Declaration of Intent

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

smurth, I may not agree with everything you will say but you should definitely post more. English, when used properly, is a pleasant language.

[smurthwaite]

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340814517' post='2998417']
Okay,I honestly have no idea what you are talking about now. Could you please enlighten me with your superior literacy?
[/quote]

[quote] LSF is not an ex-foe of IRON. [/quote]

Literacy 101: Inference. Most nations begin emphasizing this skill for students at about age 10, as that is when studies show the brain has the capacity to use it.

Smurf never claimed that LSF was an ex-foe of IRON. Your inference skills have failed you.

Modification: I forgot to enlighten you about the egregious logical fallacy. Argument Ad Hominem. That is Latin, "to the man," sometimes translated as "attacking the man." Here you have committed a fallacy by misusing the adjective dumb (I believe you mean stupid and not mute), in a rather lame attempt to belittle Smurf, rather than to point out his error(s) in his logic, assuming of course there are actually errors and you aren't disagreeing for no purpose other than to disagree. Rookie mistake. I'll forgive you, this time.

Edited June 27, 2012 by smurthwaite

[Valtamdraugr]

Fair is fair. This looks good.

Congrats, guys.

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='smurthwaite' timestamp='1340815701' post='2998433']
Literacy 101: Inference. Most nations begin emphasizing this skill for students at about age 10, as that is when studies show the brain has the capacity to use it.

Smurf never claimed that LSF was an ex-foe of IRON. Your inference skills have failed you.[/quote]
I never claimed that Smurf [b]said[/b] LSF was an ex-foe of IRON, but it sounded like Smurf did indeed think so, because I couldn't think of any other reason for him saying what he said. There is no deduction involved here, atleast not in the rigorous sense.


[quote]Modification: I forgot to enlighten you about the egregious logical fallacy. Argument Ad Hominem. That is Latin, "to the man," sometimes translated as "attacking the man." Here you have committed a fallacy by misusing the adjective dumb (I believe you mean stupid and not mute), in a rather lame attempt to belittle Smurf, rather than to point out his error(s) in his logic, [b]assuming of course there are actually errors and you aren't disagreeing for no purpose other than to disagree[/b]. Rookie mistake. I'll forgive you, this time.
[/quote]

I am no expert in philosophy, but I do believe that bolded part is called a false dilemma. Yes, what Smurf wrote has errors. No, I am not going to explain it to you with a flowchart, and yes, I called him dumb with no intention of actually taking the pains to prove it based on some axiomatic system with mathematical rigour.

BTW is there a name for the fallacy of mistaking a statement for a deduction?

EDIT: changed quote tags to bold

Edited June 27, 2012 by Ostrogothi

[jraenar]

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340818372' post='2998469']
I never claimed that Smurf [b]said[/b] LSF was an ex-foe of IRON, but it sounded like Smurf did indeed think so, because I couldn't think of any other reason for him saying what he said. There is no deduction involved here, atleast not in the rigorous sense.
[/quote]
Might want to go read what he posted again. He said opportunity to roll ex-foe [i]due to VE/NPO[/i]. Which kind of negates your whole point of him referring to LSF, since that sideshow started long before VE/NPO was yet a possibility.

Also, IRON you are terrible for demanding such harsh reps for what was a harmle… wait. No reps? Carry on.

o/ IRON

[Unknown Smurf]

English is not my first language so I apologize of you didn't actually understand but I think you are being intentionally obtuse here:

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340807511' post='2998351']
LSF is not an ex-foe of IRON.
[/quote]

I obviously meant VE.. Irons peace with Lsf allows them to hit VE due to their MDoAP with NPO ( if they ask for help).. Moreso I think that IRON peaced out incase some of VEs allies pull a bipolar and switch sides for a chance to beat down NPO now... If they chose to do that they could bring C&G against IRON due to the Lsf/int treaty in order to cripple NPOs potential power base.

Edit: but IRON peacing out LSF stops this from happening, and gets them PR points in the process. Anyone who actually thinks they are doing this to be nice is retarded.
[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1340813030' post='2998400']
The VE-NPO war? You might want to check your facts about what current wars are ongoing and the fact this all started before VE hit NPO. Also, you clearly haven't read everything or you would have your conspiracy thoughts in place properly. There was far more at play than what you've stated, but hey!
[/quote]

..? Yes because wars are not almost fully planned out before they happen.


@auctor - Yes I understand you think i am stupid for saying this because IRON is an allys ally but the notion of people not calling others out for doing stupid !@#$ just because they are a friend is stupid.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[smurthwaite]

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340818372' post='2998469']
I never claimed that Smurf [b]said[/b] LSF was an ex-foe of IRON, but it sounded like Smurf did indeed think so, because I couldn't think of any other reason for him saying what he said. There is no deduction involved here, atleast not in the rigorous sense.
[/quote]
You inability to see what he was actually saying, doesn't alleviate you of the responsibility you took in posting your Ad Hominem. In fact, I think your argument is more based in a general ignorance of the history of planet Bob, rather than an intentional logical error.


[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340818372' post='2998469']
I am no expert in philosophy, but I do believe that bolded part is called a false dilemma. Yes, what Smurf wrote has errors. No, I am not going to explain it to you with a flowchart, and yes, I called him dumb with no intention of actually taking the pains to prove it based on some axiomatic system with mathematical rigour.
[/quote]
I never claimed what Smurf wrote was correct or incorrect, so your assumption that I need an explanation falls into the same category; however, you are mixing things up. I'll point you in the right direction(s). First, it isn't a false dilemma, as it is merely a speculation on one possible motive, rather than an emphatic claim. Had it been a claim as such, it would have been an example of either/or reasoning, which is sometimes called a false dilemma.

As for your use of the word dumb, I simply pointed out that it was the wrong word for the intent you have indicated as it's use.

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340818372' post='2998469']
BTW is there a name for the fallacy of mistaking a statement for a deduction?

EDIT: changed quote tags to bold
[/quote]

[occ] Honestly, I am unsure. I would have to go back to my college logic texts and look. I would guess that there is, but as I am posting during down time in summer school, I don't have time to double check at the moment. I will do so this evening though, as you have piqued my interest. [occ]

[Unknown Smurf]

This conversation is beyond my ability. I think I have clearly stated what I meant, if unclear please PM me.

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340819334' post='2998479']
English is not my first language so I apologize of you didn't actually understand but I think you are being intentionally obtuse here:

I obviously meant VE.. Irons peace with Lsf allows them to hit VE due to their MDoAP with NPO ( if they ask for help).. Moreso I think that IRON peaced out incase some of VEs allies pull a bipolar and switch sides for a chance to beat down NPO now... If they chose to do that they could bring C&G against IRON due to the Lsf/int treaty in order to cripple NPOs potential power base.[/quote]

I am not being intentionally obtuse. I did not think you were referring to VE for an obvious reason: check out when this thread was posted and when VE's DoW was posted. Furthermore it is downright silly to think IRON would peace out with LSF because of there is a remote chance the VE 's allies pull a BiPolar, given that there is absolutely no reason to suspect it.

[quote]Edit: but IRON peacing out LSF stops this from happening, and gets them PR points in the process. Anyone who actually thinks they are doing this to be nice is retarded.
[/quote]

Uhh, yes it is retarded to think IRON is doing something nice. It is far more reasonable to think IRON is preparing for the near future when the alliances that have maintained a cordial relationship with NPO for quite some time suddenly want them dead and switch sides, throwing many of their allies under the bus.

[bay102174]

Now that you have this figured out I'll reveal the rest of the Master plan. We are in league with LSF. This has all been part of a master plan all along. IRON and LSF have a secret treaty that will be revealed soon. IRON will drop all wars and attack the NPO and VE with LSF and GPA. NpO will be used as back up for this operation. IRON and NpO made up if you didn't get get the memo. IRON and LSF has played you all. I only tell you now because its to late to do or change anything.

This will set IRON up for world domination. This is the master plan and I have spoken.

[Steve Buscemi]

You're a class act IRON.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340820818' post='2998490']
I am not being intentionally obtuse. I did not think you were referring to VE for an obvious reason: check out when this thread was posted and when VE's DoW was posted. Furthermore it is downright silly to think IRON would peace out with LSF because of there is a remote chance the VE 's allies pull a BiPolar, given that there is absolutely no reason to suspect it.



Uhh, yes it is retarded to think IRON is doing something nice. It is far more reasonable to think IRON is preparing for the near future when the alliances that have maintained a cordial relationship with NPO for quite some time suddenly want them dead and switch sides, throwing many of their allies under the bus.
[/quote]

Look at the current war. SF was deemed a potential threat a while ago and everything was done to provoke them.. Then they finally attacked them for basically no reason other than being deemed a potential theat.

If NPO is deemed a potential threat and this action would result in a victory (DH would be stupid to not analyze this) I sincerely believe a few allies would be thrown under the bus/take damage in order to neutralize this threat.

I don't know what the results of the MDP web analysis is as I am too lazy to check it .. but if not today, NPO will either be rolled at a later date or, as MK has shown they like to do, used to roll a previous ally that NPO dislikes (ex. VE) as long as it results in more security for MK and it's direct allies.

Edit: tl;dr don't be naive if it gives them more security they will do it.. If they don't do it, it will be for tactical reasons .. Not some moral reason "oh I don't want to put my ally in a tough spot"

Edited June 27, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='smurthwaite' timestamp='1340820054' post='2998484']
You inability to see what he was actually saying, doesn't alleviate you of the responsibility you took in posting your Ad Hominem. In fact, I think your argument is more based in a general ignorance of the history of planet Bob, rather than an intentional logical error.
[/quote]

It is...how do I put it...[i]cute[/i] that you think I carry some great burden of proof every time I call somebody on the internet dumb. As I said before, Yes I think what he posted was dumb. Yes, I know that if a person says something dumb, it doesn't mean he [i]is[/i] dumb. No, I am not going to give you a step-by-step analysis of why what he said is dumb. And I ceratinly don't give two hoots about the difference between "dumb" and stupid".
Also, trust me I know quite a bit about the history of Bob. So instead of profound speculations about why my argument(sic) is fallacious ( never mind the fact that you are [i]assuming[/i] that my argument is fallacious and then trying to find a reason why), if you have something to add to the actual [i]content[/i] of Smurf's post, let's hear it. Otherwise, nobody here is interested in listening to somebody's whining because they chose to read a post on the OWF like a legal document. Jesus Christ.


[quote]I never claimed what Smurf wrote was correct or incorrect[/quote]

So you do have nothing to add to/ back up Smurf's post. Glad we got that out of he way.

[quote]I'll point you in the right direction(s). First, it isn't a false dilemma, as it is merely a speculation on one possible motive, rather than an emphatic claim. Had it been a claim as such, it would have been an example of either/or reasoning, which is sometimes called a false dilemma.[/quote]

Then I take it you can differentiate between an assertion, an inference, a speculation and a casual remark. Why are we having this conversation again?

[quote]As for your use of the word dumb, I simply pointed out that it was the wrong word for the intent you have indicated as it's use.
[/quote]

See above.

[quote][occ] Honestly, I am unsure. I would have to go back to my college logic texts and look. I would guess that there is, but as I am posting during down time in summer school, I don't have time to double check at the moment. I will do so this evening though, as you have piqued my interest. [occ]
[/quote]

Good so you can now give an [i]official latin name[/i] to the fallacy that you have committed. Sometimes that helps with internet Aristotles.

It just strike me that instead of all the insane posts on the OWF, you chose to target my post with your deduction machine, and I chose to humour you. Then I realized what that made me. So now I bid you Good Day(if you are indeed in the western hemisphere).

[smurthwaite]

^^^^^^^Lulzy fun.

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340821866' post='2998509']
Look at the current war. SF was deemed a potential threat a while ago and everything was done to provoke them.. Then they finally attacked them for basically no reason other than being deemed a potential theat.

If NPO is deemed a potential threat and this action would result in a victory (DH would be stupid to not analyze this) I sincerely believe a few allies would be thrown under the bus/take damage in order to neutralize this threat.

I don't know what the results of the MDP web analysis is as I am too lazy to check it .. but if not today, NPO will either be rolled at a later date or, as MK has shown they like to do, used to roll a previous ally that NPO dislikes (ex. VE) as long as it results in more security for MK and it's direct allies.

Edit: tl;dr don't be naive if it gives them more security they will do it.. If they don't do it, it will be for tactical reasons .. Not some moral reason "oh I don't want to put my ally in a tough spot"
[/quote]

But your last sentence answers the rest of the post. It makes no tactical sense for MK to destroy NPO, because due to NPO's relations with NG and TLR (and TPF's ties to CnG), they will either stay on the same side as MK in any potential conflict or at the very least remain neutral. There is absolutely no reason to think NPO is a potential threat to MK. Why would IRON go peace out with LSF to prepare fpr this scenario when there is no reason to even consider the possibility of it arising?

Regardless, this thread was posted before VE's DoW, which puts a massive hole in your argument.

[quote]This conversation is beyond my ability. I think I have clearly stated what I meant, if unclear please PM me.[/quote]

That little side conversation between me and smurthwaite was worthless in every sense of the word. So don't worry.

EDIT: Regarding the supposed bad blood between IRON and VE: I was an IRON member for a very long time, and the last time I remember VE being brough up in our forums, everyone was cheering them to destroy NpO.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Ostrogothi

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340803835' post='2998319']
Hahaha classy? Whoever thinks that is retarded. IRON sees an opportunity to roll an ex-foe due to the VE/NPO war and is taking it/getting ready for the backlash.

There is absolutely nothing classy about this. Iron got pissed at lsf for apologizing and offering to pay reps for a joke that was not even half as bad as what MK members do on a daily basis. IRON then rolled the entire alliance for that joke made by one member because they didn't pay the reps within 24 hours ...probably because they were already at war with an alliance 10 times their size.

Pfft. Classy... smh. The only thing IRON did right was acknowledge they $%&@ed up all of Nordreichs staggers.
[/quote]

If only I had your brain then life surely would be made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPuccvF_p3o

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='jraenar' timestamp='1340819240' post='2998478']
Might want to go read what he posted again. He said opportunity to roll ex-foe [i]due to VE/NPO[/i]. Which kind of negates your whole point of him referring to LSF, since that sideshow started long before VE/NPO was yet a possibility.
[/quote]

Actually I missed that part. Then again, I wouldn't have dreamed in a hundred years that he was referring to VE.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340824351' post='2998553']
But your last sentence answers the rest of the post. It makes no tactical sense for MK to destroy NPO, because due to NPO's relations with NG and TLR (and TPF's ties to CnG), they will either stay on the same side as MK in any potential conflict or at the very least remain neutral. There is absolutely no reason to think NPO is a potential threat to MK. Why would IRON go peace out with LSF to prepare fpr this scenario when there is no reason to even consider the possibility of it arising?

Regardless, this thread was posted before VE's DoW, which puts a massive hole in your argument.[/quote]

A person (pessimist, conspirist, ???) like myself would say that that due to the history of NPO and MK/DH, the latter could see the mutual treaties as a power grab by the former.

As for this being posted before the VE DoW... C'mon. IRON probably knew NPO was going to go in due to TLR and NG getting hit at this point. More likely it was discussed before NG got hit.

[quote]EDIT: Regarding the supposed bad blood between IRON and VE: I was an IRON member for a very long time, and the last time I remember VE being brough up in our forums, everyone was cheering them to destroy NpO.
[/quote]

Just because NpO was the bigger enemy at the time doesn't mean IRON govt forgot one of the main proponents of Karma, especially considering Impero was the one who said that those in the coalition of cowards would be attacked ... Even if the membership has forgotten, I'm sure IRONs leadership has not.

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340826635' post='2998582']
A person (pessimist, conspirist, ???) like myself would say that that due to the history of NPO and MK/DH, the latter could see the mutual treaties as a power grab by the former.

As for this being posted before the VE DoW... C'mon. IRON probably knew NPO was going to go in due to TLR and NG getting hit at this point. More likely it was discussed before NG got hit.

[/quote]

If they did know, why would they attack Sparta? IRON has far more wars with Sparta now than with LSF. And clearly IRON could've comfortably handled both LSF and VE at the same time. Also, if they did peace out with LSF just to free up some 40 odd war slots, they could have instead just called in one of their many allies who are not even involved in the conflict yet. In short, VE's DoW on NPO shouldn't be a great concern for IRON, and in the unlikely scenario that it is, peacing out with LSF wouldn't have substantially changed the situation.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340827549' post='2998596']
If they did know, why would they attack Sparta? IRON has far more wars with Sparta now than with LSF. And clearly IRON could've comfortably handled both LSF and VE at the same time. Also, if they did peace out with LSF just to free up some 40 odd war slots, they could have instead just called in one of their many allies who are not even involved in the conflict yet. In short, VE's DoW on NPO shouldn't be a great concern for IRON, and in the unlikely scenario that it is, peacing out with LSF wouldn't have substantially changed the situation.
[/quote]

For the int tie I mentioned above. C&G could be activated against iron via the Lsf declaration if it was decided that NPO had to go.. I don't think that would happen at this point though. All I'm saying is that this was the reason for IRON giving peace to LSF, not IRON being altruistic.

I don't think it has to do with actual war slots but more so with how the treaty web lies. Peace with Lsf ensures TLR can't use C&G to superceed it's MDoAP with NPO (to give one example of treaty web manipulation.. I'm sure there is another more important relationship I'm overlooking).

Edit: NPO, not TLR

Edited June 27, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[USMC123]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340771280' post='2997907']
It isn't irony, it's a coincidence. It just so happened that you two met each other and fell in love on the day that was Ariana's birthday. Irony is only when the opposite of what you expect to happen, happens.
[/quote]

I think this thread is full of IRONy.

[quote name='Ostrogothi' timestamp='1340814517' post='2998417']
Okay,I honestly have no idea what you are talking about now. Could you please enlighten me with your superior literacy?
[/quote]

I don't always applaud Superfriends posts, but when I do, it's because they inspire self-owns such as this.

[smurthwaite]

[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1340833322' post='2998713']
I think this thread is full of IRONy.



I don't always applaud Superfriends posts, but when I do, it's because they inspire self-owns such as this.
[/quote]

/me tips hat to USMC123.

[Dan123123]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340819334' post='2998479']




@auctor - Yes I understand you think i am stupid for saying this because IRON is an allys ally but the notion of people not calling others out for doing stupid !@#$ just because they are a friend is stupid.
[/quote]


I am quite positive IRON's attack on LSF was a direct result of the fact LSF members impersonated IRON government on IRC in an attempt to instigate our ally, GLOF, to partake in some wider conflict. I really do not understand how you reckon IRON has done anything stupid here...

Edited June 27, 2012 by Dan123123

[jutopia la]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340819334' post='2998479']
@auctor - Yes I understand you think i am stupid for saying this because IRON is an allys ally but the notion of people not calling others out for doing stupid !@#$ just because they are a friend is stupid.
[/quote]

IRON had just cause to act as they did, and they handled the situation respectfully. Their actions were not stupid or malicious, and there is no need or reason to criticize them here.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1340828566' post='2998604']
For the int tie I mentioned above. C&G could be activated against iron via the Lsf declaration if it was decided that NPO had to go.. I don't think that would happen at this point though. All I'm saying is that this was the reason for IRON giving peace to LSF, not IRON being altruistic.

I don't think it has to do with actual war slots but more so with how the treaty web lies. Peace with Lsf ensures TLR can't use C&G to superceed it's MDoAP with NPO (to give one example of treaty web manipulation.. I'm sure there is another more important relationship I'm overlooking).

Edit: NPO, not TLR
[/quote]

LSF opened negotiations for peace prior to GOD actually hitting NG. We confirmed at the very outset of those talks that this would not be a prolonged affair and that it was unlikely we would seek more than two rounds of war. CnG is fully engaged, hitting IRON now would result in them loosing the war, CnG hitting IRON has not been a realistic possibility since IRON and ODN hit Sparta (again prior to GOD's DOW) together and thus the situation you describe above is absurd. If you are in any doubt about this then I am sure Yev over at LSF will confirm that the above is accurate.

I don't know why you have such a hard time believing that we view two rounds of war as a proportional response, when Ramlins kept us at war unnecessarily a large number of folks here commented that they would have in our position taken reparations from Ramlins, we didn't take them, in fact we agreed to white peace. When we fought Polar we didn't have any interest in reps, they are in our view counter productive. When we go to war we go to win, once the war is won and the objective is achieved, then there is no point in prolonging hostilities by subjugating an alliance with unnecessary demands.

We have achieved everything we aimed to in the conflict with LSF, dragging it on any longer than was required to prove our point would again be counter productive and unnecessary. The fact is during my tenure as IRON's President, IRON has always brought conflicts to a close in a measured way.