Which alliance is the biggest MK lapdog?

[Reyas]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1342404774' post='3010617']
The problem isn't that ODN or Umbrella didn't defend Sparta or MHA. The problem is that you let the war happen in the first place. ODN as a member of CnG and Umbrella as a member of DH are both part of very influential blocs. Both alliances had a huge amount of NS. Both alliances have leadership that I believe to be competent. So there is no reason why you shouldn't have been able to say, while alliances starting acting as if that war was going to happen, "This war you guys are starting to talk is going to end up in our direct allies getting rolled, and so its not going to happen" ODN and Umbrella combined in making such a thing clear [i]should [/i]have the clout to make that happen. You both were big alliances strong alliances that should be able to project power. Instead both Umbrella and ODN showed no will to turn around the plans being made by MK and others and instead went along with plans being made that led to their allies being rolled. I don't blame you for not defending Sparta, or for Umbrella not defending Sparta and MHA. I do however blame you for the plans you made.
[/quote]

You're right, Sparta, I am sorry we couldn't stop IRON and TOP from declaring war on NpO, or RIA from signing a treaty with NpO, or FARK from signing a treaty with NpO and declaring on NPO. There. I hope we can all be friends again.

[Monster]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342408066' post='3010633']
You of all people know that most of MK's talk is just that.
[/quote]

It's not. I paid a heavy price for not devoting as much attention to it as I should have due to intervening circumstances because the "MK question" could have been dealt with a lot sooner and in a proper fashion.

As someone who was responsible for things like DH being signed and the relationships that preceded, I ended up quickly learning that once disagreements start appearing, you need to cave or they're going to hate you. I'd rather have no part of that.


The problem is, unfortunately, too much sentimental attachment has been accorded to the DH dynamic rather than rational thinking.




[quote]lol @ this point tbh[/quote]

Not really. I mean, it's not only him, but other people wanted to get rid of DH and they've pretty much resigned themselves to doing nothing.




[quote]So why was Fark so hostile to Umbrella? Why did Fark try to abuse MHA (specifically Myth) and Sparta's interactions with Umbrella to try and strengthen their position?
[/quote]

I don't really remember Fark being hostile to Umbrella at that point. They were kind of indignant before over the TPF war thing to an unreasonable extent, but they hadn't been openly hostile.

As for the rest, rational self-interest. Every bloc posts logs of conversations gov officials have that are vital to the interests of their signatories. It was intentionally made into a thing to discredit MHA by people who wanted the treaty cancelled. Virtually every bloc in CN has done what you're describing. it's not a particularly heinous act to try to use the treaty ties your partners have if you're being targeted.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Roquentin

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Reyas' timestamp='1342408245' post='3010634']
You're right, Sparta, I am sorry we couldn't stop IRON and TOP from declaring war on NpO, or RIA from signing a treaty with NpO, or FARK from signing a treaty with NpO and declaring on NPO. There. I hope we can all be friends again.
[/quote]

If MK, an alliance that is much smaller than ODN, can go a long way to setting up the pieces to make all that happen, then ODN should be able to do just as much. TBH, your response just shows a very naivete view of how CN works.

[Reyas]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1342409160' post='3010642']
If MK, an alliance that is much smaller than ODN, can go a long way to setting up the pieces to make all that happen, then ODN should be able to do just as much. TBH, your response just shows a very naivete view of how CN works.
[/quote]

Why should we have? The only thing connecting Sparta to that side was an ODP between FARK and NpO (and the RIA treaty which was hastily signed just before the war broke out). I think you're giving MK way too much credit for a war focusing on TOP and IRON getting their revenge.

[Trigger]

What the hell has happened these last several pages?! What happened to all the NG love? I demand more attention.... also voted NG.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1342409160' post='3010642']
If MK, an alliance that is much smaller than ODN, can go a long way to setting up the pieces to make all that happen, then ODN should be able to do just as much. TBH, your response just shows a very naivete view of how CN works.
[/quote]
Did you not miss the part where Fark and RIA signed their treaties and Fark pre-empted NPO?

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342411182' post='3010651']
Did you not miss the part where Fark and RIA signed their treaties and Fark pre-empted NPO?
[/quote]

There were plenty of people gunning for SF leading up to that war. Only the blind couldn't see the writing on the wall.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1342411644' post='3010655']
There were plenty of people gunning for SF leading up to that war. Only the blind couldn't see the writing on the wall.
[/quote]
Oh, so now it's a grouping of alliances aiming for a separate grouping that [i]isn't ODN's ally[/i]. Huh.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Neo Uruk

[flak attack]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1342408435' post='3010636']
I ended up quickly learning that once disagreements start appearing, you need to cave or they're going to hate you. I'd rather have no part of that.
[/quote]
You really learned the wrong thing from all our discussions. It's not disagreement that MK disliked about you. It was that you pitched a fit about your disagreement too late for anything to change and then never offered any alternative at all.

[Monster]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1342416194' post='3010675']
You really learned the wrong thing from all our discussions. It's not disagreement that MK disliked about you. It was that you pitched a fit about your disagreement too late for anything to change and then never offered any alternative at all.
[/quote]


I don't really want to make this thread about me so this is going to be my last post, but I don't think the antagonism could be chalked up to one instance since it had been an ongoing thing for a long time.

[Taget]

TLR is NPO's lapdog. Thus I'd like some guidance from Pacifica before deciding who to vote for.

[Stewie]

You're Non Grata's Laptop Taget, get it right...

[Litha Riddle]

We are all puppets of Pansy in truth

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342408066' post='3010633']


So why was Fark so hostile to Umbrella? Why did Fark try to abuse MHA (specifically Myth) and Sparta's interactions with Umbrella to try and strengthen their position?
[/quote]

I was MoFA at time, and at least in our circles Fark was not hostile against Umbrella. They never tried to sabotage MHA and Sparta relations with umbrella. In fact a greatvpart of my term I tried to suggest that Fark to clear any bad feelings with Umbrella. They were not like "never ! We hate them" it was more... "meh...I am not sure"

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1342444388' post='3010731']
I was MoFA at time, and at least in our circles Fark was not hostile against Umbrella. They never tried to sabotage MHA and Sparta relations with umbrella. In fact a greatvpart of my term I tried to suggest that Fark to clear any bad feelings with Umbrella. They were not like "never ! We hate them" it was more... "meh...I am not sure"
[/quote]
If you can't see the blatantly obvious manipulation then you need to take a step back. Fark was hostile, and they tried to use MHA and Sparta to strengthen their position and make Umbrella out as "that guy" in the coalition.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342471455' post='3010826']
If you can't see the blatantly obvious manipulation then you need to take a step back. Fark was hostile, and they tried to use MHA and Sparta to strengthen their position and make Umbrella out as "that guy" in the coalition.
[/quote]
You mean Sparta wanted their allies to defend them when they were attacked? How shockingly selfish of them.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Ogaden' timestamp='1342473258' post='3010851']
You mean Sparta wanted their allies to defend them when they were attacked? How shockingly selfish of them.
[/quote]
You're joking right? Why couldn't Sparta/MHA defend Umbrella, in that case?

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342473539' post='3010854']
You're joking right? Why couldn't Sparta/MHA defend Umbrella, in that case?
[/quote]
Haha are you for real.

Self declared "DH inner circle" right here folks.

Umbrella didn't even defend Sparta from the Bronies.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Ogaden

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Ogaden' timestamp='1342474233' post='3010862']
Haha are you for real.[/quote]
My post is as serious as yours.

[quote]
Umbrella didn't even defend Sparta from the Bronies.
[/quote]
Why should Umbrella do something counterproductive to all its other allies? Much less for someone who decided to defend itself by hiding in peace mode?

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342474521' post='3010866']
Why should Umbrella do something counterproductive to all its other allies? Much less for someone who decided to defend itself by hiding in peace mode?
[/quote]
Well I'm convinced

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1342394153' post='3010570']
We were actually going to help out Sparta despite our grievances until you got involved.
[/quote]
Yes, monetary aid. That's exactly what an alliance with 300 members and 40K average ns [i]needs[/i].

When's Umbrella going to cancel on Goons now that Rey's involved?

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342479146' post='3010903']
Yes, monetary aid. That's exactly what an alliance with 300 members and 40K average ns [i]needs[/i].

When's Umbrella going to cancel on Goons now that Rey's involved?
[/quote]

Unlike Roquentin, Rey has not gone out of his way to deliberately sour the relationship between our two alliances. Nor was he instantly promoted to a relatively important office upon joining. He also isn't unstable.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1342498850' post='3011041']
Unlike Roquentin, Rey has not gone out of his way to deliberately sour the relationship between our two alliances. Nor was he instantly promoted to a relatively important office upon joining. He also isn't unstable.
[/quote]
How fast Roq was promoted really has little to do with the matter. Roq will quickly move up any alliance he's in, umbrella [formerly] included. Relative instability is arguable, a loose cannon is a loose cannon. I wouldn't say Roq soured the relations between Umbrella and Sparta. Roq soured relations between Roq and Umbrella. After Sparta threatened to downgrade/cancel Umb, I suspect Umbrella realized Sparta was out of their control and wanted any excuse to give them the satisfaction of the cancellation. Roq was by association, the fastest and easiest answer to all the problems MK had been whispering in their ear about. Goons are lucky they still drink the kool-aid, or else they could find a reason, as outrageous as Rey, a source of contention.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342559833' post='3011272']
After Sparta threatened to downgrade/cancel Umb, I suspect Umbrella realized Sparta was out of their control and wanted any excuse to give them the satisfaction of the cancellation. Roq was by association, the fastest and easiest answer to all the problems MK had been whispering in their ear about. Goons are lucky they still drink the kool-aid, or else they could find a reason, as outrageous as Rey, a source of contention.
[/quote]
Are these things you actually believe? And by the way I don't rail against Umbrella every opportunity I get so there's kind of that.

[bkphysics]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342559833' post='3011272']
... I wouldn't say Roq soured the relations between Umbrella and Sparta. Roq soured relations between Roq and Umbrella. ...
[/quote]

In this day and age, alliances can be so petty that one member can make them pout and take away their toys to the other playground. Not to say that was the case, but it does breed suspicion and remains within the realms of being a possibility.