Ultimatum to Sparta

[Rebel Virginia]

Now I can't tell if you are still playing around with RV's joke or are serious. I would assume that you have diverted from the joke, but the tone still sounds like that of the original joke. I'd just like a quick clarification.

He is a Triumvirate of the League. I would hope that you would show some respect to the leaders of established alliances.

I'm going to go ahead and say it. After this post only Ephors/Regent/Kings of Sparta are the only Spartans allowed to post in this topic. Any Spartan failing to agree will face internal consequences. (sounds like ODN of old for those old enough to remember)

Edit-Missed portion of order.

What's this? A gag order? Oh Sparta, you really are the gift that keeps on giving.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[mhawk]

This whole thing is pretty special.

[Nelchael]

Despite the serious failures of communication that have occurred here, it was abundantly clear to all involved parties that Magicalbricks remains Nueva Vida's senator regardless of his AA, and he shall remain our senator until the senate resets. That is an undisputed de facto obligation of enabling senate voting and allowing your alliance to elect you.

A clear failure to communicate has occurred, but there was no malice in Magiclbricks' actions, and after reviewing the screenshots and speaking with Magicalbricks, NV sees only a misunderstanding, bad communication, and an overreaction.

I tried to contact the involved parties prior to posting this, but if you feel left out of the discussion, please contact me.

To make this clear:

• Magicalbricks remains NV's senator
  
• If MHA or Sparta requires a blue nation sanctioned, they must go through the govt that elected the senator
  
• As Emperor of Nueva Vida, I would not have approved this sanction, so it shall be lifted and I shall attempt to rectify the situation
  
• Although it was an overreaction, Rebel Virginia should have expected a sanction and should understand why he was labelled a rogue. RV deserves no sympathy or compensation, and I don't see him requesting it
  
• Two of RV's trade partners were direct allies of NV, and one was an indirect ally
  
• Because MB is our senator, I will work with Rebel Virginia's trade partners to find an acceptable solution
  

I apologize to both the innocent parties and our allies on the blue team for this matter. If you have any concerns regarding this, please contact me directly.

[Comrade Cata]

Now I can't tell if you are still playing around with RV's joke or are serious. I would assume that you have diverted from the joke, but the tone still sounds like that of the original joke. I'd just like a quick clarification.

I left the Mushroom Kingdom, which I had been a member of for 217 days, after giving some personal reasons for leaving, to join this alliance, and have accepted a leadership position in it. I am currently and personally engaged at war with the nation that aggressively attacked our emperor. Does this sound like a "joke" to you? I assure you that we have the capability to pull through this one way or another. Do not underestimate the League.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Comrade Cata

[Sal Paradise]

I'm going to go ahead and say it. After this post only Ephors/Regent/Kings of Sparta are the only Spartans allowed to post in this topic. Any Spartan failing to agree will face internal consequences. (sounds like ODN of old for those old enough to remember)

For those not old enough to remember that, all of this is like GGA on a good day.

[BamaBuc]

I think I can sum it all up very nicely, since some people don't seem to get it.

You don't sanction non-nuclear rogues.

You just don't. That's how it's always been done, and with good reason. It's not worth harming 5 uninvolved nations (for all you know, one of them could be on day 19 of a backcollect) just because one tiny nation with no nukes hit you. So have 3 more nations roll him or something. But a sanction? Come on. It's not "because he's RV" or "because I thought his stunt was funny". You just don't sanction non-nuclear rogues. All the MHA/NV/Blue/Aqua/Sparta/lolwut Senator stuff aside, that alone is a bad precedent.

-Bama

Edited June 6, 2009 by BamaBuc

[WarriorConcept]

I think I can sum it all up very nicely, since some people don't seem to get it.

You don't sanction non-nuclear rogues.

You just don't. That's how it's always been done, and with good reason. It's not worth harming 5 uninvolved nations (for all you know, one of them could be on day 19 of a backcollect) just becase one tiny nation with no nukes hit you. So have 3 more nations roll him or something. But a sanction? Come on. It's not "because he's RV" or "because I thought his stunt was funny". You just don't sanction non-nuclear rogues. All the MHA/NV/Blue/Aqua/Sparta/lolwut Senator stuff aside, that alone is a bad precedent.

-Bama

It's not how it's always been done, fyi.

[BamaBuc]

It's not how it's always been done, fyi.

I'm sure there have been exceptions, but it's generally frowned upon by the community, and with good reason.

-Bama

[WarriorConcept]

I'm sure there have been exceptions, but it's generally frowned upon by the community, and with good reason.

-Bama

Actually no, as far as I can recall no one pretty much cared about it the last few years. Pretty much the senators sanctioned whomever they wanted, usually by order of their government. Whether that person was a nuke rogue or not didn't really matter. If it's a person you're fighting you use every means available.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

You're assuming Stumpy ever gets back on.

OOC: Jesus Christ I told you guys I was gonna be in New York for a week, I fly home tomorrow just chill your nuts.

IC: The Rebel Virginia card fits here. Good luck getting those reps though.

[Jgoods45]

I Sparta doesn't fix this soon, he alliances of the other trade partners effected by this should declare on Sparta for meddling in their economic interests. I bet Sparta fixes the problem then. They can't catch bad PR for too long before they try to stop it.

And we will be here to defend them.

[Chickenzilla]

Actually no, as far as I can recall no one pretty much cared about it the last few years. Pretty much the senators sanctioned whomever they wanted, usually by order of their government. Whether that person was a nuke rogue or not didn't really matter. If it's a person you're fighting you use every means available.

I was sanctioned by every color twice. Once while nuke rogueing, once while just in vox.

[BamaBuc]

Actually no, as far as I can recall no one pretty much cared about it the last few years. Pretty much the senators sanctioned whomever they wanted, usually by order of their government. Whether that person was a nuke rogue or not didn't really matter. If it's a person you're fighting you use every means available.

Whenever it's brought up on the forums (here, for example), it's frowned upon. Most senators just say "so-and-so request" or something when they sanction, so it's not immediately obvious why that person is being sanctioned. So if they never bring it here, no one raises a fuss. But that doesn't mean that the community as a whole approves of sanctions being used for non-nuke rogues, and this thread alone is pretty good evidence that most of the community does not approve. Sanctions have always been somewhat taboo when brought up here, much like first-strike nuking used to be... But with better reason, as sanctioning hurts more than just the target. It shouldn't be used lightly, and throwing it around has been frowned upon here for as long as I can remember. I'm sure sanctioning for light reasons happens more than most of us know, but when it's brought here, it's never recieved well.

-Bama

[Roadie]

And we will be here to defend them.

There's no need to, they've already decided they've had enough bad PR and are lifting the sanction.

[The Poet]

Worth reading the thread y/n

[WorkingClassRuler]

MB has already offered to remove the sanction at the earliest possibility. And MHA will decide internally what we plan to do regarding our blue team senator.

[WarriorConcept]

Whenever it's brought up on the forums (here, for example), it's frowned upon. Most senators just say "so-and-so request" or something when they sanction, so it's not immediately obvious why that person is being sanctioned. So if they never bring it here, no one raises a fuss. But that doesn't mean that the community as a whole approves of sanctions being used for non-nuke rogues, and this thread alone is pretty good evidence that most of the community does not approve. Sanctions have always been somewhat taboo when brought up here, much like first-strike nuking used to be... But with better reason, as sanctioning hurts more than just the target. It shouldn't be used lightly, and throwing it around has been frowned upon here for as long as I can remember. I'm sure sanctioning for light reasons happens more than most of us know, but when it's brought here, it's never recieved well.

-Bama

So your whole argument right now is that because the sanction was made public it's "hurr hurr moral outrage?" The community as a whole never cared who got sanctioned as long as the people doing the sanctioning had a valid reason. That's been the case for years and still remains so. The fact that you're trying to claim that because he's not using nukes that he should not be sanctioned is laughable at best, everyone uses whatever means available to them against their enemies, especially against those whom struck first. Throwing around sanctions has only been "frowned upon for trades" or whatever since...when? Only few people have ever voiced that concern and in such minor numbers I doubt you'd be able to recall enough of them to make a legitimate argument based with facts rather than this faux outrage you're crying about.

[Trinite]

I think I can sum it all up very nicely, since some people don't seem to get it.

You don't sanction non-nuclear rogues.

You just don't. That's how it's always been done, and with good reason. It's not worth harming 5 uninvolved nations (for all you know, one of them could be on day 19 of a backcollect) just because one tiny nation with no nukes hit you. So have 3 more nations roll him or something. But a sanction? Come on. It's not "because he's RV" or "because I thought his stunt was funny". You just don't sanction non-nuclear rogues. All the MHA/NV/Blue/Aqua/Sparta/lolwut Senator stuff aside, that alone is a bad precedent.

-Bama

I agree. RV generally deserves a sanction wherever he is, but the collateral damage isn't worth it. RV can be really frustrating though, and seems to have gotten himself some extra attention by being especially annoying. Still it's bad precedent. Likely hurts innocents more than the deserving. But I feel 99.9% of the outrage in this thread about RV's trade partners is faux real. Both Sparta and NV have offered to help them out if they need it.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Trinite

[Fallen Fool]

This is the best thread CN has had in months. Maybe even a year. Seriously. All it needs is a Jerdge wall of text and it goes in the Hall of Fame.

I like that one GGA thread more.

I apologise if people thing this is inappropriate due to me being an MHA member, and with hindsight, I should have discussed this issue with NV. However, because it's such a clear cut case of rogue activity that deserves a sanction, I failed to check, for which I again apologise.

Fair enough MB.

MB has already offered to remove the sanction at the earliest possibility. And MHA will decide internally what we plan to do regarding our blue team senator.

You mean Nueva Vida's Blue Team Senator right? Edited June 6, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Roadie]

Sparta is getting a lot of undeserved critism in this thread.

They're being called a despot and they're being called militarily incompetent. It's not posible to be both. The phrase 'Last weeks Hegemony is this weeks Karma is next weeks Hegemony' does not apply to Sparta. At least as best I can see. Having chosen to use a sanction instead of immediately having their nubes use RV as a training exercise is proof enough to me that they're no despot.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Roadie

[dran129]

Quick note:

Of the 38 sanctions in the game currently, only 8 of the sanctions are on nations with nukes.

[King Srqt]

So your whole argument right now is that because the sanction was made public it's "hurr hurr moral outrage?" The community as a whole never cared who got sanctioned as long as the people doing the sanctioning had a valid reason. That's been the case for years and still remains so. The fact that you're trying to claim that because he's not using nukes that he should not be sanctioned is laughable at best, everyone uses whatever means available to them against their enemies, especially against those whom struck first. Throwing around sanctions has only been "frowned upon for trades" or whatever since...when? Only few people have ever voiced that concern and in such minor numbers I doubt you'd be able to recall enough of them to make a legitimate argument based with facts rather than this faux outrage you're crying about.

Actually his argument was that when it is brought to people's attention the voice their disapproval. It is a generally frowned upon practice just like E-ZI. Lots of people were E-ZId without a word of argument because people did not know the same for sanction abuse. Read the whole thread another example that is at least a year old of a similar thread arguing this point was already linked.

Quick note:

Of the 38 sanctions in the game currently, only 8 of the sanctions are on nations with nukes.

How many are on non military rogues such as aid scammers and how many are on nations that had nukes and now do not due to the sanctions costing them trades oh master of skewed statistics?

Edited June 6, 2009 by KingSrqt

[zzzptm]

You can't remove a sanction for four days, or else I would have removed it already. I can guarantee that a precedent has been set, I have been blue team senator for months, and I have sanctioned non-nuclear rogues, I see no difference in a nuclear, and non-nuclear rogue. RV still went rogue, regardless of his use of nukes.

Good enough for me. o/ MB!

RV gets his trades back in a few days and can carry on with his original scenario.

We also learn that being flippant to a senator on your trade sphere is not the best policy: elaborate politely in response to his queries, that he might not feel justified in enacting summative judgment.

To be sure, Sparta singled out RV for the sanction. No member of NPO is being sanctioned for doing exactly what RV is doing - fighting a war with Sparta. RV drew the wars and intends to fight. Let the fight go to him and leave matters of trade and questions of roguery out of this issue. Sparta surely can deal with this nation, along with all its other wars.

[WarriorConcept]

Actually his argument was that when it is brought to people's attention the voice their disapproval. It is a generally frowned upon practice just like E-ZI. Lots of people were E-ZId without a word of argument because people did not know the same for sanction abuse. Read the whole thread another example that is at least a year old of a similar thread arguing this point was already linked.

Are you seriously trying put EZI, a practice that goes beyond an IC realm, on the same level as a sanction against a war time enemy?

Seriously?

[Roadie]

Are you seriously trying put EZI, a practice that goes beyond an IC realm, on the same level as a sanction against a war time enemy?

Seriously?

Are you deliberately misrepresenting his statement?