Over 50k poll for CNRP2 (2)

[TheShammySocialist]

I've only been RPing for two months and already feel like I'm about to get rolled despite my best efforts to keep Euphaia mostly neutral and friendly to other nations.

 

Um, usually when you have stuff that crosses others peoples' borders, like going into Triyun's protectorate space to try to get weaponry, or broadcast stuff, and blatantly say it in your RP, you're going to attract attention.

 

If you roleplay in a provocative way, where you have destabilizing acts going on, whilst trying to engage other nations (like trying to get people to gun run for your FARC-PR movement), you're going to drag them, and other people, into your RP. Whether for bad or good.

 

I roleplay a semi-hyper-vigilant nation for a reason; one, the Americas can get quite violent, quite quick, two, I also have a very large neighbor (who has three times my strength) who likes to hold invasion exercises involving ten marine divisions right next door to me. You really think I like when that happens?

 

No, not at all, but I deal with it in my own way.

 

I could care less about being able to get into CNRP2, I got enough work in real life to deal with, and keeping up with CNRP alone is enough for me. But don't twist peoples' actions and scream "VICTIM" the minute you think you got someone knocking at your door when you open the invitation for them to be there. I have no intention of rolling you, or otherwise. If you're going to make an internal rebellion into a public thing, the odds are someone will get involved in some way, shape, or form, this is an interactive community. The United States regularly impinges on other nations' sovereignty to perform covert action, 95% of which, none of us will probably ever know about, because they're black-on-black operations.

 

Just because I conduct myself in a bit of a similar manner, does not mean you're about to be invaded.

 

Chill. Out.

Edited May 26, 2014 by TheShammySocialist

[Captain Enema]

 

 

Chill. Out.

 

This is about the best part of the whole thing. Shammy is a decent guy, you should be asking him for advice as to how to proceed. 

[Euphaia]

Whoa. It seems like your the guy in need of chilling out.

I meant no offense to you. I never said and never meant to demean, disrespect, or insult you

You are the one attacking inside someone's sovereign borders, rattling your diplomatic saber, and increasing air patrols around my nation. From my point of view, your country is appearing increasingly aggressive, even a little hostile, stance towards us. Not to mention your probably at least twice my size, maybe even six or seven times my size. What am I supposed to think here?

It's a violation of sovereign borders and of international law, come on, you know it. :p

Yes, the US does a lot of things, that doesn't make it right though. Why do you think a lot of other nations dislikes the US, and even relations with some of the US' allies has become strained? Karzai who should be a grateful ally, won't even talk to us half the time anymore.

Enough though. No hard feelings, truce.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Euphaia

[TheShammySocialist]

Whoa. It seems like your the guy in need of chilling out.

 

 

That entire text wall was meant in the calmest of manners.

 

 

I meant no offense to you.

 

 

I know you didn't, but clearly you don't exactly understand why people are taking an interest in your roleplay. Hence my explanation.

 

 

You are the one, however attacking inside someone's sovereign borders, rattling your diplomatic saber, and increasing air patrols around my nation. From my point of view, your country is appearing increasingly aggressive in stance towards us.

 

 

Of course it appears that way. Its called measured escalation. That's how I roll, does it mean I'm going to invade you? No.

 

Again, nations do this all the time.

 

 

 

Yes, the US does a lot of things, that doesn't make it right though. Why do you think a lot of other nations dislikes the US, and even relations with some of the US' allies has become strained?

 

And a lot of other nations do the same thing, or would do the same thing if they had the capabilities to do so.

 

Its all about who can do what with what capabilities, the United States just gets the schtick for it, because we're big man on campus. Other nations are frequently engaged in similar movements.

Edited May 26, 2014 by TheShammySocialist

[Euphaia]

This is besides the point though.

What I meant is that the big guys have the original CNRP to do their own thing and whatever they so wish with pretty much impunity already.

Since a second CNRP doesn't impinge or infringe on their ability to do so in the first CNRP world, why not let the littler guys have their own second CNRP world.

It's a win-win for all.

[Mogar]

We will infringe on your abilities depending on what you're doing, I don't think Rudolph would take very kindly to a prolonged civil war being fought next door to him any more than shammy has.

[Euphaia]

That entire text wall was meant in the calmest of manners.
 
 

 
 
I know you didn't, but clearly you don't exactly understand why people are taking an interest in your roleplay. Hence my explanation.
 
 

 
 
Of course it appears that way. Its called measured escalation. That's how I roll, does it mean I'm going to invade you? No.
 
Again, nations do this all the time.
 
 
 

 
And a lot of other nations do the same thing, or would do the same thing if they had the capabilities to do so.
 
Its all about who can do what with what capabilities, the United States just gets the schtick for it, because we're big man on campus. Other nations are frequently engaged in similar movements.

Yes, and I was,role playing how countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and now I think Germany most likely act and feel. Outraged with a legitimate claim to violation of national sovereignty and most likely a violation of international laws and conventions. Most likely viewing some actions as an aggressive or hostile act, greatly concerned that an unwanted war they likely couldn't win is coming their way.

Again though, this is all getting beside the point I was trying (evidentially not very well) to make. Truce, Shammy?

[Euphaia]

I probably won't do a second civil war. Not unless Shammy and Triyun get so sick and fed up with me that they toss me out the door. :p

I honestly thought he already was and was wanting to roll me to get rid of my nation. I am glad and relieved to hear that I was mistaken in thought, and do apologize.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad people are interested in my RP. I just mistakenly feared Stormlands was ramping up for a war against me, and probably over reacted just a little (sorry, Shammy).

Still though, what's wrong with letting the big guys in one RP world, where they can and have been doing what they are doing, and having a second RP world with a nation strength limit? The big guys still have their fun, the little guys don't have to worry about getting easily rolled (not taking a shot at any one with this comment), everybody gets a nation, and everybody gets to RP.

Seems fair and win-win, at least in my humble opinion, anyways.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Euphaia

[Mogar]

The problem is the 50k nations cried about the exclusion, and so we created this vote, and now anyone is allowed in.

 

The ruleset for CNRP2 is going to be modified fairly drastically to CNRP1, as well as we are no longer going to set precedents, every single debate is going to be case by case, we're using a different system of enacting rule changes as well. I do agree that there is no reason we can't have two separate games, hence we created a second one.

[Captain Enema]

You do know that this is a voting thread for CNRP2. 

 

You should take your discussion to the ooc cnrp thread.

 

That being said, I think you really back off shammy. He's a decent guy and if you get ahold of him in private, I'm certain he can explain why he did what he did.

 

Most others, me included, would have invaded you.

[Euphaia]

Yeah, I am backing off of him. ( My apologies again, Shammy)

I did vote and gave my reason why, just not in the best way.

What I really meant to say but bungled up, is that one world where big nations can be and do virtually whatever they want to whomever they want, and a second world for just smaller nations, seems fair and like a win-win, and don't understand where the problem is with that idea.

I secondly meant and also managed to bungle, that it is a legitimate fear(and IMo, anyways, somewhat unfair) for any fairly new, small nation to be attacked, and most likely easily rolled, by a much larger nation (ofcourse if the smaller nation is dumb enough to try and invade atheist much larger nation, or launch unprovoked airs strikes at the larger nation, he/she will get his just desserts). CNRP2 could be a world where those smaller nations wouldn't have to worry about something like that happening.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Euphaia

[Mogar]

We certainly have been more cordial to allowing freedom, I would love to roll Tywin for example but I have no intentions of doing so unless he directly attacks me.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Then we got Subtle, who has an idea of NS ranges. sounds quite nice, apart from three issues I got with it. First, if we go with this, I guess NS gets uncapped and you could have people like Lynneth running around with full armament. 50k+ NS nations would field millions of soldiers. Sure, they can't use them on the offense... but I could just gobble up land one after the other "legitimately" and in the end, be still too big for anyone to "do something about it". Would, in my opinion, need more consideration for that. Second, what is a legitimate reason for attacking a smaller guy? Sure, terrorism appears obvious. But what's with less obvious matters? State-organised drug running? Attacking a nation I pledged to protect? Being a complete crackpot who threatens me with nuclear arms? Is that legitimate? Is this up to the GMs to decide on a case-by-case basis (with all the issues that could cause)? And not rolling the person is still leaving quite a large range of options. For example, while I did not send forces after Tywin, though he pretty much insulted my nation, made a huge fuss, spied on an Asian nation and proclaimed he'd be able to smuggle drugs into my nation, I did not do anything much on the offensive. Sole show of force I did plan was to send a token force and disprove his "triangle of death". But if I'd actually be serious about him and the sole limitation is not to kick him out of Hawaii, well, it still would mean I could just take down his military, then firebomb his towns, throw a load of herbicide and defoliant on the Isles and then maybe leave behind a good number of cluster bombs with anti-personal mines to keep him occupied for a while. You think that'd be still fine? Lastly, in my personal opinion, I do not like this idea of an artificial barrier. No, I don't think every small insult warrants a full-scale invasion and extermination effort or even any military action, but I think essentially, people should be able to freely interact with each other, not just hide behind some artificial NS created barrier.

 

For clarification, I meant not insults, I meant actually hostile acts, universally recognized as such. Terrorism, deliberately crossing borders with military personnel without permission, espionage, etc. State-sponsored drug running could be justified as a form of espionage. Protection of a nation could easily be done without attacking the aggressor, by stationing troops in the nation you are protecting.

 

Over 50k nation strength I assume?

 

No offense to those nations' handlers in the slightest, but they pretty much already rule the roost in the other CNRP and do whatever they want there.

 

I've only been RPing for two months and already feel like I'm about to get rolled despite my best efforts to keep Euphaia mostly neutral and friendly to other nations.

 

I say let the big nations have at it in the other CNRP, and leave CNRP to the smaller guys who can't even hope to compete with the big nations.

 

It seems like the most fair option to me.  It's not like they can't have RP at all, there is still the first CNRP world where they can do almost anything they want to do in it.

No, two nations rule the roost, it is not all 50k+ nations. Trust me, I'm just barely 50k+ but if I joined CNRP, I would have to toe the line just the same as any miniature nation.

 

This is besides the point though.

What I meant is that the big guys have the original CNRP to do their own thing and whatever they so wish with pretty much impunity already.

Since a second CNRP doesn't impinge or infringe on their ability to do so in the first CNRP world, why not let the littler guys have their own second CNRP world.

It's a win-win for all.

Not really.

 

Yeah, I am backing off of him. ( My apologies again, Shammy)

I did vote and gave my reason why, just not in the best way.

What I really meant to say but bungled up, is that one world where big nations can be and do virtually whatever they want to whomever they want, and a second world for just smaller nations, seems fair and like a win-win, and don't understand where the problem is with that idea.

I secondly meant and also managed to bungle, that it is a legitimate fear(and IMo, anyways, somewhat unfair) for any fairly new, small nation to be attacked, and most likely easily rolled, by a much larger nation (ofcourse if the smaller nation is dumb enough to try and invade atheist much larger nation, or launch unprovoked airs strikes at the larger nation, he/she will get his just desserts). CNRP2 could be a world where those smaller nations wouldn't have to worry about something like that happening.

So a world completely without superpowers, or even regional powers, in other words. A word basically back to the feudal ages when you think about it, only with modern sensibilities instead.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Subtleknifewielder

[Mogar]

Personally I think we're going for just a world without hyperpowers, which is the problem in CNRP1. Troop restrictions prevent anyone from simply rolling over someone, since after a certain point everyone is generally equal.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Mogar

[Subtleknifewielder]

Eh, that gets to the point of straining credulity, and you can always put limits on land they control, too, if you are worried about them gobbling up all the white space.

[Euphaia]

I don't know if this is much of a fix, but it is at least an idea to start with.

Would a slight increase to 55k, 60k, or 65k nation strength be more fair then? Allow a few more " medium sized" nations in?

We could also add to it the land control limits Subtle suggested too. Good suggestion.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Euphaia

[Evangeline Anovilis]

So a world completely without superpowers, or even regional powers, in other words. A word basically back to the feudal ages when you think about it, only with modern sensibilities instead.

And then there were the Houses of Luxembourg, Wittelsbach, Habsburg and a few more, that pretty much were the powers of their time.

[Subtleknifewielder]

You could also do a gradient type thing (may be using the wrong word, but bear with me a sec). Like set bigger limits for higher nations, but make them progressively further apart and more difficult to reach. Like, few limiters on anyone below 50k, which seems to be the generally agreed upon ceiling, anything above that counts only for half what it otherwise would, then once you got to like, 75k or something, anything beyond that counts as a third, etc. that's just a general idea and an example, not suggesting you have to use that exact model. Something that would basically look like a curved line on a graph.

 

Shouldn't be too hard if you just assign some arbitrary limits for each level of infra and tech.

[Shave N Haircut]

I think the present Quebec situation demonstrates what the problem is quite well. This whole situation could be awesome, an imperialist power comes over to America and shakes shit up, forcing the Americas to make quick choices on what they want to do about it and bringing in support from all across the world, while the Imperialists themselves alarmedly gather their allies to possibly have to defend their actions. The whole thing winds up to be a big dividing line in the world between who will support Neo-Imperialism and who will not.

 

Except...

 

One of the American powers is literally five times the size of the Imperialists. We either pull back or we're annihilated and that's that, game over, no drama, no story (Or, we cease to recognize Lynneth, but I'd rather not do that, even if the story would be far more interesting without them.)

[Markus Wilding]

Honestly, the problem isn't that Lynneth is large. The problem is that you put yourself in a bad position where you would be annihilated because you're overstretching yourself. You have colonies or protectorates in or soon-to-be-in Asia, Germany, Switzerland and now you made a move to America. Each one of those requires soldiers that you can't use to defend France proper or go to war with someone unless you want to start losing control of those places. Each place that's not-France you commit to, you lose that much of your ability to project power other places and defend France.

 

Could you beat Lynneth in a war? Maybe. You could certainly bloody him if you played your cards right and fought well. But just because someone is larger doesn't mean you have to pull back. There's still some interesting stories that can come out of this, and there is zero guarantee you will be destroyed...unless you think that already, in which case you will be, because you already gave up in your mind.

[Hereno]

This isn't 1600. If you want to have Eurocentric colonialism RP, EU3 is waiting for you.

What you say would have happened: interesting losing battle against united natives
What would have actually happened: oh hey I own Quebec now

Edited May 26, 2014 by Hereno

[Shave N Haircut]

Honestly, the problem isn't that Lynneth is large. The problem is that you put yourself in a bad position where you would be annihilated because you're overstretching yourself. You have colonies or protectorates in or soon-to-be-in Asia, Germany, Switzerland and now you made a move to America. Each one of those requires soldiers that you can't use to defend France proper or go to war with someone unless you want to start losing control of those places. Each place that's not-France you commit to, you lose that much of your ability to project power other places and defend France.

 

Could you beat Lynneth in a war? Maybe. You could certainly bloody him if you played your cards right and fought well. But just because someone is larger doesn't mean you have to pull back. There's still some interesting stories that can come out of this, and there is zero guarantee you will be destroyed...unless you think that already, in which case you will be, because you already gave up in your mind.

Without the massive super power I could have at least put up an interesting fight, but I'd have to deploy my entire navy to have even a chance against the fraction being sent, and that's without backup from anyone else. It's not that I've overextended, it's that Even if this was on continental France I would have 0 chance of putting up any more of a fight than being absolutely curb-stomped. I'm not saying that I'm just going to back up and give in, I'm just saying that it would have been far more interesting to see otherwise.

[Zoot Zoot]

Without the massive super power I could have at least put up an interesting fight, but I'd have to deploy my entire navy to have even a chance against the fraction being sent, and that's without backup from anyone else. It's not that I've overextended, it's that Even if this was on continental France I would have 0 chance of putting up any more of a fight than being absolutely curb-stomped. I'm not saying that I'm just going to back up and give in, I'm just saying that it would have been far more interesting to see otherwise.

 

Lynneth is subject to strength caps, just as I am. Think about the situation if he wasnt under strength restrictions. Sometimes it pays to rp the senario out and see how it goes. I know for one Lynneth isnt in the habit of rolling people... in fact I think in all the years ive RP'd with him, hes rolled like 1 or 2 people?

[Lynneth]

 

Lynneth is subject to strength caps, just as I am. Think about the situation if he wasnt under strength restrictions. Sometimes it pays to rp the senario out and see how it goes. I know for one Lynneth isnt in the habit of rolling people... in fact I think in all the years ive RP'd with him, hes rolled like 1 or 2 people?

I intentionally rolled exactly one person, if I remember right. At least I tried. They went inactive during the war from RL business.

Eva was unintentional; I wanted to replace the government, and the rerolled to elsewhere, if I remember right.

Other than that I don't remember where I explicitly fought a war to do more than replace the government or take territorial concessions.

 

Not to mention that I'm the [i]best[/i] at war. :V:

[Shave N Haircut]

I was unaware that there were strength caps. This in combination with discussion on the IRC leads me to retract my point. Thank you all for your cooperation and goodnight! *Exits stage left*