Why I joined Polaris

[Laslo Kenez]

Rules are rules though, and I believe the punishment was really very minor if I remember rightly - but everyone signs up to the rules when they join the alliance regardless. He chose to quit instead of accepting that.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1333411148' post='2947508']
Rules are rules though, and I believe the punishment was really very minor if I remember rightly - but everyone signs up to the rules when they join the alliance regardless. He chose to quit instead of accepting that.
[/quote]

That's a matter of culture and norms actually. Alliances deal with these things differently. I suppose if your alliance is governed through an adversarial legal system that means you have to be extra-strict and stupid in applying rules lest you give the opposition a way to weaken your position.

In other sorts of alliances it would have been handled very differently, I assure you.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1333413271' post='2947532']
That's a matter of culture and norms actually. Alliances deal with these things differently. I suppose if your alliance is governed through an adversarial legal system that means you have to be extra-strict and stupid in applying rules lest you give the opposition a way to weaken your position.

In other sorts of alliances it would have been handled very differently, I assure you.
[/quote]

Well that's good for them, but when you join GATO, you do so knowing we have a charter-mandated judicial system and a set of laws that you agree to. You either accept that or you leave as you are unable to fulfill your oath, I don't see any sense in complaining about it. It's part of the application process.

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333362046' post='2947253']
Seriously. Walford. NpO is not the moralist gem you think they are. From my observations they sucker fools like you in with moralist rhetoric but almost always do the complete opposite of the value some Polaris members like to preach. If you want to know more PM me and I will indulge you.
[/quote]
Walford has been a member of Polaris for over a year, whereas I have no idea who you are. I am sure he has a much better idea of how we operate than you. Which is exactly how it should be. The best way to observe how an alliance operates is to join it. First hand knowledge trumps rumors and opinion every time, and certainly in a place where second and third hand information is accompanied with an agenda.

[Canik]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1333414098' post='2947540']
Walford has been a member of Polaris for over a year, whereas I have no idea who you are. I am sure he has a much better idea of how we operate than you. Which is exactly how it should be. The best way to observe how an alliance operates is to join it. First hand knowledge trumps rumors and opinion every time, and certainly in a place where second and third hand information is accompanied with an agenda.
[/quote]

Man, you'd think you'd ask about me before going out and assuming I'm some newb that knows absolutely nothing. I've been here since pre-Maroon War. You remember Skii, Steelertopia I believe was his nation? He was your top nation for a while, yeah, I introduced him to the game. You're welcome. (Also Crusaderoflight) All I'm offering is first-hand knowledge, brother. I was founder and former leader of FEAR. An alliance that fought alongside NpO in WotC, but has been ignored and treated poorly since then. Makes me miss ES.

FEAR was a member of TIFDTT, and of course you know of our grievance there. What you probably don't know is a short time before NpO's crusade on \m/ (for raiding), you were protecting GOONS from raids on FEAR (among others). Yet we tried to look past it and fight a losing war for your and our mutual benefit. Then you go and switch sides mid-war.

And that's just me! Just look at how much anger and discontent NpO has caused! I (and many others) were too small/insignificant to notice, nothing but bugs on NpO's windshield.. and now I'm torn.. because I want to say Walford should hate NpO, but then again, him being in NpO is so damn hypocritical and contradictory that it actually sort of fits. So whatever.

edit: Missed your post, Dajobo. And no thank you, as I explained to Tevron on our forums, I will judge you on future action, not cheap words. He handled my discontent very well you should give that man a medal. The slate is clean as far as I'm concerned, but to say NpO has been all moralist and honorable and crap up to this point is a joke. Perhaps the future NpO will be, but that [b]remains to be seen.[/b]

Edited April 3, 2012 by Canik

[D34th]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333422406' post='2947634']
Man, you'd think you'd ask about me before going out and assuming I'm some newb that knows absolutely nothing. I've been here since pre-Maroon War. You remember Skii, Steelertopia I believe was his nation? He was your top nation for a while, yeah, I introduced him to the game. You're welcome. (Also Crusaderoflight) All I'm offering is first-hand knowledge, brother. I was founder and former leader of FEAR. An alliance that fought alongside NpO in WotC, but has been ignored and treated poorly since then. Makes me miss ES.

FEAR was also a member of TIFDTT, and of course you know of our grievance there. What you probably don't know is a short time before NpO's crusade on \m/ (for raiding), you were protecting GOONS from raids on FEAR (among others). Yet we tried to look past it and fight a losing war for your and our mutual benefit. Then you go and switch sides mid-war.

And that's just me! Just look at how much anger and discontent NpO has caused! I (and many others) were too small/insignificant to notice, nothing but bugs on NpO's windshield.. and now I'm torn.. because I want to say Walford should hate NpO, but then again, him being in NpO is so damn hypocritical and contradictory that it actually sort of fits. So whatever.

edit: Missed your post, Dajobo. And no, as I explained to Tevron on our forums, I will judge you on future action, not cheap words. He handled my discontent very well you should give that man a medal. The slate is clean as far as I'm concerned, but to say NpO has been all moralist and honorable and crap up to this point is a joke. Perhaps the future NpO will be, but that [b]remains to be seen.[/b]
[/quote]

FEAR didn't fought alongside NpO in [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/WoTC"]noCB war(WoTC)[/url], FEAR fought in the other side, so I don't know why you expected anything beside disdain and poor treatment. You also complain about NpO defending it's protectorate and then complains about we honoring our treaty with MK and defending them even at a great political cost, so you need better examples of how Polaris do the complete opposite of the value some Polaris members like to preach because until now I saw nothing.

[Dajobo]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333422406' post='2947634']
edit: Missed your post, Dajobo. And no thank you, as I explained to Tevron on our forums, I will judge you on future action, not cheap words. He handled my discontent very well you should give that man a medal. The slate is clean as far as I'm concerned, but to say NpO has been all moralist and honorable and crap up to this point is a joke. Perhaps the future NpO will be, but that [b]remains to be seen.[/b]
[/quote]
Tevron is truly a rising star in my opinion.
I don't think anyone, in our out of NpO would suggest we have always done the right thing. I know I'd laugh at them if they did! What you have said here is all we ask.

Peace.

[Canik]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1333424191' post='2947652']
FEAR didn't fought alongside NpO in [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/WoTC"]noCB war(WoTC)[/url], FEAR fought in the other side, so I don't know why you expected anything beside disdain and poor treatment. You also complain about NpO defending it's protectorate and then complains about we honoring our treaty with MK and defending them even at a great political cost, so you need better examples of how Polaris do the complete opposite of the value some Polaris members like to preach because until now I saw nothing.
[/quote]

I meant TUW. http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Unjust_War
I've been in so many wars. Apologies.

Also, I think you misunderstood. GOONS was conducting raids on FEAR, and NpO was protecting GOONS from consequences.

Did \m/ raid MK? I believe you defended MK against TIFDTT, who entered on your side.

Dajobo edit:
[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1333425111' post='2947659']
I don't think anyone, in our out of NpO would suggest we have always done the right thing. I know I'd laugh at them if they did!
[/quote]

No, but Walford said "I have found Polaris to be competent, honorable and fair." which the whole thread was about why he joined Polaris. So naturally, I had to laugh. Polaris is competent, honorable and fair.. but not much more or less than any other major alliance. If anything it's been less.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Canik

[D34th]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333425553' post='2947665']
I meant TUW. http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Unjust_War
I've been in so many wars. Apologies.

Also, I think you misunderstood. GOONS was conducting raids on FEAR, and NpO was protecting GOONS from consequences.

Did \m/ raid MK? I believe you defended MK against TIFDTT, who entered on your side.
[/quote]

NpO was protecting GOONS? Really? I'm shocked, I don't believe NpO protected their protectorate, immoral!

TIFDTT entered in "our side" attacking our direct ally who wasn't involved and we had obligation to defend them, I know it's a controversial subject and I don't want to argue about that over again, but the fact as I said is: Polaris defended MK, NpO could choose to not honor the treaty as many did before, but Polaris choose to honor it at a enormous political cost and yet you are here complaining about NpO lack of integrity and yet you failed to give solid examples of Polaris misconduct.

Edited April 3, 2012 by D34th

[Feanor Noldorin]

I didn't know Walford was a member of Polar. Its good to see that our protectorate has such stalwart and legendary figure within their rank.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333328655' post='2947071']
MK hasn't changed at all.
[/quote]
I agree. It's amusing to see people say otherwise and I've found out that most of the people who say they "changed" over the course of their history use to support them until they finally took the blinders off and saw who they really were and couldn't accept it.

[Canik]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1333426528' post='2947669']
NpO was protecting GOONS? Really? I'm shocked, I don't believe NpO protected their protectorate, immoral!

TIFDTT entered in "our side" attacking our direct ally who wasn't involved and we had obligation to defend them, I know it's a controversial subject and I don't want to argue about that over again, but the fact as I said is: Polaris defended MK, NpO could choose to not honor the treaty as many did before, but Polaris choose to honor it at a enormous political cost and yet you are here complaining about NpO lack of integrity and yet you failed to give solid examples of Polaris misconduct.
[/quote]

Dude, I don't need to justify a CB on NpO or some crap, we already rolled you for it. Little late to be defending yourself isn't it?

D34th, protecting your protectorate in and of itself is no crime, true.. but protecting them while they commit borderline acts of war? What if they spied on us, full on attacked us, and you still protected them? See how it could be immoral then, fool. I swear D34th, back when you were in GPA I liked your posts a lot more. At least then your moralistic drivel had some merit to it. Now it's just a bunch of poorly rationalized mumbo-jumbo.

Also, protecting them, allowing them to raid people you don't care about with virtual impunity, while in turn attacking \m/ for raiding is a crime of hypocrisy in my book. All and all it sure seems NpO operated under 'might makes right' which we all know Walford hates. I was simply trying to make sure he was well informed. Sometimes you see the true colors of an alliance best when you are a stranger having to deal with them.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Canik

[D34th]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333428271' post='2947684']
Dude, I don't need to justify a CB on NpO or some crap, we already rolled you for it. Little late to be defending yourself isn't it?

D34th, protecting your protectorate in and of itself is no crime, true.. but protecting them while they commit borderline acts of war? What if they spied on us, full on attacked us, and you still protected them?[/quote]

They spied, full attacked you? I guess they didn't so I stand corrected.

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333428271' post='2947684']
See how it could be immoral then, fool. I swear D34th, back when you were in GPA I liked your posts a lot more. At least then your moralistic drivel had some merit to it. Now it's just a bunch of poorly rationalized mumbo-jumbo.[/quote]

My posts aren't intended to people like or dislike them, some like my posts while I'm criticizing their enemies but starts to dislike them in the second I start to criticize their alliance or allies, CN if full of double standards, so you're more than welcome to dislike my mumbo-jumbo.

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333428271' post='2947684']
Also, protecting them, allowing them to raid people you don't care about with virtual impunity, while in turn attacking \m/ for raiding is a crime of hypocrisy in my book. All and all it sure seems NpO operated under 'might makes right' which we all know Walford hates. I was simply trying to make sure he was well informed. Sometimes you see the true colors of an alliance best when you are a stranger having to deal with them.
[/quote]

As for protecting GOONS you mean helping the diplomacy prevails over a raid incident, I declare Polaris guilty since I don't remember the specifics of this raid and since no serious drama came out of it I presume you are doing a storm in a glass of water.

Of course Polaris operated under the "might makes right" in BLEU era and Polaris did many mistakes(like protect GOONS), but that doesn't mean NpO didn't stood for its principles and if your best example to prove me wrong is complaining about a raid that GOONS did and NpO war against \m/, I rest my case, have a good day.

[Canik]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1333429172' post='2947691']
They spied, full attacked you? I guess they didn't so I stand corrected.[/quote]

Eh?


[quote]My posts aren't intended to people like or dislike them, some like my posts while I'm criticizing their enemies but starts to dislike them in the second I start to criticize their alliance or allies, CN if full of double standards, so you're more than welcome to dislike my mumbo-jumbo.[/quote]

Yeah, it is funny how that works. Hey, in Karma War didn't you call out Karma with some kind of 'hypocrisy cola' sig?


[quote]As for protecting GOONS you mean helping the diplomacy prevails over a raid incident, I declare Polaris guilty since I don't remember the specifics of this raid and since no serious drama came out of it I presume you are doing a storm in a glass of water.

Of course Polaris operated under the "might makes right" in BLEU era and Polaris did many mistakes(like protect GOONS), but that doesn't mean NpO didn't stood for its principles and if your best example to prove me wrong is complaining about a raid that GOONS did and NpO war against \m/, I rest my case, have a good day.
[/quote]

There would have been war had NpO & MK not been protecting GOONS. Might made right on that day. No one cared if we were right or wrong, they favored GOONS and that's all that mattered. I'm okay with that, but I'm not okay with NpO acting like the beacon of moralism, so much better and brighter than the rest.

o/ MK
o/ GOONS

For keepin it real

Edited April 3, 2012 by Canik

[Dajobo]

I think some of your criticisms of our past are fair comment Canik but I don't see anywhere we claim to be better than anyone else.
NpO like any alliance has changed and evolved over the years and now more than ever we are aware of the importance of making decisions we are comfortable with for the future. You don't go through a few world wars under attack and out numbered without having a good hard look in the mirror you know.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Dajobo

[Walford]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1333410318' post='2947501'][quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333362046' post='2947253']Seriously. Walford. NpO is not the moralist gem you think they are. From my observations they sucker fools like you in with moralist rhetoric but almost always do the complete opposite of the value some Polaris members like to preach. If you want to know more PM me and I will indulge you.[/quote]Feel welcome to actually talk to us whenever you choose because based off this statement you really have no idea on who we are these days.[/quote]
I do; I'm actually in NpO and know that first-hand.

I gave the reasons I joined NpO in my original post. NpO offered no "moralist rhetoric" and "preached" nothing to me.

I have been around long enough to know that there is no group on Planet Bob that has clean hands -- indeed, NpO was at one time a part of The Initiative, the consequences of which I have written extensively when they were fresh. Polaris has turned out to be a very close match to my own values. It is a place where, after completing training and testing, one can be minimally involved or find plenty of things to do.

Anyone who knows me will appreciate how much of a match Polaris is based upon this assessment I quoted earlier:

"Polaris knows it does itself no favors at certain points and the consequences are something they accept. I guess that's why it's somewhat unique for a major alliance. They don't pretend to like anyone or walk on as many egg shells as possible." - Roquentin

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333325650' post='2947027']Well, it could have helped to be more apologetic on the Grub issue. Brehon and I covered the Polar thing pretty well on the radio.[/quote]
I'm unaware of the details, but am not big on apologies. Talk is cheap. Furthermore, the way things are in post-apocalyptic Planet Bob, grovelling for forgiveness would be taken as a sign of weakness. I believe in demonstrating any remorse or whatever by resolving not to make the same mistakes again and having integrity going forward. In how these past two wars were resolved in which I have fought for Polaris, leadership has demonstrated a fine grasp of Realpolitik, while at the same time not shrinking to fight when threatened -- and to know when and how to cease hostilities with keen appreciation for our members' well-being and honor.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1333348806' post='2947216']Ahoy Walford, long time. Glad you found a good place to call home. I would agree with you that Polaris is stand up. If I wasn't so happy in Valhalla these days I'd knock on their door myself. Something to be said for an alliance who acts on the principles rather than on whats most survivable.

I do miss your 06-07 anti tech rants though. BTW Mongo says hey![/quote]
Thank you but, as can be found in the NONE thread I linked to earlier, I never preached against tech-raiding. I created NONE and later the League of Free Nations to make it so individual nations and small alliances would have a means to mentor, aid and organize mutual defense. These organizations were exterminated because the looters were outraged that they could not easily assess whom it was safe to beat and rob. They issued an ultimatum that all potential victims should declare their ties openly or all independents would be punished collectively. Many chose instead to leave Planet Bob altogether never to return.

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1333413271' post='2947532'][quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1333411148' post='2947508']Rules are rules though, and I believe the punishment was really very minor if I remember rightly - but everyone signs up to the rules when they join the alliance regardless. He chose to quit instead of accepting that.[/quote]That's a matter of culture and norms actually. Alliances deal with these things differently. I suppose if your alliance is governed through an adversarial legal system that means you have to be extra-strict and stupid in applying rules lest you give the opposition a way to weaken your position.

In other sorts of alliances it would have been handled very differently, I assure you.[/quote]
Indeed, I had recently made a mistake during the recent war and attacked a non-aligned that was in my range and tech-raiding an apparently inactive Polar. I wasn't dragged before any Court or punished. There was no assumption made as to my motives. I was told that all targets outside of the declared war must be approved and ordered to withdraw. I didn't agree that this was a good idea [the aggressor went out of range before he could be neutralized] and argued my point, but I did what I was told and that was that.

I expected something similar from GATO. The rules of combat are different in time of war. As a military leader, you don't alienate people who are demonstrating that they are willing to sacrifice for you, by being officious rather than being practical and understanding. NpO understands this. GATO does not and this, IMO is one reason that GATO will be seen primarily as a debating society rather than an alliance that is respected politically and militarily.

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1333413426' post='2947534']Well that's good for them, but when you join GATO, you do so knowing we have a charter-mandated judicial system and a set of laws that you agree to. You either accept that or you leave as you are unable to fulfill your oath, I don't see any sense in complaining about it. It's part of the application process.[/quote]
I didn't create this thread to complain about GATO or to explain why I did not accept the rules. They could have been enforced differently. GATO's priorities are flawed as demonstrated in that instance and in the others as I explained earlier. I had hoped that my first alliance had learned from being decimated so badly by an enemy that it out-numbered, but in the end turned out to be more well-organized and result-oriented.[hr]I'd like to thank those of you who offered me kind words and thank all of you for being [mostly on-topic and] civil.

[Canik]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1333463188' post='2947829']
I do; I'm actually in NpO and know that first-hand.

I gave the reasons I joined NpO in my original post. NpO offered no "moralist rhetoric" and "preached" nothing to me.

I have been around long enough to know that there is no group on Planet Bob that has clean hands -- indeed, NpO was at one time a part of The Initiative, the consequences of which I have written extensively when they were fresh. Polaris has turned out to be a very close match to my own values. It is a place where, after completing training and testing, one can be minimally involved or find plenty of things to do.

Anyone who knows me will appreciate how much of a match Polaris is based upon this assessment I quoted earlier:

"Polaris knows it does itself no favors at certain points and the consequences are something they accept. I guess that's why it's somewhat unique for a major alliance. They don't pretend to like anyone or walk on as many egg shells as possible." - Roquentin
[/quote]

That makes so little sense. So your values are to have a good training program and for the alliance to be it's own and not a suck-up brown-nosing alliance? I'm sorry, I just thought your standards were much higher.

[Monster]

Honestly, what are the standards for your alliance? There are worse than that.

[Walford]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333472473' post='2947876']That makes so little sense. So your values are to have a good training program and for the alliance to be it's own and not a suck-up brown-nosing alliance? I'm sorry, I just thought your standards were much higher.[/quote]
If that's all you got out of what I said here, all I can say [as a polite Southerner] is bless your heart.

[Canik]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1333474425' post='2947891']
If that's all you got out of what I said here, all I can say [as a polite Southerner] is bless your heart.
[/quote]

Because you lack the ability to explain yourself?

[Walford]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333474731' post='2947894']Because you lack the ability to explain yourself?[/quote]
You go ahead and think that if it makes you feel better.

[Canik]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1333474916' post='2947897']
You go ahead and think that if it makes you feel better.
[/quote]

Never felt bad. Except for you. lol

[Canik]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1333473778' post='2947883']
Honestly, what are the standards for your alliance? There are worse than that.
[/quote]

Good training and efficiency.
It's own alliance not a follower.
Honors treaties & word.
No BS.

^ That is pretty much my standards. Which seems similar to Walford, but I'm Canik. Not Walford. More is expected of him.

I mean really a lot of alliances match those descriptions. Walford you have said nothing that makes NpO stand out, you've only made yourself look naive and out of touch. (Which is why I felt bad for you)

Edited April 3, 2012 by Canik

[D34th]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333475458' post='2947905']
Good training and efficiency.
It's own alliance not a follower.
Honors treaties & word.
No BS.

^ That is pretty much my standards. Which seems similar to Walford, but I'm Canik. Not Walford. More is expected of him.

I mean really a lot of alliances match those descriptions. Walford you have said nothing that makes NpO stand out, you've only made yourself look naive and out of touch. (Which is why I felt bad for you)
[/quote]

The only one here who is looking naive is you, plus you are embarrassing yourself, not that I dislike to see it, please continue.

[Canik]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1333491812' post='2947999']
The only one here who is looking naive is you, plus you are embarrassing yourself, not that I dislike to see it, please continue.
[/quote]

I know I do myself no favors at certain points but the consequences are something I accept. I guess that's why I'm somewhat unique for a ruler. I don't pretend to like anyone or walk on as many egg shells as possible.

[Freelancer]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1333348806' post='2947216']
Ahoy Walford, long time. Glad you found a good place to call home. I would agree with you that Polaris is stand up. If I wasn't so happy in Valhalla these days I'd knock on their door myself. Something to be said for an alliance who acts on the principles rather than on whats most survivable.

I do miss your 06-07 anti tech rants though. BTW Mongo says hey!

later,
MM
[/quote]


hahaha, I see a few of us old timers are feeling nostalgic ..