IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 You take two alliances connected via Europa and MK & Co. in general and attempt to use them as an unbiased sample of the rest of the international community. Well, with a counter like that I guess I have no ground to stand on now. I really would like to discuss the last few pages. Since you seem to not have brought evidence of said threats at all I'll assume you're just desperate. Here's what was said: Your actions will inevitably alienate yourselves and your behavior is deplorable. I asked questions and you couldn't answer them. You essentially agreed that you treat others who form their questions in the same literal sense simply because of their AA, and state that you believe the belittling, bigotry and thinly veiled hate-mongering alliance that you seem to want to be is a rational conclusion you've made to maximize your long-term interests. I've concluded that that's a farce and it's simply the last shred you're hanging on to with desperation. Perhaps in the future you should just address the person and we wouldn't have to spend several pages going over how the last few pages are a microcosm of how your alliance works and why it is destined to harm itself if it continues. Should I do what you have and lecture you about international politics when I know I don't have to or can we just agree that attempting to paint everyone you disagree with as a moralist is historically a bad idea. Especially in GOONS history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Moon Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1330807443' post='2932642'] As has been said a thousand times before, no one in goons cares about losses when it comes to defending ourselves.[/quote] I'll quote this the next time someone criticizes GOONS (e.g., for bringing in allies against rogues) and Sardonic asks why would wouldn't seek to use every advantage to minimize your losses and maximize your gains. Maybe you don't care about losses, but there seems to be a real disconnect between Sardonic's calculating, Art of War pragmatism and the reckless tough guy position that some other GOONS want to project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330809137' post='2932662'] You take two alliances connected via Europa and MK & Co. in general and attempt to use them as an unbiased sample of the rest of the international community. [/quote] Spoiler warning: those were examples of our indirect allies, you specifically said nobody but our direct allies care what we think. Though they are too examples of the international community, of course. [quote] I really would like to discuss the last few pages. Since you seem to not have brought evidence of said threats at all I'll assume you're just desperate. [/quote] You called us an endangered species, that random non-schatt CoJ guy very openly made a threat. Your attempts to deny reality are even more pathetic than your attempts to fabricate it. [quote] Here's what was said: Your actions will inevitably alienate yourselves and your behavior is deplorable. I asked questions and you couldn't answer them. [/quote] I can answer any questions, and I can assure you, we are not worried about alienating ourselves. You are not a barometer for the world's opinion. You don't even represent IRON's opinions. Whatever you might think about us, we are in no danger of isolation. [quote] You essentially agreed that you treat others who form their questions in the same literal sense simply because of their AA, and state that you believe the belittling, bigotry and thinly veiled hate-mongering alliance that you seem to want to be is a rational conclusion you've made to maximize your long-term interests. [/quote] I did not agree to any such thing. I will answer any fairly stated questions from interested parties regardless of their AA. And once again, we are not a bigoted, hate mongering alliance. We are rough on our pathetic detractors (i.e., people like you), but we are always fair in diplomacy and easy to work with. [quote] I've concluded that that's a farce and it's simply the last shred you're hanging on to with desperation. [/quote] Desperation? Is that how you would characterize my position? The only one desperate here is you, you have yet to raise a single valid point or moral argument. You are merely trapped in the typical GOONS detractor pattern of proudly declaring themselves prophets of our doom, whose words the angels will sing as we are banished to the dark place from whence we came. Newsflash: your views are not shared by as many as you think, and they will continue to be even less shared, unless you can learn to make valid, concise, and evidenced arguments. [quote] Perhaps in the future you should just address the person and we wouldn't have to spend several pages going over how the last few pages are a microcosm of how your alliance works and why it is destined to harm itself if it continues. [/quote] We're destined to hurt ourselves because we care what our direct and indirect allies think and don't give two flips what those on the other side, be they individuals or alliances think? [quote] Should I do what you have and lecture you about international politics when I know I don't have to or can we just agree that attempting to paint everyone you disagree with as a moralist is historically a bad idea. Especially in GOONS history. [/quote] To call you a moralist would be a compliment. Purestrain moralists, like Bob Janova for example, can state clearly their moral positions and arguments. You have yet to make any informed arguments. You want to stop yelling and have a debate? I invite you, make a debate, with facts, not "oh goons is the puppet of MK" and "goons is unloved by everyone but direct allies" garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 You backtracking on what you call threats and more personal insults/attempts to belittle the position I have presented while not actually answering any of the questions presented while continuing to ask for more does not make you a debater. You are an endangered species. If you think that's threatening I have a vault to sell you. It's a fact. Clearly, I should just follow in your footsteps and flip flop with what words you want to use to label your perceived detractors. I think I've gone from someone who apparently doesn't know what they're talking about, to a moralist, to a faux moralist, to a contrarian, back to a moralist, and now to not even worthy of being called a moralist or something. Can you see why everyone has a hard time taking your responses or attempts to defend your ridiculous behavior and actions with ridicule seriously? Let's call for a civil debate but I want to call anyone who disagrees with any part of what I'm saying a "pathetic detractor." Save it. You're destined to hurt yourselves not because you don't understand the ramifications of your actions, but because you don't care. And yes. For all the lather you've gathered in responding to someone you've vehemently attempted to put down in ways other than a clear response you do seem just a tad bit desperate. Effectively saying "No, you," isn't your best work here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330811186' post='2932679'] You backtracking on what you call threats and more personal insults/attempts to belittle the position I have presented while not actually answering any of the questions presented while continuing to ask for more does not make you a debater. [/quote] You have not asked me any debate questions, and I have backtracked from nothing, anybody with eyes can see that those posts clearly constituted threats and desires to see us removed. [quote] You are an endangered species. If you think that's threatening I have a vault to sell you. It's a fact. [/quote] A fact with absolutely no evidence to back it up other than some vague gut feeling you probably have is not a fact. [quote] Clearly, I should just follow in your footsteps and flip flop with what words you want to use to label your perceived detractors. I think I've gone from someone who apparently doesn't know what they're talking about, to a moralist, to a faux moralist, to a contrarian, back to a moralist, and now to not even worthy of being called a moralist or something. Can you see why everyone has a hard time taking your responses or attempts to defend your ridiculous behavior and actions with ridicule seriously? [/quote] You make the mistake of thinking anybody cares what I call you. [quote] Let's call for a civil debate but I want to call anyone who disagrees with any part of what I'm saying a "pathetic detractor." Save it. [/quote] You're free to stop being a pathetic detractor at any time, all it takes is a change in how you make your points. Or that is to say, to start making some. [quote] You're destined to hurt yourselves not because you don't understand the ramifications of your actions, but because you don't care. [/quote] We care and understand the ramifications of our actions. This isn't my first rodeo. I've been here for two years, and in a similar place two more years. I'm well aware of our alliances' actions, and it seems to me that the only ones complaining about our actions here are part of our usual band of detractors, or a few with valid moral complaints. [quote] And yes. For all the lather you've gathered in responding to someone you've vehemently attempted to put down in ways other than a clear response you do seem just a tad bit desperate. Effectively saying "No, you," isn't your best work here. [/quote] You know, it would probably help you make points if you, I don't know, quoted the parts of my posts that you were responding to, just saying. I see you've also rejected my request to make valid points and debate in favor of more flailing, a pity. Edited March 3, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Yes you have. You stated you were threatened and then backtracked to the point of now it being a question of whether you're actually an endangered species or not, and not a threat. You also did this while throwing in arguments and things from other people that may or may not have been true (you didn't present them,) and then while managing to forget who said what still managed to attempt to belittle me simply because I am the current person you are responding to. Again, for the overarching argument being that your behavior and actions are not a problem and will not be/can not be a long term problem for the sole reason that they are not an issue it would not be wise to flaunt the worst affects of it for the world to see. I've made the very valid points that your behavior is not sustainable long-term, and that your perpetuation of belittling anyone who might have a moral objection (as you'd hope would really be a differentiation,) or otherwise is not really a good defense against you not acting as said. That a horde of your members then took to criticizing others for these simple objections with valid point is not deniable, and just because you want to wrap it up now because it has gotten too messy for your liking is unacceptable. My points have been made and are still unanswered. You seem to disagree that acting in your current manner is detrimental to your long-term health, and that's your decision to make. I wouldn't put others down so vehemently for suggesting it is the wrong decision to make. Because it is. Edited March 3, 2012 by IYIyTh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330812620' post='2932690'] Yes you have. You stated you were threatened and then backtracked to the point of now it being a question of whether you're actually an endangered species or not, and not a threat. [/quote] I have not backtracked, it was a threat, same as that random CoJ guy's. [quote] You also did this while throwing in arguments and things from other people that may or may not have been true (you didn't present them,) and then while managing to forget who said what still managed to attempt to belittle me simply because I am the current person you are responding to. Again, for the overarching argument being that your behavior and actions are not a problem and will not be/can not be a long term problem for the sole reason that they are not an issue it would not be wise to flaunt the worst affects of it for the world to see. [/quote] You say this as if the burden of proof is on me to prove that it won't be a problem. I point to the past two years of successful goonery, where do you point to demonstrate where the problems come in? [quote] I've made the very valid points that your behavior is not sustainable long-term, [/quote] And I've made the point that our behavior to our lesser detractors such as yourself is utterly irrelevant as to our position in the world. Were questions asked respectfully, they will be answered respectfully. [quote] and that your perpetuation of belittling anyone who might have a moral objection [/quote] We do not belittle those who have moral objections. We belittle people who insult, threaten us and attempt to twist the facts. [quote] That a horde of your members then took to criticizing others for these simple objections with valid point is not deniable, and just because you want to wrap it up now because it has gotten too messy for your liking is unacceptable. [/quote] Wrap it up? I can do this all day buddy. You make yourself look worse with each post. I was merely stating that you might be more successful were you debating our policies from a moral or structural basis. [quote] My points have been made and are still unanswered. You seem to disagree that acting in your current manner is detrimental to your long-term health, and that's your decision to make. I wouldn't put others down so vehemently for suggesting it is the wrong decision to make. Because it is. [/quote] Let me break this down for you again: your opinions are not those of the majority, not even close. Don't talk down to us as if you were some overarching mouthpiece for the world at large. If your only point is that we're big meanies who are going to get rolled when we anger the wrong people, it's firstly not a very strong or interesting argument and secondly, it's on you to prove that assertion. I'm not going to waste my time trying to prove a negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 1) MK is ghosting GOONS because we wanna keep this fantastic pip, not to pad losses. 2) If no-one outside of GOONS's direct allies cared about them due to their aggressive nature, they'd never have been able to grow their ally base to begin with. It's not like they suddenly started being abrasive a month ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 For the kind of drivel that I've come to expect from you and yours stating that your group of individuals who terrorize and go out of their way to humiliate others for fun is an "endangered species," isn't a threat, it's a fact. You keep tossing around there being some burden of proof on me as if the world is flat until we get some sort of theorem or sail around the world to prove it. That you're all on the defensive about your actions for what in the past would amount to a simple raid is proof enough times are changing. Whether or not you want to acknowledge it or flail your hands in the air and believe it's not possible that the international community could possibly agree that, well, acting like GOONS is bad isn't the least bit interesting to me, or worthy of debate. You can keep clutching your short-term gains for hope of forestalling your long-term decline, but you should probably respond as you have now instead of the manner in which you have started in belittling each and every person who offered a different perspective. I know that you think you're winning some sort of competition[i] in your head[/i] by breaking down every sentence and not actually responding to the topic at hand, but I assure you that's not the case. Go ahead, go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330812620' post='2932690'] snip [/quote] Look, if we get stomped because of our policies and this iteration of our alliance crumbles into the ether, who are you going to cannibalise next? You say that the times are with you and your world view but I think you forget how quickly the winds of public opinion change when there are no bad guys around to vilify and slander, unless you manage to find some new ones of course In truth, I think what you advocate is the further decline of this place, but just in a different way to us (which is fine by me) - the only real question is whether we'll be around for the death rattle or not. Personally, I think it'll be more interesting if we are still here but that's just me I suppose. I think what we have to offer is something that people like you seem to need, tbqh. Just as an aside, I witnessed many here throughout the course of 2008 and early 2009 clamouring for the return of alliances like \m/, gen[M]ay and GOONS (and not just ex-members either) precisely because the world of the Continuum was stale, boring and predictable. The world that you seem to be aiming for will be much the same, at least to me. All I see from you is a rally cry against bad guys but nothing really about the future beyond that, which is a bit sad I think. Edited March 3, 2012 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330814018' post='2932703'] For the kind of drivel that I've come to expect from you and yours stating that your group of individuals who terrorize and go out of their way to humiliate others for fun is an "endangered species," isn't a threat, it's a fact. You keep tossing around there being some burden of proof on me as if the world is flat until we get some sort of theorem or sail around the world to prove it. That you're all on the defensive about your actions for what in the past would amount to a simple raid is proof enough times are changing. [/quote] You really haven't been paying attention if you think that: 1. Things are getting less favorable for our worldview. and 2. That this situation arose of "a simple raid". You probably think we raided mongols, how silly. [quote] Whether or not you want to acknowledge it or flail your hands in the air and believe it's not possible that the international community could possibly agree that, well, acting like GOONS is bad isn't the least bit interesting to me, or worthy of debate. You can keep clutching your short-term gains for hope of forestalling your long-term decline, [/quote] What long-term decline? This is the kind of war that makes the membership happy, and gives us a long-term gain in retention. [quote] but you should probably respond as you have now instead of the manner in which you have started in belittling each and every person who offered a different perspective. [/quote] This is a word salad, but I think what you're saying is that we insult everyone who doesn't think as we do, we don't. [quote] I know that you think you're winning some sort of competition[i] in your head[/i] by breaking down every sentence and not actually responding to the topic at hand, but I assure you that's not the case. Go ahead, go for it! [/quote] Heh, that's rich. I respond to each point individually, you blindly state the same thing over and over worded differently each time, as if repeating your misguided words over and over gave them power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1330814779' post='2932709'] Look, if we get stomped because of our policies and this iteration of our alliance crumbles into the ether, who are you going to cannibalise next? You say that the times are with you and your world view but I think you forget how quickly the winds of public opinion change when there are no bad guys around to vilify and slander, unless you manage to find some new ones of course In truth, I think what you advocate is the further decline of this place, but just in a different way to us (which is fine by me) - the only real question is whether we'll be around for the death rattle or not. Personally, I think it'll be more interesting if we are still here but that's just me I suppose. I think what we have to offer is something that people like you seem to need, tbqh. Just as an aside, I witnessed many here throughout the course of 2008 and early 2009 clamouring for the return of alliances like \m/, gen[M]ay and GOONS (and not just ex-members either) precisely because the world of the Continuum was stale, boring and predictable. The world that you seem to be aiming for will be much the same, at least to me. All I see from you is a rally cry against bad guys but nothing really about the future beyond that, which is a bit sad I think. [/quote] I'm convinced there will be a mass extinction when that event occurs, mostly self-induced. But that's getting at an even larger topic. I just wanted to focus on how in the short term it's really not a good idea and how it's in no way justifiable to treat others like crap. But some people apparently disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunhill2071 Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Sard is winning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choson Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330815593' post='2932719'] I just wanted to focus on how in the short term it's really not a good idea and how it's in no way justifiable to treat others like crap. [/quote] Except for when people treat GOONS like crap, right? It all makes so much sense now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='Choson' timestamp='1330816514' post='2932727'] Except for when people treat GOONS like crap, right? It all makes so much sense now! [/quote] I'm sure the Mongols are flattered you hold them in such high esteem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330815593' post='2932719'] I'm convinced there will be a mass extinction when that event occurs, mostly self-induced. But that's getting at an even larger topic. I just wanted to focus on how in the short term it's really not a good idea and how it's in no way justifiable to treat others like crap. But some people apparently disagree. [/quote] So do I take it from your response that you agree with the points I raised above? Choson makes a good point. Your tirades tend to be all about how we should wind our necks in and everything will somehow be hunky dory. I think that if we did that, things would be boring, you'd have nobody to talk at and we'd all probably end up packing it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1330817360' post='2932737'] So do I take it from your response that you agree with the points I raised above? Choson makes a good point. Your tirades tend to be all about how we should wind our necks in and everything will somehow be hunky dory. I think that if we did that, things would be boring, you'd have nobody to talk at and we'd all probably end up packing it in. [/quote] No, I agree with the foreshadowed future event, but not your conclusion of how it arrives. I still believe it's possible to have altercations with others or even valid disputes without resorting to constant belittlement, personal attacks centered at the person that detract from the actual topic at hand, and other behavior that has accompanied these traits in more extreme form over time. To a point where it needs to be, has been and will be discussed. As for tirades calling for civility and the lack of bullying needing to provide entertainment, I find the argument faulty. There are plenty of ways one can entertain themselves in this game without the inherent need to act in a deplorable manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ControlVolume Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330814018' post='2932703'] I know that you think you're winning some sort of competition[i] in your head[/i] by breaking down every sentence and not actually responding to the topic at hand, but I assure you that's not the case. [/quote] You see, people of Planet Bob, responding to every post on a point-by-point basis in a civil manner is "not actually responding to the topic at hand." Real debates involve calling all dissenting posts "drivel," insulting the other side with broad generalizations, and then complaining about people being insulting. IYIyTh at his finest, ladies and gentlemen, preaching morals of which even he doesn't adhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 I am the bad guy and I have been vilified and slandered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ControlVolume Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 This topic isn't about you Roq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choson Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330817676' post='2932738'] No, I agree with the foreshadowed future event, but not your conclusion of how it arrives. I still believe it's possible to have altercations with others or even valid disputes without resorting to constant belittlement, personal attacks centered at the person that detract from the actual topic at hand, and other behavior that has accompanied these traits in more extreme form over time. To a point where it needs to be, has been and will be discussed. As for tirades calling for civility and the lack of bullying needing to provide entertainment, I find the argument faulty. There are plenty of ways one can entertain themselves in this game without the inherent need to act in a deplorable manner. [/quote] So, when you get called out on being as harsh, if not harsher, as you claim us GOONS are, it is a quick return to supposed civility? You're almost as two-faced as the god Janus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Choson' timestamp='1330819220' post='2932751'] So, when you get called out on being as harsh, if not harsher, as you claim us GOONS are, it is a quick return to supposed civility? [/quote] You're telling me that anyone who opposes the way you act and treat others is just as bad as you are. Do you understand why this is a flawed concept? I commented on and then received the treatment that many other individuals did when they proposed your actions were not in the right, and if restating them offends you I would suggest not saying and/or doing them in the first place. Edited March 4, 2012 by IYIyTh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choson Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330819649' post='2932755'] You're telling me that anyone who opposes the way you act and treat others is just as bad as you are. [/quote] No, what I'm saying is that anyone who is so singularly focused on trashing us, as an alliance or individuals, no matter what we do is more reprehensible than any act that we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 [quote name='Choson' timestamp='1330820070' post='2932758'] No, what I'm saying is that anyone who is so singularly focused on trashing us, as an alliance or individuals, no matter what we do is more reprehensible than any act that we do. [/quote] I don't think I've ever said anything in a negative regard to GOONS as a whole up until this event here, and it was meant with the same mockery you delivered unto others. While Sardonic tried to clean up the mess, he still has made it abundantly clear he only cares about GOONS actions so long as if enough people with force allow him to continue. Your actions are reprehensible and while anyone can change, you'll have to forgive me if your treatment of others and later myself cause some pretty significant doubts. In the meantime I would refrain from attempting to play the victim. It's just not working well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choson Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330820745' post='2932762'] In the meantime I would refrain from attempting to play the victim. It's just not working well. [/quote] Yes, it certainly isn't working well for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.