lamuella Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) How Not To Get Raided / Rolled A helpful guide to in-game politics and survival from your friends in the Goon Order of Oppression, Negligence and Sadism. This is a document written to be posted in the Open World RP Forum, but the regular posters in the Open World Forum are not its target audience. They have, in the main, learned most of what this post seeks to teach. Rather, it is being posted here so that it can be linked to, at once introducing small nations to some of Planet Bob's more painful facts, and introducing them to the prime venue of discussion between alliances in the game, as well as introducing small alliances to CN diplomacy and how to make it work for them. If you are reading this, and you are a regular, I invite you to critique it and I will happily incorporate changes (with the usual if-I-agree-with-them caveat). Please note that this isn't a justification of (nor for obvious reasons a condemnation of) tech raiding. It is, I hope, neutral on the morality or otherwise of such a thing. Instead, it seeks to deal with the reality of how to get out of being raided with your nation (or on a broader scale your alliance) mostly intact. 1. How not to get raided. So, you're a new nation. You've signed up for the game, worked out roughly how infra and tech work, bought some soldiers, maybe made some trade deals. You've even taken that most momentous step and decided that war should be an option for your people. Well done. You're already doing around half of what every player does every day. The other half, though, has a steeper learning curve. I'll describe the scene to you. You may already know it. You may be experiencing it right now. You're happily pottering along with your nation, and suddenly someone declares war on you. They attack your nation, kill your soldiers, steal technology, land, and money from your nation. When you look for a reason for the war you see the following words: "Tech raid, PM for peace" You send your PM and the person who attacked you (someone you don't know, have never met, and certainly didn't pick a fight with) replies telling you that he'll offer peace only if you don't counterattack, and that if you do attack it won't go well for you. You've been, or you're being, tech raided. Come to the Open World RP forum any day of the week and on the first page there will probably be a discussion about tech raiding. This discussion will change based on the date, the people involved, and the current political climate, but in general the status of any argument is this: Tech raiding happens. Alliances fall into four groups: those who hate tech raiding and loudly speak out against it; those who do not condone it but will not speak on the policies of other alliances; those who allow but do not encourage it, and those who actively encourage it. Where the consensus rests will vary. All you need to know for the moment is that it happens, and is one of the risks that unaligned or underaligned nations (I'll explain this term in more detail later) run. The purpose of this guide is twofold. First to explain how to cope when this happens. Second, to explain how you can stop it happening again. If you've just been raided, and the raid is still ongoing, here are some ideas as to how to get the raid to stop as quickly and as inexpensively as possible. These are, I should point out, my advice. Others would disagree. Get a variety of viewpoints from people with different opinions so you know the available options. Remain calm and understand what is at stake. I mean this in a literal and neutral way. Remember what a war can destroy or steal (technology, soldiers, money, land), and what it cannot (your nation, your trades, your improvements). A tech raid cannot force you to leave the game, it cannot ruin your trade-set. It can however destroy a lot of what you have built. The remainder of the tips in this section are ways to minimize this loss and destruction, so you can rebuild quicker afterwards. Evaluate your opponent. Not all raiders are the same. Some people raid just for technology. Some raid for war practice. Some want a bit of both. It's not always possible to immediately tell one from another, and their motivations and responses may be different. A pure tech raider will only take actions that will result in him gaining your money/tech/land, or ones that will make it easier for him to do so. Thus, a pure tech raider is most likely to launch ground attacks against you rather than destroy your airforce or bombard you with missiles. Someone looking for a straightforward war will hit you with everything. They probably also want your tech, but what they are really looking for is a fight. You should also be looking your opponent's nation info screen. How large is their nation compared to yours? What troops do they have compared to you? Very crucially, are they a member of an alliance, and how big is that alliance? An alliance with a lot of members will probably provide more support to their raiders than a smaller one, by virtue of having more members in your range. A nation with no alliance will be significantly less likely to have backup. The reason for this evaluation is to ask yourself what will happen if you fight back versus what will happen if you do not. Decide on a course of action. I am neither going to tell you to fight back or tell you not to, because it is your choice, and because the best course of action is different when facing different opponents. What I will tell you is that if you are being tech raided, and you choose to fight back, you should try to ensure you will do nontrivial damage. When you fight back, the tech raider will switch from just trying to take back tech to trying to hurt you. It is at this point that they are more likely to bring in friends. Conversely, someone trying to hurt you will try to hurt you at full strength from the start. Fighting back will at worst do nothing but make them angry and at best diminish their attempt to hurt you. If you are fighting back, fight hard, and learn from the experience. This might be the first war you've been in, and you need to learn what attacks work well and what attacks do not. This is not the guide for that, but look up if you can the best way to handle attacks at update, deployment, and other methods. The goal of fighting back is to hurt your opponent enough that they do not wish to redeclare. It runs the risk of hurting your opponent enough that they get angry and redeclare so they can hurt you more. It is a two edged sword, and the better at war you are the less likely it is to cut you. If you are not fighting back, think of ways to get out of the war or stop a re-declaration. You always have the ability to message the nation attacking you, but this ability should be used with caution. Don't ask them why they are attacking you. It's almost certain it's not personal and it really doesn't matter that much. Don't get angry, they will only laugh. Don't make threats, they will either not believe you (and laugh) or believe you (and make sure you are in no shape to follow up). Some tech raiders only raid the inactive and will peace out if they know you are awake. Some do not care. If the worst comes to the worst and the war goes to the end, be on at update on the day it expires. If nothing else you can hop into peacemode and start rebuilding. Start looking around for an alliance. This will come up in the next section, but the most surefire way not to be tech raided is to be in a proper, recognized alliance. Note that while this is a good way not to be tech raided in future, it is NOT an automatic out from your current war. While alliances' policies on this differ, most alliances will not accept a nation who is at war, and those that do will in general expect their new members to finish up whatever trouble they are in when they join. There have been cases of alliances pulling strings to get new members out of wars, but these are the exception rather than the rule. Please also note the particular and specific use of the word "recognized" there. Having an Alliance name rather than "none" isn't the same as being in an alliance other people recognize. There are those in the game who do not recognize alliances below a certain size, or without diplomatic ties. When shopping for a prospective alliance, check out how many members they have, take a look at Bob Janova's fantastic treaty compendium to see what diplomatic links they have. Some alliances differ on who they recognize on the basis of the size of the alliance in question. It is from here that the concept of 'underalignment' most frequently springs: a small alliance can be considered by some to be no alliance at all. Being raided isn't fun. Many people on a broader level hate the existence of raiding. Groups in the past have opposed raiding with words, weapons, and money, with differing degrees of success. However, raiding is like any perceived social problem: it would be nice to wish it away, but until it goes, you should know how to deal with it. 2. How not to get rolled. So, you're a small alliance. Your membership numbers anywhere from the low single digits to the mid-teens. You have an IRC channel and a forum, you've appointed an emperor and a foreign minister, and you even have a spam forum with one of those "let's count to 10,000,000" threads in it. Sounds like fun. You're well on your way to being an active part of the broader game. However, there are some details you need to sort out in order to be part of the political reality of CN as it exists. Once more, I'll set the scene: You're chattering away on IRC, wondering whether it's time yet to post your Declaration Of Existence on the OWF, when one of your members comes to you with a problem. He's just been tech raided by someone from an alliance 10 times your size. Again, this is a guide with a twofold purpose. How to deal with this incident, and how to stop future incidents. These two things work in concert. The things that solve this incident may well be the things that put you off the raiders' radar in future. As before, this is my advice. It may not hold true for everyone. Others may tell you the exact opposite, but having been in a small alliance (a hated small alliance, I might add), this is how I would go about fixing this problem and roll-proofing my alliance. Remain calm and get a handle on the situation. Look at things with an appraising eye. This is hard, but emotion is not your friend here. When examining the situation, you need to constantly be looking at the cost and the benefit of any given attitude and action. Know your enemy. Know who their allies are, who they are treatied with. Read their charter, see if they allow tech raiding and under what circumstances. Talk to the attacking alliance. Tone is very important here. There are a number of things you need to discover from your conversation. First, whether the attacker is an actual member of the alliance. Second, whether the attack was sanctioned. This may not be a yes or no question. Attacks may be unsanctioned and forbidden, unsanctioned but allowed, or directed by leadership. There are certainly further shades of grey in this picture. Depending on the alliance there may be a distinction between being attacked by an alliance member and being attacked by the alliance itself. If the attack is unsanctioned and unallowed, the alliance may take care of it for you. If the attack is unsanctioned but not forbidden, the alliance likely distinguishes between raids and wars. This is important to know, as it can determine how you act next. It's also important to note whether or not the attack itself falls under their raid criteria. Wait to see what the alliance does. Don't assume an attack is sanctioned until they have said it is or otherwise indicated that it is. If the attacker is a ghost, or if the attack is unsanctioned, the alliance will in all likelihood help you out with solving your problem, either by ordering their guy to peace out, or by stomping the ghost. If the attack is unsanctioned but allowed, you should look at whether the alliance offers their raiding members battle support. In most cases they do not. If they do not, you have every right to unleash whatever hell you can against the attacker. Note that this is not the same as attacking the alliance. Most tech raiding alliances understand full well that if you bite off more than you can chew there are consequences. If the attack is a sanctioned and endorsed act of war, then this is a different thing altogether. It may seem strange to you to distinguish between a raid and an act of alliance wide war, but many alliances make this distinction. If the alliance attacked you on purpose, find out what they want One of the most important things for you to find out is both why your member is being attacked and how you can make the attacks stop. If they do not recognize your alliance, find out under what circumstances they would. Weigh up whether what they want is something you can live with or not. Consider the cost of "Honor". This next part may be hard, but something you will need to bear in mind is that this is not the correct place to look at things in terms of ethics or honor, and certainly not the place to let your temper get the better of you. There will be the temptation in this circumstance to say "damn the torpedoes", and go in guns blazing against your enemy. 90% of the time you try this, you will get beaten up. Your thread about this in the Alliance Announcements forum will draw an awful lot of support, almost none of which will be military or financial in nature. What you need to decide is whether it's more important to show how angry you are about things or to find a solution to the situation. If nothing else, consider this: if the alliance you are up against allows tech raiding, and they are larger than you, all you are doing by going at them all guns blazing is giving them more targets and a higher activity level. Attacking them will likely not discourage them at all. Get Protected. If large alliances do support your cause, this would be a suitable time to talk to one of them about granting you a protectorate. An alliance that has the protection of a larger alliance is exponentially less likely to be attacked by raiders than one that does not have such protection, and much more likely to do well in any war or raid that does occur. There are other benefits of a protectorate as well. Having a protectorate, or any other treaty, is the first step a small alliance takes towards full diplomatic interaction with the world. It will lead you into contact with other alliances, into greater opportunities for trade, into essentially being part of our shared universe. One large advantage of gaining a protector in this circumstance is that it can lead to your protector negotiating with the attacking alliance on your behalf, meaning your negotiations will be from a greater position of power. If you have to fight, fight well. if the raid has to become a war, pursue it with full strength and enthusiasm. Your enemy will pursue their part with the same strength. Be aware that I am stressing the words "has to". Not all raiding actions have to develop into a war. Remember also that the alliance attacking you does not necessarily have the same value system as you. You might think making the war unprofitable for them will stop them raiding, but their motivation might not be in profit so much as it is in having fun or in causing grief. Be careful you don't play into their hands. If you are looking for a bright side, think of this as a way to see how well your alliance functions at the sharp end, and who you can really depend on. If you come out of this, you will come out with a better sense of who you are and how the game works. Not every alliance raids, and not every alliance raids in the same way. The alliance you are facing will change how you should act in any given circumstance, but equally the stance you take will change the outcome. A raid gone wrong can be sorted out and put in the past much more easily and simply than a full-blown alliance war. Ultimately this guide is about your options, and trying to guide you to the right decision for your group. EDIT - A parallel discussion talking about how to stop raiding happening at all has started in this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76464 Edited December 22, 2009 by Lamuella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilien Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I came expecting sarcasm and wit and instead found an excellent guide. Someone should sticky this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Autumn Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I might recommend a slight alteration to the formatting to make it a tad easier to read - otherwise, very handy, especially in light of the current trends. Nicely done and time well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeJeezy Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Well, you know you're a few days late there Lamuella. )): GOONS )): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamuella Posted December 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Well, you know you're a few days late there Lamuella. I'm sorry, has tech raiding ceased to exist and nobody told me about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believland Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I'm honestly surprised. I thought that'd you be taking shots at RLMMO and ZDP, yet I found none. Good guide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dajobo Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I don't think it's ever too late for a good informative guide and second Vilien, this deserves a sticky imo. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 A good read that sets out a good plan. Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime minister Johns Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) I will give credit where credit is due and this is quite a reasonable guide. This needs to be stickied. Perhaps a shorter version could be written that will fit in a PM to let a newbie know what is going on. Because tech raiding seems to be something unique to CN and they may not of heard about it before. This might prevent a lot of unnecessary drama that can easily be avoided. And it might also encourage more people to join an alliance. Edited December 21, 2009 by Prime minister Johns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzle Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Beautiful guide from a beautiful sasquatch in hiding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChimpMasterFlash Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Great post. Most alliances see us after something has hit the fan and have not realized that we are simply easy to work with. Great guide Lam! Edited December 21, 2009 by ChimpMasterFlash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolfe2015 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I read for the most part the entire thing, but I did find your mentioning that alliances don't generally (the exception to the rule) help their new members/applicants get out of wars. Is this true? I was of the impression it wasn't, but I've never really detailed an alliance's raid process/application system. In my opinion, at least how I'd handle things, is anyone being raided who wishes to join may use our applicant AA, message their attacker to receive peace. If it is not found, then the nation attacking them is committing a war against a protected nation of my alliance and we'd step in, should the nation have properly filed an application and gone about this all correctly. Am I of a limited player base in this approach to things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamuella Posted December 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I think you misunderstood. My point was that few alliances accept members who are in a war at the point of their application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Taylor Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 You disappointed me, but this is almost as good (in a different way) as what I was hoping for. I expect this to be linked to on a weekly basis by witty posters in the OWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolfe2015 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I think you misunderstood. My point was that few alliances accept members who are in a war at the point of their application. Ah ok, simple mistake then, thanks for the clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uralica Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Wow. Awesome job, Lamuella I haven't found anything in there that I haven't already seen to be true through experience. This should indeed be stickied. Some newbie may come across this and learn something that saves their nation or alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Another vote to be stickied. Very detailed, and well thought-out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcades057 Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Lamuella, I noticed based on your avatar that you have trimmed your beard. Why is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffyewunga Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 You could have shortened this in to 1 sentance. The GOONS AA ceasing to exsist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcades057 Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 You could have shortened this in to 1 sentance. The GOONS AA ceasing to exsist That would make a lot of people unhappy were it to happen. Lamuella and his now clipped neckbeard are not in the business of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 You could have shortened this in to 1 sentance. The GOONS AA ceasing to exsist So, Lamuella writes a guide that helps out new players and you want GOONS to disband? And you're in USN and you're saying this? Really? You're a funny guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Craig Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 I'd suggest moving the short answers to the top of each section (bolded, highlighted, something), and the more verbose explanations downward. It's pretty long-winded for a guide that says, "Don't whine, don't be belligerent, join an alliance, get protection." I think it's so long that the primary audience won't have the patience to read it. With that said, I think it's a well-crafted guide -- entertaining and informative. I actually read the whole thing. -Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 You could have shortened this in to 1 sentance. The GOONS AA ceasing to exsist I am quite honestly flattered that you attribute the entirety of raiding in CN to GOONS, but I must admit that we do get some help here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort Pitt Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 There are many people who should be reading this, many. Good read, sums up how to lead an alliance basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamuella Posted December 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 I'd suggest moving the short answers to the top of each section (bolded, highlighted, something), and the more verbose explanations downward. It's pretty long-winded for a guide that says, "Don't whine, don't be belligerent, join an alliance, get protection." I think it's so long that the primary audience won't have the patience to read it.With that said, I think it's a well-crafted guide -- entertaining and informative. I actually read the whole thing. -Craig I've made some edits to make it less of a Wall Of Text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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