Il Impero Romano

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330982345' post='2934130'] Also I hope the underlying criticism is also targeted at Impero, because he was running the show too. [/quote] Let's leave Impero out of this conversation he's happily not paying any attention to. Godspeed on the treaty and whatnot.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330559534' post='2930858'] The problem is the former terms are not possible in today's era. I'd welcome you to encourage them to try, though. [/quote] Are you serious?

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1330461749' post='2930149'] So we're going all "Obi Wan Kenobi (from a certain point of view...)" are we? [/quote] I don't speak spanish. [quote] Ok then, forgetting any possible hypocrisy, what about GOONS policy on the issue is good/correct/reasonable? Seriously. [/quote] You're asking the wrong question, but the right answer is that there is nothing [i]un[/i]reasonable about it, and it's correct because it fits their needs and protects their interests. However, the same applies to any opposite viewpoints or juxtapositioned policies as well. Where you really wanted to go with this is the 'good' portion, but 'good' doesn't factor into it. In normal circumstances, such as here, the way an alliance applies internal standards, interprets a word, etc isn't an issue of right or wrong even where the application of those standards leads to conflict with an opposing viewpoint and ultimately war. In short, it's just not a big deal. People do things differently and both approaches to these detail based issues can be, and usually are, absolutely fine. There isn't always something outrageously wrong

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1330454150' post='2930079'] More like Schatt points out the inherent hypocrisy of some tech raiding alliances. [/quote] Everyone is inherently hypocritical, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that normally. All of us advocate different positions based on where we fall on a given issue, and we do it every day whether we consciously realize it or not. The term is truly only an insult when it refers to flip flops on grand, overarching concepts, not interpretive definitions. I don't see the former here.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330367536' post='2929356'] Have you ever heard of a tech deal where the seller is sent tech, money, and soldiers? Because I'd like to get in on that. [/quote] Don't even bother man, if someone says they can't see the difference between aid sent with a subversive intent and a damn tech deal, then they are lying and will continue to play pretend no matter if the literal facts very clearly say otherwise or not. I don't know how, but even after all these years and enough experience to expect it, you people still amaze me sometimes with your willingness to freak out over everything.

Nothing will ever be the same.

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1329972873' post='2926251'] I fail to see how this policy would conflict with the policy which UE has made. [/quote] I bet you don't actually fail to see it.

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1329964294' post='2926059'] I thought we had a thing going when we were yelling at VE together, it was cute. [/quote] [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329964358' post='2926064'] MoP: It was due to a lie. Raken's lie, in fact. [/quote] Either way man, hes got a point. It was cute.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1329915536' post='2925540'] PB doesn't like Mjolnir. That much has been true since you led Umbrella. The Kingdom was aggressively pro-NSO for the entirety of Tetris-Legion. I wish I could have done more to help NSO out of it. Except we haven't. PB has consistently disliked NoR's other allies (excepting Asgard) and it's an open secret that Viridia wanted to destroy Ragnarok (not much point to it now, though). The Kingdom consistently protested any attempt to sour relations or open conflict with Mjolnir for the entirety of the bloc's existence, to the point that it made for tense relations with the Dutch during the FOK-DT affair. Your own preference prior to departure was to allow for Mjolnir's destruction. You've done nothing but vilify the Kingdom and her allies in the hopes of personal glory since you returned. You've a log in your eye. [/quote] Now now Ardus, lets not go overboard.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329940845' post='2925659'] This policy explicitly nullifies the "contract" when said contract is unsolicited and the money is shipped off to the nation before they even have a chance to agree to any such offer. UE does not view the offering of financial aid as a contract, we view it as the offering of financial aid, ie, what it is. We are not infringing on an alliance's sovereign right to send their money where they want to send it; If they want to send it to us, that's their choice. If a PM exchange takes place and a contract is ironed out and agreed upon by both parties BEFORE any money offers are actually sent, it is a different than what this policy covers. What some parties are doing here, is the equivalent of walking out on the street, placing $20 dollars into the hands of a stranger, and then claiming they agreed to a contract to hand over their watch when no such contract was ever ironed out ahead of time. Likewise, this policy does not cover the scenario where, for example, a UE guy pays a visit to MK asking people to buy his tech; He is soliciting those transactions, and the policy explicitly only covers unsolicited offers. As a note, again, we have a refund policy in place, and we will make every effort to correct honest mistakes by unknowing parties, while at the same time not entertaining malicious attempts to abuse our good will. [/quote] You can't nullify a fundamental contract principal and common sense just by saying so. How you view the matter personally has no bearing on what is actually taking place in the transaction. A contract between the two nations is formed if the offeree accepts the payment while under notice of the material terms, period. Nothing you post up to the contrary on this forum can change that. As to your analogy, if a stranger holds out 20 dollars to someone in the street and asks them to do a service in return (sounds bad), the person has every right to claim there was a contract if the person accepts the money, and this is true whether there were any prior negotiations between the parties or not. First sentence is the key part your not getting though. The simple fact is, people will continue to function according to the accepted norms of fair dealing and common sense, and no weight will be given by the community to claims by any individual group that they have a 'right' to be treated differently in these types of transactions. It's good that you have a 'refund' policy in place (a.k.a. amounting to normal reps for the situation, thus making the policy itself completely a wash), but you are going to need to make good on every single one, without exception, if you want to avoid having a huge problem.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329932214' post='2925603'] I don't understand why you feel it is impossible for us to follow through on our sovereign rights. We can and we will. [/quote] Simple answer is that you don't have a sovereign right to wrongfully take other people's money, at least not one that anyone will recognize or care about. Tech deals are a contract. Offers to conduct tech deals are offers to make a contract. If you don't wish to do so, you just don't accept the offer. However, if you do take the money, its constructive acceptance to the terms of the underlying contract to produce tech and the engaging nation is bound to make good. Taking the money and not fulfilling the contract's terms is a breach, and any reasonable alliance will come to you seeking recompense for the cash taken, the members head, or war, giving absolutely no deference to whatever policy you may have that says you can do otherwise. It's a norm that's not worth getting yourself hurt over railing against, so if there are any reasonable minds in your government, the first time this policy is tested it will fold. If for some reason you don't have anyone there who can think with a clear head, you will end up getting burned to the ground for nothing at all.

It's going to be impossible for you to follow through on this.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1329827698' post='2925079'] You can spread venom only so much before it's time to put you down: [/quote] Fundamental problem (one of two your post has), is you're assuming there is some kind of set standard for what such 'venom' may be. In reality, there isn't, and it's entirely subjective. To one person looking on, the majority of 'mean' things you see on here are laughably mild compared to real life, not even close to worthy of second glance. To another, its the most shocking thing since that darn Elvis Presley started shaking his hips all over the place down at the county fair. Everyone has different standards as a product of who they are and what they have seen, none being better than another. Obviously, like anything else, there are exceptions which everyone will know by sight, but other then that it's just not possible to use any kind of label like this. I'll admit I never really got the whole OOC-IC distinction beyond what I needed to grasp to follow the rules, so the amount of importance some people put into it has always bothered me a little bit (which is why I'm posting, I usually stay away from these type of topics). To think that someone literally changes their personality when they post in a certain subsection of a forum is a ridiculous fiction in my opinion, so I've always gone on the premise of people are who they are, whether it be here, irc, in pm, or on the street. If someone has an attitude or personality that gets them made fun of in real life, it will probably be no different here since that's human nature. Slapping a different name on yourself doesn't change how people react to you or your shortcomings, whatever they may be. So, when you ask others to 'respect the OOC/IC line', unless your talking about the very few extreme situations we've had, you're asking people to respect a facade people made up to protect themselves from normal social responses, and that's not going to happen here nor anywhere else. [quote] RL consequences for RL offences, if that makes sense. [/quote] Honestly? No, in the context it doesn't.

I could never bring myself to care even in the slightest about stuff like this, either for or against, or wrap my head around why the definition of 'war' mattered at all and whatnot. Really feels like I'm missing out on some fun to be honest.

[quote name='Systemfailure' timestamp='1328514395' post='2915383'] you care enough to post..twice...to tell us that you dont care [/quote] You're reading a little too much into my comment.

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1328513870' post='2915381'] We don't like you very much either, though you don't see us saying it on your announcements do you? [/quote] Sure, but I don't care.

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1328513032' post='2915372'] Still love me though don't ya? [/quote] How could I not?

I don't like you very much, you try way to hard with this type of stuff.

You post a DoW (previously written, of course), from your iPhone while standing wasted at urinal in the bathroom of a packed bar.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1328385920' post='2914537'] Up and dumping SF (and everyone else it seems), sponsoring MA in SF, screwing VE over, jumping into another bloc, signing treaties with questionable alliances, tossing members to the wolves to gain bronwie points ... these are all certainly things that I would never do and gave RoK it's own identity. Sadly, it isn't the sort of identity that you should want. [/quote] I get the feeling that if you would have told this to your former alliance months ago, they may not be where they are today.

Don't even bother trying to explain it, because it won't go away. Ever. I've mentioned it many times before, but it's worth reiterating that the whole 'ad hominem, strawman, paradigm, draconian, etc' word bank is possibly the biggest pet peeve I have in this game. They are almost always used wrong, and even when they aren't it's just seething with a thick layer of try hard. Every time someone uses one of those words/phrases, I picture the poster as a middle school student sitting with his eyes three inches away from the screen grinning ear to ear while hitting refresh and waiting for that fateful response of "golly, you're so smart!".

Normally I'm utterly heartless, but I have to say this is a commendable endeavor and I hope many take part.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1327908572' post='2910453'] All we need now is for Jonathon brookbank to show up. [/quote] I've been thinking the same thing since this all started.

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1327898362' post='2910211'] Denied. Ask again and we will declare war on you. [/quote] [quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1327898318' post='2910210'] I'd like to give Rok the opportunity to downgrade their alliance status and become our protectorate, but I'll be damned if I can figure out who to make the offer to. [/quote] Done. Also, first you guys destroy yourselves before we get the chance, then your going to declare on us before we can hit you too? Need to stop stealing our thunder man.

I'd like to give Rok the opportunity to downgrade their alliance status and become our protectorate, but I'll be damned if I can figure out who to make the offer to.