Why I joined Polaris

[Walford]

Several people have asked me why I joined the New Polar Order over a year ago. This is especially surprising to some given my past history of being involved in three global wars on the opposite sides. So I have decided to offer an official explanation for what it's worth.

At one point, I found myself declared EZI, which is an OOC designation of a person not being permitted to play the game and for anyone caught associating with that person being subject to attack. Why this was so can be reviewed here:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=24024

So I went into hiding, creating and deleting several nations under different names [all one at a time of course]. For the record, I never infiltrated or spied. All of my alias nations were in NONE, LoFN or Vox Populi. They all knew I was there if they didn't know which nation was mine.

Eventually, I decided to create a new one as walford and operate openly. Then I applied to GATO and was accepted.

Some time later, GATO found itself at war and a member of an alliance that was not formally at war with us was offering all of its 50 tech to a nation that was currently at war with a GATO nation. So w/o being asked, I spied away 5 tech so the offer could not be accepted. As the game points out, “technology increases damages caused in ground battles, cruise missile attacks, nuclear missile attacks, navy attacking and defending naval attacks, and aircraft bombing attacks.”

I then reported this to GATO leadership. As a student of International Politics, I know very well that offering aid to a nation at war violates neutrality and is itself an act of war. No declaration is necessary when intercepting war materiel going to an enemy combatant.

Nonetheless, I was brought before GATO’s High Court, convicted and ordered to pay a fine. Instead, I quit.

So then I joined WarriorConcept’s Celestial Being, which was created as a haven for non-aligned nations, hoping that it would not be political. Unfortunately, it was indirectly tied to Viridian Entente. Why this is a problem for me can be found here:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=16414

I asked if we were going to be obligated to fight alongside them and was assured that this would not be likely. Eventually, Celestial Being was ordered to fight alongside VE against New Polar Order. Rather than do that, I approached Electron Sponge in NpO’s IRC chat room asking if I could switch and fight. He directed me toward their current leadership and they allowed me to join. I enthusiastically fought VE. I have found Polaris to be competent, honorable and fair. The training is excellent and extensive. The tech trading program is very efficient and simple. I still have my long-range goals, which are well-known to friend and foe alike.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Walford

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1333310078' post='2946851']
I have found Polaris to be competent, honorable and fair. The training is excellent and extensive. The tech trading program is very efficient and simple. I still have my long-range goals, which are well-known to friend and foe alike.
[/quote]
That doesn't change the fact that they are also pretty terrible at reaching out to other alliances that aren't already rabbit-holed in their FA sphere.

But I will agree on the subject of the tech trading. They do put out reps quite well.

[Kyriakos Raanb Dorou]

Hey, it's Walford! Still living the code, I see.

It's good to see you again. Sounds like you've had a fairly interesting history since I last saw you... got to admit, I was also wondering about you when I saw your nation during the last war. Polar made itself a fine addition.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Richard VII

[Manis B]

Im glad Walfords still around, though I have no idea what his goals are other than "to perpetuate 2006 logic" or "disregard rules of war" or "quit an alliance when found guilty of a crime"

[Walford]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1333310389' post='2946854']That doesn't change the fact that they are also pretty terrible at reaching out to other alliances that aren't already rabbit-holed in their FA sphere.

But I will agree on the subject of the tech trading. They do put out reps quite well. [/quote]I do not speak on behalf of New Polar Order, but it is dishonorable for you as a party to the terms to sully the fact that we are adhering to them as agreed by the leadership of both of our respective alliances.

[quote name='Richard VII' timestamp='1333310842' post='2946859']Hey, it's Walford! Still living the code, I see.

It's good to see you again. Sounds like you've had a fairly interesting history since I last saw you... got to admit, I was also wondering about you when I saw your nation during the last war. Polar made itself a fine addition. [/quote]Thank you, that is very kind.

[quote name='Manis B' timestamp='1333311932' post='2946867']
Im glad Walfords still around, though I have no idea what his goals are other than "to perpetuate 2006 logic" or "disregard rules of war" or "quit an alliance when found guilty of a crime"[/quote]1. "to perpetuate 2006 logic" - To what are you referring exactly? We have lost over half of our nations on Planet Bob as I had warned would be the case if Might Makes Right replaces diplomacy and rhetoric. The Planet is a smoking ruin of what it once was. I warned that having the state of new nations and the non-aligned be deluged with recruitment messages mixed with battle reports would make us lose an entire class of players. Consequently it is much more difficult to get and keep trades.

Indeed it is my goal to contribute to changing that for the better.

2. "disregard rules of war" - I may have unwittingly gone against the policies of my alliance with respect to intercepting contraband tech being offered to a nation attacking an ally, but I most certainly had not gone against the rules of war. As I said, offering materiel to a nation engaged in combat is understood by any student of statecraft to be an act of war.

3. "quit an alliance when found guilty of a crime" - You are free to interpret it that way. My take on it is that I quit an alliance that has self-destructive policies such as the one that was punishing me for doing what is justified by internationally recognized rules in time of war.

[Groucho Marx]

Disregard D34th, acquire Walford.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1333313417' post='2946888']
I do not speak on behalf of New Polar Order, but it is dishonorable for you as a party to the terms to sully the fact that we are adhering to them as agreed by the leadership of both of our respective alliances.
[/quote]
I never said you weren't. In fact, I was entirely truthful in what I said. Perhaps it is a skill gained with experience?

[magicninja]

Ah Wally. Rules are rules. What you did was probably the right thing to do but we have a chain of command for a reason. I dont know any alliance where vigilantism flies.

[Omniscient1]

Walford, what's up? How you been?

Has there been a topic like this before, or am I just having extreme deja vu?

Edited April 1, 2012 by Omniscient1

[Prodigal Moon]

I remember trying to explain to WC that having Celestial Being protected by an alliance like VE was a hilarious contradiction of values. It didn't work.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Prodigal Moon

[jerdge]

Hello Walford.

I know how it is to join an alliance "almost by chance" and to then discover that it's a very nice place to belong to. I am glad that the same happened to you.

I guess that the GATO you visited last was very different from the GATO of your "ancient" times.

[Walford]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1333319491' post='2946947']Ah Wally. Rules are rules. What you did was probably the right thing to do but we have a chain of command for a reason. I dont know any alliance where vigilantism flies.[/quote]
"Vigilantism" would be applicable if it were not a time of war.

I could just have easily kept to myself the fact that I spied away tech that was being offered to an enemy engaged with a GATO before it could have been accepted and used against an ally. Instead, I informed leadership of what I had done and was shocked to find myself on trial for it. What I know of normal statecraft during time of war left me unprepared for such a reaction. GATO has repeatedly shown itself to be too bureaucratized to be flexible enough to respond to threats and challenging situations promptly and effectively.

Prior to GW2, GATO and allied military leaders had created an inter-alliance coordination center. Operations were soon made impossible when GATO politicians and diplomats led their allied counterparts in imposing their power plays and dithering on what were purely tactical preparations, bringing them to a screeching halt. When the war started, we faced a well-coordinated and organized group of alliances while ours were isolated on our own forums doing nothing for each other and very little for ourselves.

Prior to GW3 -- and on other occasions -- potential adversaries waited in exasperation while the entire GATO General Assembly deliberated with no cut-off date on how to respond to what amounted to an ultimatum. This made it easy for them to make the case that Planet Bob cannot accommodate democracy and that it cannot function to affect its own defense.

And yet mythology has me primarily to blame for losses that were catastrophic to the entirety of Planet Bob -- including to the victors. In the immediate aftermath, thousands of nations -- including several major alliances -- simply vanished.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1333319611' post='2946952']Walford, what's up? How you been?

Has there been a topic like this before, or am I just having extreme deja vu?[/quote]
Well, I created a thread about what NONE was about...
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=7829

And also as to what ended up leading to the extermination of the League of Free Nations.
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=16414

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1333319962' post='2946959']I remember trying to explain to WC that having Celestial Being protected by an alliance like VE was a hilarious contradiction of values. It didn't work.[/quote]
Yes, I explained in the above-linked NONE thread that being in an alliance under the paradigm that developed in the aftermath of GW3 is nearly as dangerous as not being in one. At least as a non-aligned, you only get beat up for what YOU did. I just got out of a war that was declared because of what people allegedly did long before most of the membership likely even existed on Planet Bob.

There isn't any way to avoid such things as they are now.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1333320248' post='2946964']Hello Walford.

I know how it is to join an alliance "almost by chance" and to then discover that it's a very nice place to belong to. I am glad that the same happened to you.

I guess that the GATO you visited last was very different from the GATO of your "ancient" times.[/quote]
No, not really. I had forgotten some dangerous weaknesses as explained above. Or maybe I hoped that lessons of being defeated and cut to less than half of what it once was would have made the Organization more streamlined and agile. Alas, no.

Perhaps there will be a place for a large, slow-moving, procedure-laden bureaucracy to exist in some manner on Planet Bob, but if that does come to pass, it is more than doubtful that GATO will have done much to usher in a Renaissance of civilization on Planet Bob. I do look forward to a return of Grenval's walls of text. He was amongst a cadre of eloquent writers and substantial thinkers at GATO.

Tragically, however, that simply is not enough to defend civilization in a decidedly uncivilized world.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Walford

[Monster]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1333319962' post='2946959']
I remember trying to explain to WC that having Celestial Being protected by an alliance like VE was a hilarious contradiction of values. It didn't work.
[/quote]

Um, it never does. Most major people have several treaties that are contradictions in values. They just don't care.

[D34th]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1333310389' post='2946854']
That doesn't change the fact that they are also pretty terrible at reaching out to other alliances that aren't already rabbit-holed in their FA sphere.
[/quote]

See you taking about how people/alliances are terrible is extremely amusing to see.

[magicninja]

We are far better off today on response time than the incarnations you mention. All you needed to do was tell the MoD and request the op. Instead you went over everyone's head which you very well know is not how things are done.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1333323612' post='2946995']
See you taking about how people/alliances are terrible is extremely amusing to see.
[/quote]
I'll just shrug off the attempt at a personal insult and point out that you championed my cause before the RoK-NpO relationship broke apart- which is gleefully ironic considering you always criticize others for changing their opinions depending on political circumstances. I may be terrible, but at least I'm consistent.

[D34th]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1333324079' post='2947001']
I'll just shrug off the attempt at a personal insult and point out that you championed my cause before the RoK-NpO relationship broke apart- which is gleefully ironic considering you always criticize others for changing their opinions depending on political circumstances. I may be terrible, but at least I'm consistent.
[/quote]

That doesn't change the fact that see someone who is demonstrably terrible managing an alliance criticizing some alliance for being terrible is a extremely amusing thing to see. It's like me criticizing someone who speaks a bad english.

[Monster]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1333324079' post='2947001']
I'll just shrug off the attempt at a personal insult and point out that you championed my cause before the RoK-NpO relationship broke apart- which is gleefully ironic considering you always criticize others for changing their opinions depending on political circumstances. I may be terrible, but at least I'm consistent.
[/quote]

The thing is, Polaris knows it does itself no favors at certain points and the consequences are something they accept. I guess that's why it's somewhat unique for a major alliance. They don't pretend to like anyone or walk on as many egg shells as possible.

[Walford]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1333323728' post='2946996']We are far better off today on response time than the incarnations you mention. All you needed to do was tell the MoD and request the op. Instead you went over everyone's head which you very well know is not how things are done.[/quote]
Implicit in your characterization is that I did so with deliberate knowledge and intent to thwart rules when in fact there an urgent need to stop materiel from being sent to an enemy attacking a GATO nation before it could be used against him. I was initially congratulated when I posted this fact in an internal IRC chat. If were technically against the rules, I would have been expected to have been cautioned about it, but not put on trial and punished for it -- particularly in a time of war.

The sending nation had violated neutrality when offering the tech and thus made itself subject to immediate action. I certainly understand being subject to trial and punishment if I had declared war on the sending nation, but simply intercepting contraband before it reached its destination has been widely accepted as permissible ever since war was invented.

In following the rules, likely the tech would have been accepted long before any decision had been taken by leadership. I left GATO rather than be part of an Organization that operates in this way. I'm sure you are happy that someone who does not value procedure over effectiveness as well.

You have had plenty of opportunity to get your side of the story out. Here is mine.

[Walford]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333324660' post='2947012']The thing is, Polaris knows it does itself no favors at certain points and the consequences are something they accept. I guess that's why it's somewhat unique for a major alliance. They don't pretend to like anyone or walk on as many egg shells as possible[/quote]
That's called integrity. I now officially LOVE the New Polar Order.

[Phineas]

Getting punished for not following protocol even though that person was right in his actions always cracks me up.

[i]Ecce homo tragicus.[/i]

Edited April 2, 2012 by Phineas

[Monster]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1333324818' post='2947015']
That's called integrity. I now officially LOVE the New Polar Order.
[/quote]

Well, it could have helped to be more apologetic on the Grub issue. Brehon and I covered the Polar thing pretty well on the radio.


[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1333325227' post='2947018']
Getting punished for not following protocol even though that person was right in his actions always cracks me up.

[i]Ecce homo tragicus.[/i]
[/quote]


You're a loose cannon and you're off the force.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Roquentin

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1333324587' post='2947011']
That doesn't change the fact that see someone who is demonstrably terrible managing an alliance criticizing some alliance for being terrible is a extremely amusing thing to see. It's like me criticizing someone who speaks a bad english.
[/quote]
I can take credit for the majority of the good things to have occurred to Ragnarok since I entered high gov there (including our entry into Mjolnir, our branching out to other portions of the treaty web including NSO, the recruitment of quality members like Wu and our period of strong growth following those applications, our handling of the NSO/Legion war, and our defeat of the SuperFriends this winter) so I'm really not seeing how "demonstrably terrible" I was during my time there. But the party line works too, I guess.

Roq, fair enough, but that has led them to being on the receiving end of a lot of what is not always necessary damage as well as political ire. Maybe I just see things in a different light than they do, but I know they had quite a few opportunities to avoid putting themselves in the negative positions that they later became a part of.

[Monster]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1333326148' post='2947031']

Roq, fair enough, but that has led them to being on the receiving end of a lot of what is not always necessary damage as well as political ire. Maybe I just see things in a different light than they do, but I know they had quite a few opportunities to avoid putting themselves in the negative positions that they later became a part of.
[/quote]

If they did have opportunities that didn't involve having to compromise their principles you're right.

The thing is, their spin cycle is done now and it's unlikely for there to be enough support to roll them a third time just because.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333326301' post='2947033']
If they did have opportunities that didn't involve having to compromise their principles you're right.

The thing is, their spin cycle is done now and it's unlikely for there to be enough support to roll them a third time just because.
[/quote]
I personally believe they have. At least from an outsiders perspective, doing things like signing with Legion and RIA didn't help.

And I'm inclined to agree. Personally I'm sick of Polar being on the receiving end of beatings, just because it's no longer original. Of course, whether or not they can actually position themselves in order to win the next war ([i]gasp![/i]) is still yet to be seen. People like Pacifica have done it, but with Polar's track record one can never be too sure.