out of control, the alliances involved and their allies worked together to reach a solution.  

[The Zigur]

 

That is not relevant to this discussion.  TOP played a part in helping us get that resolved.  It was an unsanctioned raid and rather than have it spiral out of control, the alliances involved and their allies worked together to reach a solution.  

 

You mean it was a situation which was, as usual, instigated by yourselves. I think alot of people are getting tired of DBDC's rogue antics.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Tywin Lannister

[Neo Uruk]

That is not relevant to this discussion.  TOP played a part in helping us get that resolved.  It was an unsanctioned raid and rather than have it spiral out of control, the alliances involved and their allies worked together to reach a solution.

Now, now, let's not pretend that these "unsanctioned raids" aren't from repeat ofenders

[Sephiroth]

 

You mean it was a situation which was, as usual, instigated by yourselves. I think alot of people are getting tired of DBDC's rogue antics.

People have been sick of GOONS antics for many years, yet GOONS are able to comfortably attack many weaker unaligned or neutral targets without repercussion; while essentially being protected by TOP and Umbrella. So whether a lot of people are getting tired of it doesn't matter if nobody is going to do anything about it.

[TBRaiders]

 

I think alot of people are getting tired of DBDC's rogue antics.

 

I don't blame them at all.  They should band together and take us out of our misery.

[The Zigur]

People have been sick of GOONS antics for many years, yet GOONS are able to comfortably attack many weaker unaligned or neutral targets without repercussion; while essentially being protected by TOP and Umbrella. So whether a lot of people are getting tired of it doesn't matter if nobody is going to do anything about it.

 

If you want to understand the difference between GOONS and DBDC, read my speech "The Return of the Userites." GOONS does not and has never represented an existential threat to the established historical culture and civilization of this world in the way DBDC does.

 

I am not concerned by DBDC for moralistic reasons.

 

 

I don't blame them at all.  They should band together and take us out of our misery.

 

I think many would be content to see your friends burn. You can lord over the upper tier for all they care.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Tywin Lannister

[Sephiroth]

 

If you want to understand the difference between GOONS and DBDC, read my speech "The Return of the Userites." GOONS does not and has never represented an existential threat to the established historical culture and civilization of this world in the way DBDC does.

So your argument is essentially DBDC is playing smarter than GOONS, so people should do something about them out of self interest and fear of being next; rather than any moral objections to what DBDC is doing.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Methrage

[Rokula]

If I didn't have 4 offensive wars right now, I'd smack the crap out of any Polar nation in my range and you wouldn't do anything about it.  They'd get smashed down to 40k NS, just like last time and take it. 

Talk big, get big.  

yeah freaking right Mr Big shot! Special needs children like you need you egos fed so you don't go around crying and stomping on normal more well adjusted kids. Big baby why don't you quit pooping on yourself and maybe the little fellas will quit laughing at you.

[The Zigur]

So your argument is essentially DBDC is playing smarter GOONS, so people should do something about them out of fear of being next; rather than any moral objections to what DBDC is doing.

 

My argument is that DBDC represents an existential threat to the established Culture and Order introduced from The Pacific. My opposition to DBDC is not moral in nature. Were DBDC's culture and practices to overthrow that of civilization this world would be reduced to the chaos found in most other worlds.

[The Zigur]

For a full understanding of what separates our world from the barbarism of others, read the second edition of the Little Red Book, which discusses the history of Francoism in our world.

[Sephiroth]

 

My argument is that DBDC represents an existential threat to the established Culture and Order introduced from The Pacific. My opposition to DBDC is not moral in nature. Were DBDC's culture and practices to overthrow that of civilization this world would be reduced to the chaos found in most other worlds.

So you think people should oppose DBDC not out of self interest or security, but in order to restore the old culture introduced by NPO? Where rather than attacking and being open the reasons behind the war, instead they should fabricate CBs to try demonizing their prey before attacking. Somehow I don't think that will be much of a rallying cry for people to do something about it when they aren't directly threatened.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Methrage

[Rebel Virginia]

Not a log, a direct copy and paste:

<Cerridwyn[PAX]> hello
<Generalchow> sup?
<Cerridwyn[PAX]> i don't know, what is up?
<Generalchow> Well currently we are raiding your lower tier
<Cerridwyn[PAX]> yes, i know
<Generalchow> but not warring unless you guys attack us
<Generalchow> ?
<Cerridwyn[PAX]> and it's not a raid in my opinion, see the owf and my comments about your lords and masters
<Generalchow> We have no issue with pax corvus
<Generalchow> SoD is only raiding unless given reason otherwise, preferably we don't have to make this nuclear
<Generalchow> do we have a agreement?
<Cerridwyn[PAX]> nope
<Generalchow> damn we just finished nuking TDO
<Generalchow> why do you guys never learn
<Cerridwyn[PAX]> just because i am peaceful doesn't mean i will roll over and play dead

They're not attacking you? How generous of them. I am glad that this is nothing more than a raid, and nothing worth getting upset about.

 

Now, since I clearly am out of touch with the modern world, might one of you be patient with me and elaborate on the difference between a war and a raid? And does sending nations to counter the raiders count as aggression on the part of the raided party?

Edited August 3, 2014 by Rebel Virginia

[Garion]

Correct me if I'm wrong Garion, but I do recall a certain Communist from Finland being visited by some Doombirds some time ago. I would be rather chuffed to know how much you cared about that.

Fighting back would have achieved absolutely nothing. Not with the dominance DBDC had in the upper tier, not with the amount of nations we had back then. Pride for pride's sake would have brought us to have nothing over 80k NS, probably, with barely a scratch done to DBDC. Oh so proud, to have fought back! Oh so valiant! Yet somehow 10 months later here we would be, back in the same condition.
 
I wouldn't have ordered my nations to fight back pointlessly, not when everything was over in one day. Does it suck? Hell yeah. Does it burn? Yes, still. It's how things are, tho. We swallowed that bitter pill as we did during Dave.
 

For a more serious reply...
 
Just like nobody has prevented DBDC raids in the past. If R&R (as an example; no political assertion here) is attacked by DBDC, is this a valid excuse not to come to its aid?

That's for us to decide, if and when it will happen. Last time we were attacked we had no ally able to help (you know, Disorder War was raging).
 

Caring for another alliance beyond self-interest is something that can transcend treaties - provided those involved are willing to do so.

 
I won't care for someone that is hellbent on not caring for me.
 

I never said I'd fight for them but I have no problem sending money and troops to nations in need of it. Either during or afterwards. It's still taking action.

 
You're welcome to do it, I don't care either way. I won't take action for someone who won't take action for me.
 

Everyone is aware that NATO bandwaggoned, but thanks for your help anyway. I fought from a different AA and went back to HB afterwards.

:facepalm: remind me where were you again during MQ? Biting ankles in TDO? Edited August 3, 2014 by Garion

[Neo Uruk]

They're not attacking you? How generous of them. I am glad that this is nothing more than a raid, and nothing worth getting upset about.
 
Now, since I clearly am out of touch with the modern world, might one of you be patient with me and elaborate on the difference between a war and a raid? And does sending nations to counter the raiders count as aggression on the part of the raided party?

Well y'know, if you hit back you're just asking for it!

:facepalm: remind me where were you again during MQ? Biting ankles in TDO?

Getting his ass kicked into his face by an Olympic wrestling machine, actually.

[The Zigur]

So you think people should oppose DBDC not out of self interest or security, but in order to restore the old culture introduced by NPO?

 

You misread the situation. The "old culture of the NPO" is the culture that is still dominant today, represented by the Mutual Defense Pact, the Casus Belli and the absolute sovereignty of the Alliance. These practices and others are what establishes stability and trust between sovereign alliances, and the realization of Ordered Anarchy: the ability of nations to freely affiliate and set for themselves their own governing authorities.

 

In the old days, an alliance such as DBDC was not considered a true alliance, but rather an AA of rogues: because DBDC does not respect the sovereignty of other alliances nor is it in tune with the higher culture of civilization. The ultimate goal of Francoism is Order through Stability, and by disrupting the institutions and practices which enable Order, DBDC spreads chaos... and in a state of unordered anarchy nations are never able to achieve their true potential.

[Groucho Marx]

ChairmanHal's whining negated any sympathy desired by Valhalla.

I thought it was Valhalla's underhanded deal with NPO to not trade nukes during the conflict at the expense of everyone else on that front.

[Sephiroth]

 

You misread the situation. The "old culture of the NPO" is the culture that is still dominant today, represented by the Mutual Defense Pact, the Casus Belli and the absolute sovereignty of the Alliance. These practices and others are what establishes stability and trust between sovereign alliances, and the realization of Ordered Anarchy: the ability of nations to freely affiliate and set for themselves their own governing authorities.

 

In the old days, an alliance such as DBDC was not considered a true alliance, but rather an AA of rogues: because DBDC does not respect the sovereignty of other alliances nor is it in tune with the higher culture of civilization. The ultimate goal of Francoism is Order through Stability, and by disrupting the institutions and practices which enable Order, DBDC spreads chaos... and in a state of unordered anarchy nations are never able to achieve their true potential.

Many weaker raiding alliance have been hitting alliances who don't have treaties for many years now and the majority of alliances have remained silent about it, while doing nothing about it. So the culture you consider dominant has been dead for a long time, due to the inaction of the majority of alliances. (as well as most alliances remaining treatied to those who don't respect the sovereignty of alliances who don't hold treaties or remain indirectly allied to such alliances) 

Edited August 3, 2014 by Methrage

[Stewie]

For a full understanding of what separates our world from the barbarism of others, read the second edition of the Little Red Book, which discusses the history of Francoism in our world.

I feel with the discussion about history...
 

ALLARCHON BE PRAISED!!

[Rokula]

They're not attacking you? How generous of them. I am glad that this is nothing more than a raid, and nothing worth getting upset about.

 

Now, since I clearly am out of touch with the modern world, might one of you be patient with me and elaborate on the difference between a war and a raid? And does sending nations to counter the raiders count as aggression on the part of the raided party?

There is no difference. That is why I label this new crop of world power brokers retards, because they talk and act like idiots.

[Rebel Virginia]

 

Lol at your summary, but I'll lay it out for you in 100 words or less:

 

• We don't hate Pax, we hold no past/future grudge.
• This is no raid/war, it's as TB said a clash, we didn't offer/expect peace.  It's an inevitability in the super tier, a problem created by the constraints we're under and we're solving it within those confines.
• They are neutral, which is cool, but it doesn't buy them special protection from anyone, including DBDC.  
• We know they can fight and have friends, so does DBDC.  
• It's not as simple as who we could've hit, but we choose our targets carefully, like we do with everything else.
• Did it with 6 words to

 

A clash? What is that even supposed to mean? Why are you fighting them? Because they're there? I have no dog in this fight, and I truly do not care about Pax Corvus at all. But I am not going to drink your piss and praise the vintage. As ever, I will call a spade a spade. You fellows over at DBDC are simply bored, and you get your kicks from kicking around those who are weaker than you and realistically have no chance of hurting you. Oh, you can ramble all you want about how this is an even fight, but I know better. If it comes to it, you always have TOP and IRON and whoever else is licking your boots these days to come through for you. You simply can't be touched, so you strut around as the imperious hooligans that you are and act as if it some sort of impressive feat. Well, bucko, it ain't. Impetuous children such as yourselves have always masqueraded as respectable alliances, but in the past most of us had the good sense (and the ability) to quickly send you back to your corner. These days those with the power are your buddies, and are either indifferent to or amused by your antics.

 

You may say you want a more dynamic world with greater conflict, and your friends may echo that. But your actions speak louder than your words. What have you done to create conflict? What have you done to challenge the power structure? Nothing. You joined the power structure, and you brought into it anyone who might have been able to oppose it. Those you attack do not have the capability to hurt you. It is a one-sided smack down. There is nothing bold about it. So say whatever you will about your actions, and color me unimpressed.