IRON Announcement

[Rush Sykes]

So LSF acts stupidly and they get abandoned, Umbrella acts stupidly and everyone burns for them? Gotcha.

 

To say Umbrella's action was stupid is a bit of a stretch. That very same scenario has played out hundreds of times.. it never ended in war before. The only reason it did this time, was not because of the what... it was the who and when. Your entire coalition leadership has already admitted this, do not try to spin it differently now. What Umb did had never before been acted on and deemed as an act of war (so long as the attacks were happening efficiently)... what LSF did, was ALWAYS deemed to be an act of war. It is not even comparing apples to oranges. Its more like apples to pomegranates.

[Commander shepard]

The only reason? I'm sure Umbrella being arrogant is a reason too.

[Rush Sykes]

The only reason? I'm sure Umbrella being arrogant is a reason too.

 

If being arrogant is a CB, I like this brave new world. You may want to rethink that before you tout it.

[Sir Humphrey]

 
To say Umbrella's action was stupid is a bit of a stretch. That very same scenario has played out hundreds of times.. it never ended in war before. The only reason it did this time, was not because of the what... it was the who and when. Your entire coalition leadership has already admitted this, do not try to spin it differently now. What Umb did had never before been acted on and deemed as an act of war (so long as the attacks were happening efficiently)... what LSF did, was ALWAYS deemed to be an act of war. It is not even comparing apples to oranges. Its more like apples to pomegranates.

Just because the war was about more than the CB does not invalidate the CB itself. Just as a CB can still be valid even if others have chosen previously not to act on it.

But I'm sure you know this. You just prefer to spin it yourself, and then try to claim the high ground.

[Rush Sykes]

Just because the war was about more than the CB does not invalidate the CB itself. Just as a CB can still be valid even if others have chosen previously not to act on it.

But I'm sure you know this. You just prefer to spin it yourself, and then try to claim the high ground.

 

I did not suggest that it did. My whole argument was confined to the correlation of LSF's nonsense with NoR vs Umbrella's situation with AI. One was ALWAYS an act of war. The other has not once prior to this incident, ever been the cause of a global war. I 100% appreciate the who and when aspect, it is the way you have to play politics.

[Neo Uruk]

So LSF acts stupidly and they get abandoned, Umbrella acts stupidly and everyone burns for them? Gotcha.

Please tell me you're not going to do this. It's a road that's been trampled on until the signs to the next town over got removed.

[Sir Humphrey]

 I did not suggest that it did. My whole argument was confined to the correlation of LSF's nonsense with NoR vs Umbrella's situation with AI. One was ALWAYS an act of war. The other has not once prior to this incident, ever been the cause of a global war. I 100% appreciate the who and when aspect, it is the way you have to play politics.

You and AirMe were both critical of Umb's actions in provoking the war in the original DoW (you mentioned that it was "completely idiotic of Umb" not to talk to Ai, and AirMe agreed with calling Umb "on their crap"). So I think there is a stronger correlation than you might now wish to acknowledge.

[Neo Uruk]

You and AirMe were both critical of Umb's actions in provoking the war in the original DoW (you mentioned that it was "completely idiotic of Umb" not to talk to Ai, and AirMe agreed with calling Umb "on their crap"). So I think there is a stronger correlation than you might now wish to acknowledge.

Yeah not liking what someone does and thinking they're flat-out retarded are two different things.  It was dumb not to talk to AI but who the hell thought it would cause a global war? That's a reach if I've ever seen it.

[Azreal]

You and AirMe were both critical of Umb's actions in provoking the war in the original DoW (you mentioned that it was "completely idiotic of Umb" not to talk to Ai, and AirMe agreed with calling Umb "on their crap"). So I think there is a stronger correlation than you might now wish to acknowledge.

 

Sure if you ignore the general ill filling between Umb and Ai et all. and our knowledge of that and LSF's unprovoked aggresion against an alliance that hadn't done anything particualrly important for quite a while because they got bored and forknowledge of INT's stance on such an act, they are exactly the same thing.

[Sir Humphrey]

 Sure if you ignore the general ill filling between Umb and Ai et all. and our knowledge of that and LSF's unprovoked aggresion against an alliance that hadn't done anything particualrly important for quite a while because they got bored and forknowledge of INT's stance on such an act, they are exactly the same thing.

Meh, I have never personally been critical of Int's actions in not going to war - though I might dispute the prior knowledge of Int's stance part given the discussions that occurred at the time. The point was just that such standards did not seem to be applied consistently to other treaty partners. But I understand pragmatically why DH had/has a much greater influence than LSF did :)

[D34th]

So LSF acts stupidly and they get abandoned, Umbrella acts stupidly and everyone burns for them? Gotcha.

 

May be CnG defended Umbrella because MK made another promise to CnG.  :awesome: 

"If you help us, I promise to let you attack NoR, this time I'm totally serious, like, 100% serious." - MK

[Judge X]

IRON, AI and NPO agreed to these points for the war to start:

Umbrella would take significant damage to reduce their power
Umbrella would be taken from its "untouchable" position
There would be no reps.
Damage would be kept at a lower level for MK and potentially GOONS for our joint ally in NG.
NG would support whoever was hit (either side)

Unfortunately to achieve the main goal, tough calls had to be made. Every ounce of damage to the Umbrella coalition required equal damage to Ai. Yes I was done with that. Some have forgotten that. I don't fault you. I don't fault IRON for moving on, in fact I called it very early on. For every other alliance that used that war to push a different agenda and now try to act all butt hurt; you are cowards and weak. But for IRON, nothing was done wrong here and I wish them the best. They have different goal posts now, may they achieve them.

For the EQ war, lets go over some simple details. At the end of it, NE and I talked and he said he trusted my judgement. The extended war on Umbrella failed because those other agenda groups couldn't hit CnG more, couldn't hit NG more, couldn't hit MK or GOONS more, couldn't hit TOP more all dove out quick. Save me your rhetoric. In fact it is 100% accurate to say those that wanted more on TOP, CnG or MK/GOONS got shafted. So, go make your own war and wear the big boy pants... or just shut up. And this is why micro's & the treaty web fails. You can't war on your own so you have to ride someone else then get all upset when YOUR needs aren't met.

If you want YOUR needs met, then handle your business better. /cheers spreadsheet warriors.

Those of you saying this was my war. You are correct in parts. Aspects of this war were planned and executed by a small circle of people of which I was a part of.

Umbrella was the target. Umbrella took the physical damage. Umbrella took the political/image damage. That is win. If it wasn't for you... do something about it. And now you know why you weren't at the big boy table or channel.

 
I see how you feel about your longest allies. When others were chaff in the wind of war. Those who claim the darkness yet run after 2 weeks of war. You are truly a double dealer. Your stepping down will not keep the NPO from the costs of your actions. Edited May 28, 2013 by Judge X

[Mr Vicarious]

Or, while we're inching out of the IRON C&G fetish mindset--and this is going to be a real shocker, here--maybe IRON and other alliances could have even just wanted a longer war without any regard for C&G.

 

Schatt, get out of my head.

[AntyCrist]

If being arrogant is a CB, I like this brave new world. You may want to rethink that before you tout it.

But it will make a CB that's always been negotiated away into a war.

[Commander shepard]

But it will make a CB that's always been negotiated away into a war.

 

Which he seemed to have missed.

[Ardus]

 
I see how you feel about your longest allies. When others were chaff in the wind of war. Those who claim the darkness yet run after 2 weeks of war. You are truly a double dealer. Your stepping down will not keep the NPO from the costs of your actions.

Wait, when did you wind up in charge of TPF?  I must have missed that memo or somebody's been goofing with the wiki.

 

I'm not sure why you would be upset if NPO stuck aggressively to clearly defined goals, achieved those goals, and then sued to end the war--to the benefit of your [i]mutual allies[/i] across the no man's land in C&G.  Setting aside all the fluff about what GATO did or didn't do that was brought up earlier in the thread, would you have preferred a longer war at their (and INT's) expense?

[Sarkin]

 
I see how you feel about your longest allies. When others were chaff in the wind of war. Those who claim the darkness yet run after 2 weeks of war. You are truly a double dealer. Your stepping down will not keep the NPO from the costs of your actions.

 

Well, that's pretty strong talk from an alliance leader toward an ally, especially out in public. Or, should we expect to see a cancellation of the Red-Fire Pact shortly?

[AntyCrist]

Wait, when did you wind up in charge of TPF?  I must have missed that memo or somebody's been goofing with the wiki.

 

I'm not sure why you would be upset if NPO stuck aggressively to clearly defined goals, achieved those goals, and thenbefore completing it sued to end the war--to the benefit of your mutual allies across the no man's land in C&G.  Setting aside all the fluff about what GATO did or didn't do that was brought up earlier in the thread, would you have preferred a longer war at their (and INT's) expense?

Fixed

[berbers]

 
I see how you feel about your longest allies. When others were chaff in the wind of war. Those who claim the darkness yet run after 2 weeks of war. You are truly a double dealer. Your stepping down will not keep the NPO from the costs of your actions.

 

I understand your frustration, but if you think NPO wouldn't help ANY ally out on the opposite side of a war, you are sadly mistaken.  NATO was the significant beneficiary of NPO being able to reach across a war divide and take all of it's allies wishes and well being into account.  We didn't ask or expect it, but NPO did it anyway, because to do anything else is against their nature. 

 

In Dave War we benefited, in Equilibrium CnG did.  Next war it might be you, so try to keep things in perspective.

 

o/ NPO

[magicninja]

Please give me an example of who was begging to get out of the EQ coalition? From what it appeared at the end of the war, DH/C&G were entering Peace Mode/Guerillas with heavy haste and not really effecting many alliance. I would love to hear what alliances were bowing down to get out. If that were the case, DH/C&G would of stayed at war simply to win.

DH/CnG and Gratsphere would gladly have stayed at war and I do believe that there were some alliances in EQ under some serious strain that would have broken had the war gone on the way it was for much longer. Unfortunately, from what I could tell from all the talks was there was one alliance who forgot to apply any kind of winning strategy and had been completely ruined and couldn't sustain what would have needed to be done. So, in respect to them and what they gave up during the war we decided to all peace out at once to let them surrender with us instead of having to peace out alone.

[HeroofTime55]

Tell that to the 4 alliances who didn't have a fighting nation over 60k....or 5 alliances over 70k if you want to count FARK. You seem to think our side really cared about the middle and low tiers....we didn't. 

 

Can we pull the screenshots up where you literally told people to come out at the end of the war so you could make it look like you put in more than you actually did?

Once WAE, always WAE.

[Beauty]

DH/CnG and Gratsphere would gladly have stayed at war and I do believe that there were some alliances in EQ under some serious strain that would have broken had the war gone on the way it was for much longer. Unfortunately, from what I could tell from all the talks was there was one alliance who forgot to apply any kind of winning strategy and had been completely ruined and couldn't sustain what would have needed to be done. So, in respect to them and what they gave up during the war we decided to all peace out at once to let them surrender with us instead of having to peace out alone.

 

Umm... I don't remember ever seeing GATO drop below 80% of peace mode the entire time...

[magicninja]

Umm... I don't remember ever seeing GATO drop below 80% of peace mode the entire time...

Sounds about right but that has nothing to do with whether or not we would have continued with what we were doing. We played it that way so we could go for a long stretch if we needed to. That's what we were told to plan for. That the war ended sooner than it seems we all thought it would is no fault of ours.

@HoT- I told them to come out if they wanted because a lot of them were itching to fight and were disappointed that the war ended so soon. We did what we were supposed to do. We would have loved continuing pushing on those we were fighting from the top down. It was working out gloriously. Unfortunately, things outside our control put an end to it.

[Beauty]

Sounds about right but that has nothing to do with whether or not we would have continued with what we were doing. We played it that way so we could go for a long stretch if we needed to. That's what we were told to plan for. That the war ended sooner than it seems we all thought it would is no fault of ours.

@HoT- I told them to come out if they wanted because a lot of them were itching to fight and were disappointed that the war ended so soon. We did what we were supposed to do. We would have loved continuing pushing on those we were fighting from the top down. It was working out gloriously. Unfortunately, things outside our control put an end to it.

 

Then I am guessing it was a pretty small alliance you kept down, and No I am not saying it was not a smart tactic to remain in Peace Mode. I am more inferring I did not believe you.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Rotavele

[Schattenmann]

DH/CnG and Gratsphere would gladly have stayed at war and I do believe that there were some alliances in EQ under some serious strain that would have broken had the war gone on the way it was for much longer. Unfortunately, from what I could tell from all the talks was there was one alliance who forgot to apply any kind of winning strategy and had been completely ruined and couldn't sustain what would have needed to be done. So, in respect to them and what they gave up during the war we decided to all peace out at once to let them surrender with us instead of having to peace out alone.

This is pure comedy gold.  You all surrendered to save face for VE.  Never change, MagicNinja.  Hear that, VE?  It's your fault Umbrella Coalition surrendered.