GOONS defending the great wall

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330825213' post='2932811']
What unproven, unsourced theory? I stated you've been acting and are acting like a bunch of tools and have been using your own words ITT as pretty prime examples. You've yet to address those in any way shape or form other than "that's just how we are," and "we've calculated that acting this way is better for us long/short term." You keep acting like I need to have some "a-hah," moment afterwards, but the punchline is pretty much given every time you or your members (now, a few were alright, mind you,) posted in response to me. Certainly previously before I entered you had taken to mocking anyone who suggested there might be something wrong with your actions, and you've stated yourself and reinforced it in your last point that you don't care what's said so long as it isn't said by x y z.

Well, here's hoping that list doesn't grow!
[/quote]
Okay, I'm going to say this slowly:

You (Myth) are "arguing" that we will be destroyed because of our "attitude" and "behavior".

This is your unproven theory, and what you've been claiming. Or have you abandoned it?

We are not mocking everyone who questions our actions. We are mocking people who question our actions with insults.

We do not deny that we are jerks to people like you, because you so clearly deserve derision for your insulting non-questioning, half baked theories, and the whole obvious desire to be the prophet of our doom.

Clear enough for you?

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[Roadie]

It might be a weak move, but the DoW is good. Enjoy your kinetic engagements, ladies and gentlemen.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330825471' post='2932813']
Okay, I'm going to say this slowly:

You (Myth) are "arguing" that we will be destroyed because of our "attitude" and "behavior".

This is your unproven theory, and what you've been claiming. Or have you abandoned it?

We are not mocking everyone who questions our actions. We are mocking people who question our actions with insults.

We do not deny that we are dicks to people like you, because you so clearly deserve derision for your insulting non-questioning, half baked theories, and the whole obvious desire to be the prophet of our doom.


[/quote]

Where did I say destroy? I suppose if I put words in your mouth and get someone to +1 "IYIyTh is winning argument lolz," I could really keep up with the rhetorical circles you're running around me.
I said your behavior and actions are not supportive of your long term health and are not in touch with the international norm, and that your behavior and actions are not something that the rest of the community agrees with a whole.

Like this right here: http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0

Clearly, as for your further personal attacks just really re-establishing and re-inforcing my point:
I don't care what sort of nasty things you have to say to me and other people, but don't pretend it doesn't have ramifications or attempt to play the victim when someone contests it.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330825693' post='2932816']
Where did I say destroy? I suppose if I put words in your mouth and get someone to +1 "IYIyTh is winning argument lolz," I could really keep up with the rhetorical circles you're running around me.
I said your behavior and actions are not supportive of your long term health and are not in touch with the international norm, and that your behavior and actions are not something that the rest of the community agrees with a whole.
[/quote]
Okay whatever it is you're trying to prove please provide some evidence. Evidence of people caring.
[quote]
Like this right here: http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0

Clearly, as for your further personal attacks just really re-establishing and re-inforcing my point:
[/quote]
Nope, doesn't reinforce anything, because you won't find anybody that cares about it.
[quote]
I don't care what sort of nasty things you have to say to me and other people, but don't pretend it doesn't have ramifications or attempt to play the victim when someone contests it.
[/quote]
I don't need to pretend mocking you doesn't have ramifications, I know it doesn't, and I'd like to see you prove it does.

[Phineas]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330823719' post='2932791']
Why do you think it is that nobody is standing up for you here Myth and supporting your arguments?
[/quote]

Sardonic, The lack of people adding to what Myth is pointing out about your rush to war with the Mongols and Kaskus is not one of you has been able to logically respond to any of his posts.

He has you and your mates jumping around like a bunch of circus monkeys. It's almost entertaining on that level alone.

Also, this is not at all an insult. I, for one, find your repetitive attempts at circular argumentation rather marvelous since that puts you a step far above real circus monkeys, who are not usually known for this level of ability in repeatedly mimicking human speech patterns.

[Omniscient1]

Well Mongols isn't nice, they're not going to get an invite to any new black blocs soon.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330826077' post='2932817']
Okay whatever it is you're trying to prove please provide some evidence. Evidence of people caring. [/quote]

You are my evidence
[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330826077' post='2932817']
Nope, doesn't reinforce anything, because you won't find anybody that cares about it. [/quote]
Good, so even if you've been proven wrong and completely give up now no one cares about it! Great to know!

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330826077' post='2932817']
I don't need to pretend mocking you doesn't have ramifications, I know it doesn't, and I'd like to see you prove it does.
[/quote]


Is this the :dosomethingaboutit: callout? And people said this declaration was weak.
If asking if you could not act like total dicks to people (self-included,) that simply were discussing how your actions aren't the best, I don't know what to tell you.
Hell, for being the big bad bully flipping the :dosomethingaboutit: over to that "pathetic, irrelevant, incompetent, ad hominem, I hate you," or any other person who has challenged you on the subject is piss weak.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1330826159' post='2932818']
Sardonic, The lack of people adding to what Myth is pointing out about your rush to war with the Mongols and Kaskus is not one of you has been able to logically respond to any of his posts.

He has you and your mates jumping around like a bunch of circus monkeys. It's almost entertaining on that level alone.

Also, this is not at all an insult. I, for one, find your repetitive attempts at circular argumentation rather marvelous since that puts you a step far above real circus monkeys, who are not usually known for this level of ability in repeatedly mimicking human speech patterns.
[/quote]
He has us jumping through hoops? That's laughable. What you don't seem to understand is that his posts aren't logical, they're emotional diatribes with no facts to back them up.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330826289' post='2932821']
You are my evidence
[/quote]
You can't possibly be this stupid. What? How am I evidence that people care about what you have to say about us and our polices.
[quote]
Good, so even if you've been proven wrong and completely give up now no one cares about it! Great to know!
[/quote]
What? What does any of this have to do with what I said?
[quote]
Is this the :dosomethingaboutit: callout? And people said this declaration was weak.
If asking if you could not act like total dicks to people (self-included,) that simply were discussing how your actions aren't the best, I don't know what to tell you.
Hell, for being the big bad bully flipping the :dosomethingaboutit: over to that "pathetic, irrelevant, incompetent, ad hominem, I hate you," or any other person who has challenged you on the subject is piss weak.
[/quote]
Oh, I get it now, you think you're important because I'm replying to your posts.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330826387' post='2932822']
He has us jumping through hoops? That's laughable. What you don't seem to understand is that his posts aren't logical, they're emotional diatribes with no facts to back them up.
[/quote]

Who exactly are you trying to kid here?
I've presented you with nearly three pages of facts and rebuttals to your claims and the end result was you stating "that's great, but I don't care anymore."

The hoop quip is especially funny with the pretty on-the-spot connection to your method of circular reasoning throughout.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330826613' post='2932824']
Who exactly are you trying to kid here?
I've presented you with nearly three pages of facts and rebuttals to your claims and the end result was you stating "that's great, but I don't care anymore."

The hoop quip is especially funny with the pretty on-the-spot connection to your method of circular reasoning throughout.
[/quote]
Please provide examples of:
[list]
[*]Circular Reasoning
[*]Any facts utilized by you
[*]Where I said "I don't care anymore"
[/list]
Because you're basically just the lazy college student demanding an A because you met the length requirement of an essay but the content was filler and garbage at this point.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[Phineas]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330826387' post='2932822']
He has us jumping through hoops? That's laughable. What you don't seem to understand is that his posts aren't logical, they're emotional diatribes with no facts to back them up.
[/quote]

Awe, you're a good boy. Thanks for the banana.

Back to reality, reading through the mercy board link, it is revealing to see one of your mates hoped right from the start that this would get Kaskus burned, too, because "micro-politics is BS." That's a cool justification for war.

[Sardonic]

Basically Myth, your entire argument is predicated on people caring about what you and others like you have to say about us, and you've done $%&@all to prove that. That's not me saying I don't care, that's me saying your argument is unsupported tripe. You've neither proved that we insult and drown out all detractors, nor that our actions against you and others like you will have any effect whatsoever. Also, I'm flattered you'd attribute such importance to me but that I'm responding to your nonsense does not mean you are important in the grand scheme of things. At all.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330827033' post='2932828']
Basically Myth, your entire argument is predicated on people caring about what you and others like you have to say about us, and you've done $%&@all to prove that. That's not me saying I don't care, that's me saying your argument is unsupported tripe. You've neither proved that we insult and drown out all detractors, nor that our actions against you and others like you will have any effect whatsoever. Also, I'm flattered you'd attribute such importance to me but that I'm responding to your nonsense does not mean you are important in the grand scheme of things. At all.
[/quote]

My argument is based upon your own actions and words. That you believe your own words are unsupported or is somehow not an argument because your actions and words are in fact the evidence does not make your claim that the argument is invalid logical. You have lashed out at anyone (see: multiple people from every spectrum of CN,) of people you claim or perceive to be detractors without any reason other than you'd rather not have to answer for your actions. You asked for evidence of someone caring and quite profoundly ignored one of the four or so people who had been hinging on every word in each of my posts since I offered my input (yourself.)

Your evidence has already been provided:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109380&view=findpost&p=2932645

That's was over the span of a couple pages. Since then it has grown tremendously. I don't exactly know what you want more evidence of?.

[url="http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0"]http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0[/url]

You apparently cared so little that you decided to change the OP as well.

Your kind have gone out of your way to act in an reproachable manner towards not only the individuals in this alliance, but to others who dare suggest your treatment of them was unbecoming.
Having been provided examples, you then state that no one cares. At one point you even made the amazing claim that because I didn't have members of my own alliance or some other nonsense +1'ing my posts sentiment was not shared by anyone in the entire game and thus the claims I had been proven were worthless.


Having that bit of infinite wisdom shot down with a flak cannon, you have decided that the tired line of "there is no evidence of us acting as you describe," as being somehow defensible.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330829441' post='2932846']
My argument is based upon your own actions and words. That you believe your own words are unsupported or is somehow not an argument because your actions and words are in fact the evidence does not make your claim that the argument is invalid logical. You have lashed out at anyone (see: multiple people from every spectrum of CN,) of people you claim or perceive to be detractors without any reason other than you'd rather not have to answer for your actions. You asked for evidence of someone caring and quite profoundly ignored one of the four or so people who had been hinging on every word in each of my posts since I offered my input (yourself.)

Your evidence has already been provided:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109380&view=findpost&p=2932645

That's was over the span of a couple pages. Since then it has grown tremendously. I don't exactly know what you want more evidence of?.

[url="http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0"]http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0[/url]

You apparently cared so little that you decided to change the OP as well.
[/quote]
Oh, okay, if that's the case, you could have just simply stated "You're a dick, Sardonic". Because that's the only conclusion that your "evidence" even approaches proving. That I've responded to you doesn't prove anything. OOC: Beyond the fact that I'm procrastinating writing yet another damn strategic management case. Your "evidence" doesn't prove anything, especially nothing as grandiose as you claim, that mocking and belittling you will have an effect on anything.
[quote]
Your kind have gone out of your way to act in an reproachable manner towards not only the individuals in this alliance, but to others who dare suggest your treatment of them was unbecoming.
Having been provided examples, you then state that no one cares. At one point you even made the amazing claim that because I didn't have members of my own alliance or some other nonsense +1'ing my posts sentiment was not shared by anyone in the entire game and thus the claims I had been proven were worthless.
[/quote]
Never claimed there weren't any misguided souls who share your views, just that it's telling that none of them have shown up to support those views.
[quote]
Having that bit of infinite wisdom shot down with a flak cannon, you have decided that the tired line of "there is no evidence of us acting as you describe," as being somehow defensible.
[/quote]
I never claimed that our entire membership acts in one way or another, just that our diplomatic interactions are always above board. And you have no evidence of how we acted in the private negotiations, only evidence of how we acted after they failed. So you fail to even prove that.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[ControlVolume]

I would be in favor of rolling Sard.

e:
[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1330826863' post='2932826']
Awe, you're a good boy. Thanks for the banana.
[/quote]
This guy too, ugh pretending to be a puppet master is insufferable as $%&@.

Edited March 4, 2012 by ControlVolume

[IYIyTh]

OOC: You're keeping me from Corp. Finance /OOC

The conclusion the evidence provides compounded with the given that you have also harassed individuals who similarly expressed dissenting opinions earlier in the thread is that my argument that you are acting deplorably and continue to do so despite knowing you are wrong.

No, you claimed that the argument wasn't valid or didn't matter simply because there was a lack of parroting, which was extremely weak.

The burden of proof to provide what isn't unprovideable isn't on me.
I can only provide what is possible to provide and that, my friend, is the reprehensible behavior exhibited on your forums in response to a member of Mongols coming over ([url="http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0"]http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0[/url]) and here to the response of nearly every single person who offered an alternative perspective.

So unless you're going to show me proof of you apologizing to the Mongols or at leas the member who came to your board seeking peace you have no ground to stand on there to claim that you haven't acted in the manner I've described.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330830554' post='2932854']
The conclusion the evidence provides compounded with the given that you have also harassed individuals who similarly expressed dissenting opinions earlier in the thread is that my argument that you are acting deplorably and continue to do so despite knowing you are wrong.
[/quote]
So your argument is that I'm acting deplorably. Okay, great, glad to get that out in the open. Additionally, what exactly do you think I'm wrong about? Caring about the fallout from lampooning you?
[quote]
No, you claimed that the argument wasn't valid or didn't matter simply because there was a lack of parroting, which was extremely weak.
[/quote]
I also claimed it has insufficient proof. There are a variety of reasons why your argument fails to prove anything important. Poor evidence, no warrants to your claims, poor reasoning (What I have to say is important because Sardonic responds to everything I say in response to him), etc.
[quote]
The burden of proof to provide what isn't unprovideable isn't on me.
[/quote]
If your burden of proof is unprovable perhaps you shouldn't be making the argument at all. It's not unprovable though, give me concrete examples of why I should care about being the way I am to people like you.
[quote]
I can only provide what is possible to provide and that, my friend, is the reprehensible behavior exhibited on your forums in response to a member of Mongols coming over ([url="http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0"]http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.0[/url]) and here to the response of nearly every single person who offered an alternative perspective.
[/quote]
That's just the membership and lower government having their fun for the most part, it is not indicative of our high level diplomatic profile in the least in the thread. As to what was said here, our detractors tend not to make reasoned arguments about our policy or moral reasoning. Except for policy wonks like Schattenmann, bless his annoying heart. Had reasonable posts been made asking those questions without the none-too-subtle barbs, we would absolutely have responded to them in kind. It's hard to debate with somebody who spat in your face.
[quote]
So unless you're going to show me proof of you apologizing to the Mongols or at leas the member who came to your board seeking peace you have no ground to stand on there to claim that you haven't acted in the manner I've described.
[/quote]
I don't have to provide anything. Private communications will remain private.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330831391' post='2932870']
So your argument is that I'm acting deplorably. Okay, great, glad to get that out in the open. Additionally, what exactly do you think I'm wrong about? Caring about the fallout from lampooning you?

I also claimed it has insufficient proof. There are a variety of reasons why your argument fails to prove anything important. Poor evidence, no warrants to your claims, poor reasoning (What I have to say is important because Sardonic responds to everything I say in response to him), etc.

If your burden of proof is unprovable perhaps you shouldn't be making the argument at all. It's not unprovable though, give me concrete examples of why I should care about being the way I am to people like you. [/quote]

1. It's not just you, friend. While I'm all for taking one for the team, this has been a team effort!
2. You asked and begged for proof, each time you have been provided it you have claimed it doesn't matter. At this point I understand you think that just switching from one argument to the other makes you look like you're actually saying something, but you're not.
3. I've already proved it. You state there is evidence to the contrary but refuse to disclose it. Therefore the only evidence that is lacking is yours, in that you do not behave as you have been evidenced to have in that thread on your boards and in this very thread but the world is to believe you're actually all sugar and cupcakes outside of these multiple instances.
4. You claim people who have been belittled or taunted for simply having an opposing viewpoint now actually had no reasonable points at all. If that were the case (which it isn't,) it does not necessitate the behavior you have transgressed towards these individuals.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330831391' post='2932870']
I don't have to provide anything.
[/quote]

Good. So I guess the whole charade of asking for proof that you had already been provided was just a shot in the dark hoping to detract from the fact that you have nothing to show that you apologized to that members of Mongols for the treatment you gave them. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since in the multiple exchanges here in one sentence you would ask for proof, receive it, and then attempt to justify the abuse in the next.

Edited March 4, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330831790' post='2932875']
2. You asked and begged for proof, each time you have been provided it you have claimed it doesn't matter. At this point I understand you think that just switching from one argument to the other makes you look like you're actually saying something, but you're not.
[/quote]
No, it's that your evidence [b]does not prove the second half of your primary claim: that our dickishness will be our undoing[/b] You've proved that we're dicks to people who don't engage us in valid debate. Good work there sport, now let's see you connect that to the second half of your argument.
[quote]
4. You claim people who have been belittled or taunted for simply having an opposing viewpoint now actually had no reasonable points at all. If that were the case (which it isn't,) it does not necessitate the behavior you have transgressed towards these individuals.
[/quote]
Once Trimm asked policy questions, you'll note how I answered them. All it takes is asking the right questions, without an overabundance of rudeness. Rudeness will be returned with interest.

[quote]
Good. So I guess the whole charade of asking for proof that you had already been provided was just a shot in the dark hoping to detract from the fact that you have nothing to show that you apologized to that members of Mongols for the treatment you gave them. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since in the multiple exchanges here in one sentence you would ask for proof, receive it, and then attempt to justify it in the next.
[/quote]
We have nothing to apologize for, if they didn't want the mercy board treatment they should have just gave us the 18m.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330832185' post='2932881']
No, it's that your evidence does not prove the second half of your primary claim: that our dickishness will be our undoing [/quote]

Oh! That's what you wanted? This whole time?
Yeah I can't [i]prove[/i] that in the literal sense. I also can't prove what happens if my nation wanders into a black hole, but I'm sure it's not good.

Otherwise yeah, you just have no reason to be dicks to others for calling you out and bawwing about it is just kind of...weak.

As for everything else: Nah, you would've treated Trimm just as dickish had he not been from Argent, which you p much admitted earlier even if he asked the same questions I did. Also, you should be sorry. Your treatment of that member of Mongols is deplorable, and so is your behavior towards the international community at large here.

Edited March 4, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330832461' post='2932887']
Oh! That's what you wanted? This whole time? Yeah I can't [i]prove[/i] that in the literal sense. I also can't prove what happens if my nation wanders into a black hole, but I'm sure it's not good.
[/quote]
OK great, thanks, that settles that.
[quote]
Otherwise yeah, you just have no reason to be dicks to others for calling you out and bawwing about it is just kind of...weak.
[/quote]
We're only dicks if people ask the question with an insult or implicit insult. Ask some valid policy questions, ask some valid moral reasoning questions, and you will get valid answers in return. Even you may do so.

[quote]
As for everything else: Nah, you would've treated Trimm just as dickish had he not been from Argent,
[/quote]
Yep, an argument from one in an alliance one chain our from mine is going to get more attention than one from the other side of the web. Millions shocked.
[quote]
Also, you should be sorry. Your treatment of that member of Mongols is deplorable, and so is your behavior towards the international community at large here.
[/quote]
You are not "the international community".

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330832744' post='2932892']
OK great, thanks, that settles that.

We're only dicks if people ask the question with an insult or implicit insult. Ask some valid policy questions, ask some valid moral reasoning questions, and you will get valid answers in return.
[/quote]

Why are you the way that you are?

Why wasn't his answer acceptable? The bit about Emperor Marx and the cigars made me lose it.

Do you plan on being evil for the sake of being evil to continually attract your main asset, an infinite supply base of new recruits from another land, or will there be a time and place when you don't have to be such GOONS?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330832852' post='2932895']
Why are you the way that you are?
[/quote]
In a nutshell: our culture.
[quote]
Why wasn't his answer acceptable? The bit about Emperor Marx and the cigars made me lose it.
[/quote]
Er, what are you referring to here?
[quote]
Do you plan on being evil for the sake of being evil to continually attract your main asset, an infinite supply base of new recruits from another land, or will there be a time and place when you don't have to be such GOONS?
[/quote]
Now now, we are not evil for the sake of being evil, all of our "evilness" as you call it is well laid out and codified in our constitution. We do nothing that unfairly victimizes people for no reason, unless you think tech raiding is evil, or demanding reps from those who aid raid targets is evil, which you probably do. There may be a time when the political strength of GOONS fails, but that is not this day, week, nor probably year.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330833296' post='2932899']

Er, what are you referring to here?[/quote]
His post. The part about Groucho (Emperor,) Marx and the Cuban cigars. It's around midway through his first response on page two.
Was it because there was a distinct lack of illustration?
[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330833296' post='2932899']
Now now, we are not evil for the sake of being evil, all of our "evilness" as you call it is well laid out and codified in our constitution.
[/quote]

So you don't find anything at all wrong in treating or allowing individuals such as the individual came over to secure peace so...crappily?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330833517' post='2932905']
His post. The part about Groucho (Emperor,) Marx and the Cuban cigars. It's around midway through his first response on page two.
Was it because there was a distinct lack of illustration?
[/quote]
Well he did answer the question. I'm sure if he had posted something more detailed somebody would have responded to it on policy grounds. Marx isn't highgov though so he's more than excused from doing the legwork of our policy debating unless he really wants to.
[quote]
So you don't find anything at all wrong in treating or allowing individuals such as the individual came over to secure peace so...crappily?
[/quote]
It's a tough crowd, admittedly, but sometimes wondrous art can be produced from the system, so it's worth it in the end. Art through adversity and all that.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Sardonic