Announcement from Non Grata

[D34th]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317278381' post='2811350']
If this were true you wouldn't be supporting tech raiding and refusing to pay reparations. You are at this very moment supporting an alliance rather than principles.
[/quote]

I'm not supporting tech raid and I acknowledge that what UPN did was stupid, but they also acknowledged that were willing to pay a fair and reasonable reparation for the stupidity of one of their members, but I can't support extortion, I'm sure that if it had happened with an alliance in a better political position NG would have agree in at least talk about the value instead of imposing it. I believe the punishment should be proportional to the fault, not overwhelm it. The lack of reasonableness is what make doesn't agree with NG decision.


[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1317278905' post='2811363']
We became a part of the conversation as soon as you accused me of posting in the interest of "earning a spot at the table of power".
[/quote]

I accused [b]you[/b], not Rok. I don't see any other Rok member rushing to criticize Polaris every time our name appears in OWF.

Edited September 29, 2011 by D34th

[Seerow]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317279062' post='2811366']
I'm not sure how he's supporting tech raiding when he sides with his ally over an attacking alliance who tech raids very openly, the hypocrisy in how UPN is being treated compared to another tech raiding alliance with more of the same allies as Non Grata or how Non Grata would expect be treated is obvious. Also someone can oppose both tech raiding and reparations, that he doesn't think UPN should need to pay $30m over a tech raid doesn't mean he supports tech raiding.

I don't see anything wrong with Non Grata starting a war with UPN here, but lets not get overly caught up in pretending its due to UPN tech raiding.
[/quote]

It IS due to UPN tech raiding though. If UPN didn't tech raid, or if they were more careful in their raiding, none of this would have happened. Hell, even if it was a normal member, rather than their MoD, it probably could have been ignored. Instead, what we have is UPN tech raiding, and refusing to pay reparations due.

Point out an instance of NG having this same problem. I'm sure they've had their share of bad raids (what raiding alliance doesn't?), but chances are they paid for them. Because if they didn't, we'd have had a big thread on OWF like this one except about NG instead. But without Polar defending them, despite Polar claiming to defend ideals rather than friends.


[quote]I'm not supporting tech raid and I acknowledge that what UPN did was stupid, but they also acknowledged that were willing to pay a fair and reasonable reparation for the stupidity of one of their members, but I can't support extortion, I'm sure that if it had happened with an alliance in a better political position NG would have agree in at least talk about the value instead of imposing it. I believe the punishment should be proportional to the fault, not overwhelm it. The lack of reasonableness is what make doesn't agree with NG decision.
[/quote]

30million is not extortion. 30million is the amount of damage that UPN caused. The continued insistence that UPN was being extorted by being asked to pay reparations equivalent to damage caused is silly, and really needs to stop.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Seerow

[Cager]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1317279126' post='2811368']
Who is we? You change alliances more often than you do underpants. You are as irrelevant now as you ever were, joining the coolish kids is not a big deal. You are simply a twit who has never done anything but likes to pretend he is TrollMaster2000.

You know where my nation is, I dont hide.
[/quote]


I've changed my alliance once in the past.....2 years?. Going off this I'm going to guess you have no idea who I am. Which is probably bad for you since you just wrote up a nice sentence trying to insult me but really it just backfired. I would rather say I've done nothing then completely ruin an entire alliance that I led. Think about it, I know you've got all the time in the world to do so.

[Mandellav]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1317278866' post='2811362']
I appreciate you know nothing about our FA stuff or walking eggshells. You clearly... I mean CLEARLY have never been a part of conversations we have had in and out of the alliance. Friend and foe alike know I don't play the cute and cuddly game.
[/quote]

Wait. Brehon, you said we were friends. We aren't friends? You're using us?

[ddog241]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317279169' post='2811371']
I'm not supporting tech raid and I acknowledge that what UPN did was stupid, but they also acknowledged that were willing to pay a fair and reasonable reparation for the stupidity of one of their members, but I can't support extortion, I'm sure that if it had happened with an alliance in a better political position NG would have agree in at least talk about the value instead of imposing it. I believe the punishment should be proportional to the fault, not overwhelm it. The lack of reasonableness is what make doesn't agree with NG decision.
[/quote]


if i read correctly it was a MOD who did the raids not just some random member. MOD should have known better. thus IMO asking for 30Mil is fair. UPN didnt want to pay so now they are getting rolled.

[D34th]

[quote name='ddog241' timestamp='1317279437' post='2811376']
if i read correctly it was a MOD who did the raids not just some random member. MOD should have known better. thus IMO asking for 30Mil is fair. UPN didnt want to pay so now they are getting rolled.
[/quote]

I didn't know that a government attack cause more damage than a regular member attack. Thanks for inform me.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317279248' post='2811372']
It IS due to UPN tech raiding though. If UPN didn't tech raid, or if they were more careful in their raiding, none of this would have happened. Hell, even if it was a normal member, rather than their MoD, it probably could have been ignored. Instead, what we have is UPN tech raiding, and refusing to pay reparations due.

Point out an instance of NG having this same problem. I'm sure they've had their share of bad raids (what raiding alliance doesn't?), but chances are they paid for them. Because if they didn't, we'd have had a big thread on OWF like this one except about NG instead. But without Polar defending them, despite Polar claiming to defend ideals rather than friends.
[/quote]

I think you are deliberately missing the point as I can no honestly believe you are that dense.

UPN raided the wrong people.
UPN should pay for the damages.
I will never defend anyone's right to raid.
UPN dont want to pay 30 million but lack the allied strength to say no
NG want 30 million and possess said strength to get it so they do.

If MK raided someone from Polaris by ''accident'' you wouldn't pay us whatever we demanded either. Stop being blatatly deceptive about it.

I do not support UPN's actions in any way shape or form.
UPN should pay some reps
I will pay 30 million myself to avert a one sided curbstomp that will lead to a mass evacuation.

Keep your powder dry for something more interesting with better matchups...or are you happy with the cycle as it stands?

[Brehon]

[quote name='Mandellav' timestamp='1317279346' post='2811374']
Wait. Brehon, you said we were friends. We aren't friends? You're using us?
[/quote]

So far... I or we have been lazy, cuddly and sucking up to power while selling out integrity and what was it pride or some !@#$. Because you know we just popped in one day and said "hey you look you are a power teet" and you responded "yes, yes we are and we need Pacifica to hold on that"

Logical... all of it.

[ddog241]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317279522' post='2811377']
I didn't know that a government attack cause more damage than a regular member attack. Thanks for inform me.
[/quote]

Gov should damn well know better.

[Brehon]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317279522' post='2811377']
I didn't know that a government attack cause more damage than a regular member attack. Thanks for inform me.
[/quote]

No but they are certainly of a position to be more responsible. Does that mean higher reps? No, it means fix it because your alliance counts on you to do the right thing.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Brehon

[Sakura]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317279163' post='2811370']
I'm neither here nor there on this one.

Raiding aligned nations is always a risk and when you trip a mine you pay up reps, usually above to odds. I also have trouble believing a raid on a 20K and a 30K nation did only 3 million in damages but without the reports to calculate anything from it is just my opinion based on experience.

On the other hand it was made clear to UPN that 30 million was the lowest offer and that not accepting it meant war. This was a little high-handed and a contradiction of some of the rhetoric here about UPN not negotiating. It is tough to negotiate with someone not interested in negotiation.

But, as with most things these days this appears to be another "foot-in-the-door" opportunity to have a crack as another couple of alliances by the usual suspects.

Have fun guys.
[/quote]

I did a quick (with my discounts on infra) estimate on the damage done to the one that's been at war for four days, and the total is well over 3m.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317279169' post='2811371']
I'm not supporting tech raid and I acknowledge that what UPN did was stupid, but they also acknowledged that were willing to pay a fair and reasonable reparation for the stupidity of one of their members, but I can't support extortion, I'm sure that if it had happened with an alliance in a better political position NG would have agree in at least talk about the value instead of imposing it. I believe the punishment should be proportional to the fault, not overwhelm it. The lack of reasonableness is what make doesn't agree with NG decision.[/quote]

I'd consider 30m cheap considering the circumstances.

Especially since (as I said earlier), the NS losses on one of the two aren't consistent with GAs. They're more consistent with GAs+bombers and CMs.

If NG had asked for 300m, then I'd say it would be extortion. But 30m for that? Not even close.

Plus, throw in that it was the *minister of defense* & that they didn't properly research the raid, I would say that 30m is actually too little.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1317279145' post='2811369']
Relationships? Dude, they don't like any of you guys. The work is simply to avoid being rolled any time a war rolls around. It gets the job done I suppose.
[/quote]


They must be doing an amazingly good job at it then, because they have changed my opinion of them in a complete reversal and I was well known for my hatred of them and them of me. But here we are on their forums all chatting away and having some good conversations. They really pulled the wool over my eyes.

NPO how could you.

[Charles the Great]

While I am happy to see two tech raiding alliances fight. Lets be honest here from what I see 30m was more than reasonable considering the chaos created in the nation attacked and probably barely covers what was lost in infra/tech/land and if it screws up his back collect even more. Not to mention lost tech deals due to aid slots being taken.

As for NG using this to bait NpO.....it was UPN's MOD that did this. Had this been the Lodge I think I might have moved to have the offending Nation declared a rogue and attacked(clarification: this would have to be after an interview with the ruler and determining attitude and intention).

good luck NG...UPN--wth...NpO tough choice not sure what your treaty has as far as "dumb ass clause" but GL

Thank you,
CtG

[Seerow]

[quote]I didn't know that a government attack cause more damage than a regular member attack. Thanks for inform me.
[/quote]

Apparently that government member uses cms and planes on a tech raid, so yes it does cause more damage than a regular attack, by virtue of being less competent.

[quote]I think you are deliberately missing the point as I can no honestly believe you are that dense.

UPN raided the wrong people.
UPN should pay for the damages.
I will never defend anyone's right to raid.
UPN dont want to pay 30 million but lack the allied strength to say no
NG want 30 million and possess said strength to get it so they do.

If MK raided someone from Polaris by ''accident'' you wouldn't pay us whatever we demanded either. Stop being blatatly deceptive about it.

I do not support UPN's actions in any way shape or form.
UPN should pay some reps
I will pay 30 million myself to avert a one sided curbstomp that will lead to a mass evacuation.

Keep your powder dry for something more interesting with better matchups...or are you happy with the cycle as it stands? [/quote]


First, I'm going to point out that was directed at Methrage, not you, given you've already made your stance on this clear.

Second, no MK member would be stupid enough to try to raid polar. Anyone who was would probably be expelled on principle, and you would be welcome to him.

But presuming some MK member hit a 4-5k infra nation being protected by polar, with that protection information easily accessible on the wiki? Yes, we'd pay the 30mil. We've paid similar amounts in the past for bad raids. It's not extortion, it's pretty much SOP.

[Cager]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1317279603' post='2811380']
So far... I or we have been lazy, cuddly and sucking up to power while selling out integrity and what was it pride or some !@#$. Because you know we just popped in one day and said "hey you look you are a power teet" and you responded "yes, yes we are and we need Pacifica to hold on that"

Logical... all of it.
[/quote]


I have power teets. You have my number.

[Letum]

I wouldn't let Brehon anywhere near my power teets.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317279248' post='2811372']
It IS due to UPN tech raiding though. If UPN didn't tech raid, or if they were more careful in their raiding, none of this would have happened. Hell, even if it was a normal member, rather than their MoD, it probably could have been ignored. Instead, what we have is UPN tech raiding, and refusing to pay reparations due.

Point out an instance of NG having this same problem. I'm sure they've had their share of bad raids (what raiding alliance doesn't?), but chances are they paid for them. Because if they didn't, we'd have had a big thread on OWF like this one except about NG instead. But without Polar defending them, despite Polar claiming to defend ideals rather than friends.
[/quote]
Most people don't even ask reps or $6m unless they're looking for war, I would be surprised if you pulled up an example of someone asking $30m of NG and NG paying it. So which alliance leader wants to pick a fight with NG and ask $30m when one of their members gets raided? Probably very few considering how many allies NG has currently, if its NG policy to pay out $30m whenever they do a bad raid maybe they would be more justified in asking for that much here, but as far as I can tell this is just UPN giving NG the CB they need to start a war which they wanted regardless of the tech raid.

Its stupid of UPN to tech raid and hit nations who aren't on none when doing it, which is why I don't have much sympathy for them here, although I still disagree with the rep amount asked being something UPN should of been willing to pay. I don't think NG intended for it to be an amount UPN was willing to pay.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Methrage

[Cager]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1317279893' post='2811395']
I wouldn't let Brehon anywhere near my power teets.
[/quote]

Sometimes you gotta let old wounds heal and just give a little bit.

[Letum]

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1317279937' post='2811398']
Sometimes you gotta let old wounds heal and just give a little bit.
[/quote]

I'm less worried about what I give and more about what I'd receive tbh.

[D34th]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1317279668' post='2811384']
No but they are certainly of a position to be more responsible. Does that mean higher reps? No, it means fix it because your alliance counts on you to do the right thing.
[/quote]

So at least we agree in something, I think the MoD in question who made this stupid raid should step up and offer some kind of additional reparation to NG and to the nations him raided, but something that was proportional to the crime, however NG wasn't willing to negotiate so any kind of negotiation would be impossible. So the only options left was take a stand and keep some respect, the most valuable thing that us, alliances who are isolated in treaty web have, or bend over. And when you bend over the first time nothing will prevent you to bend over always.

[OOC]Also I need to go bed since I have to go to university in 5 hours, I'll gladly keep arguing with you people later[/OOC]

Edited September 29, 2011 by D34th

[Seerow]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317279894' post='2811396']
Most people don't even ask reps or $6m unless they're looking for war, I would be surprised if you pulled up an example of someone asking $30m of NG and NG paying it. So which alliance leader wants to pick a fight with NG and ask $30m when one of their members gets raided? Probably very few considering how many allies NG has currently, if its NG policy to pay out $30m whenever they do a bad raid maybe they would be more justified in asking for that much here, but as far as I can tell this is just UPN giving NG the CB they need to start a war which they wanted regardless of the tech raid.

Its stupid of UPN to tech raid and hit nations who aren't on none when doing it, which is why I don't have much sympathy for them here, although I still disagree with the rep amount asked being something UPN should of been willing to pay. I don't think NG intended for it to be an amount UPN was willing to pay,
[/quote]

I have no access to NG records, so I have no idea. I do know however if someone asked them for money and they denied, it would have shown up on the OWF. Since it hasn't, I can conclude NG has never failed to comply with what was asked from those raided in the case of a failed raid.

Also, are you are saying is that a raided nation is not entitled to compensation equal to the amount lost, on the dime of the aggressors? I mean !@#$, I could understand the claims of extortion if instead of 30mil for those raided, they were asking for 1000 tech to go to themselves, but asking for a full set of aid for each attacked nation really isn't that much. We've gone over the numbers and pointed out how this is at best breaking even for the nations involved, the cries of extortion just seem really pale.



edit: Also typically when reps aren't requested, it's because the nation who was tech raiding is booted or a ghost or some !@#$. (We had an issue with that recently, one of MK's nations being attacked by someone and the idiot just getting booted, which we accepted instead of the reps we wanted). The problem with that in this situation is that the guy is their MoD. Harder to kick him out, impossible to say it was a stupid ghost stirring up trouble.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Seerow

[Schad]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317279163' post='2811370']
I'm neither here nor there on this one.

Raiding aligned nations is always a risk and when you trip a mine you pay up reps, usually above to odds. I also have trouble believing a raid on a 20K and a 30K nation did only 3 million in damages but without the reports to calculate anything from it is just my opinion based on experience.

On the other hand it was made clear to UPN that 30 million was the lowest offer and that not accepting it meant war. This was a little high-handed and a contradiction of some of the rhetoric here about UPN not negotiating. It is tough to negotiate with someone not interested in negotiation.

But, as with most things these days this appears to be another "foot-in-the-door" opportunity to have a crack as another couple of alliances by the usual suspects.

Have fun guys.
[/quote]

If that's what the calculated the damages to be, that's exactly how the negotiation should have worked...they set a price that compensated for damages done, and stuck to their number. Would it have been better if they'd started at a figure disproportionate to damages and allowed themselves to be talked down to $30m?

[Brehon]

Give it to me baby... give me power teets!

[JazAce]

[quote name='Gingervites' timestamp='1317273123' post='2811120']
only a few days into fall and a war already, going to be a fun winter
[/quote]

Winter is coming... This biz will escalate.

P.S. Two man protectorates that don't list their protection in their bios are great fishing nets, aren't they? All you gotta do is wait until someone makes an oversight, bring in the net, humiliate the fish a little and then say "we don't negotiate with fish." And you got yourself a full-scale tech raid.

P.P.S. Not enough people have mentioned that UPN are in the Sentinel bloc which barring a pretty quick change of heart on the negotiation front, will be tested on it's merits immediately. It goes toward my theory that sippyjuice is the cause of all major wars.

P.P.P.S. I apologize for the labored fish metaphor, it was painful for me too, but I had to do it.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

Damn NpO is a joke these days. You can't even keep from being rolled long enough to fight a war with TOP. I honestly just feel sorry for you, it's pretty pathetic.