Woman of your word

[Experimentum]

The very last thing I would have foreseen myself doing with this evening was addressing some issue on Digiterra. I’d happily left this place behind and was exceedingly content in my retirement. Yet here I find myself once more – drawn back to defend my word.

Frankly, bluntly, I’m sick to death of receiving messages from folks telling me about how once more Hime Themis has called me a liar. It’s time for that to stop. And in stopping it we’ll kill two birds with one stone.

Hime Themis, you have twice now (here and here ) posted the following:

What ever cute machinactions he may have felt were written into the Writ, I reject any such nefarious intent. I pledge that if in fact there ever was or currently is then I will find myself on the other side of a conflict with the Order.

You also carry the following in your signature on OBR’s fora:

“The worth of a person is her word and deeds.”

Do you, without equivocation, stand by what you’ve said? Setting aside the fact that your quote appears to clearly violate the oath of fealty you took mere days ago, will you here reaffirm that you will stand opposite the OBR should it be proven, definitively, that the Writ De Credo was not what it appeared?

[RyanGDI]

Interesting.

[Hime Themis]

Good ex-Sir Ex.

I am truly sorry you feel the need to carry on your RL isues with me in this ongoing manner. The OBR is an alliance of honour and good intentions. Should you have desire to impute more than existed to a cutesy wording in the Writ de Credo I feel sad for you. You too were once a character of honour and strong morality, I am sad to see you having fallen so far. I have to give you credit for the lovely set up you worked with your admittedly RL friend who obviously was not fully honest when he said he had not talked to you in months. I honour the memory of once you once were and therefore will not trade jabs with you. If you truly wish to settle any questions you may have in RL with me please feel free to contact me in private. I do not wish to share the personal issues you have in a public forum.

Respectfully

Dame Hime Themis

[Experimentum]

There are no RL issues to discuss here, Themis. To suggest so is actually offensive. As you can well see, everything presented so far has been utterly, entirely IC.

Will you reaffirm what you've posted twice now or are you simply afraid to address the matter at hand?

[Freelancer]

Good ex-Sir Ex.

I am truly sorry you feel the need to carry on your RL isues with me in this ongoing manner. The OBR is an alliance of honour and good intentions. Should you have desire to impute more than existed to a cutesy wording in the Writ de Credo I feel sad for you. You too were once a character of honour and strong morality, I am sad to see you having fallen so far. I have to give you credit for the lovely set up you worked with your admittedly RL friend who obviously was not fully honest when he said he had not talked to you in months. I honour the memory of once you once were and therefore will not trade jabs with you. If you truly wish to settle any questions you may have in RL with me please feel free to contact me in private. I do not wish to share the personal issues you have in a public forum.

Respectfully

Dame Hime Themis

So now your calling me a liar ? Just dandy, was I expecting this ? Ohh hell yea, little quicker than I thought, Sir Ex is some what preditiable when his word is called into question.

As for me not speaking to him, speaking requires another party, he refuses to answer any PM or email I send, so how was it I was not truthful.

[Tygaland]

This thread gives me that same feeling I get when I get a crossed line and hear two other people taking about things I really don't know anything about.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Tygaland

[Craven]

So now your calling me a liar ? Just dandy, was I expecting this ? Ohh hell yea, little quicker than I thought, Sir Ex is some what preditiable when his word is called into question.

As for me not speaking to him, speaking requires another party, he refuses to answer any PM or email I send, so how was it I was not truthful.

I believe that there was evidence to suggest as Dame Hime Themis mentioned whether it is the truth or not. Shortly after you posted about him, he appeared and even recreated his nation.

My personal belief on this entire matter is that it has no place in the public. A personal vendetta between two Knights has no place on these forums. I know both of you enough to know that you keep the Order at heart and there is no good that can come to the Order or yourselves from doing this here.

[Sal Paradise]

Good ex-Sir Ex.

I am truly sorry you feel the need to carry on your RL isues with me in this ongoing manner. The OBR is an alliance of honour and good intentions. Should you have desire to impute more than existed to a cutesy wording in the Writ de Credo I feel sad for you. You too were once a character of honour and strong morality, I am sad to see you having fallen so far. I have to give you credit for the lovely set up you worked with your admittedly RL friend who obviously was not fully honest when he said he had not talked to you in months. I honour the memory of once you once were and therefore will not trade jabs with you.

Previous jabs in the same post excluded I'm sure.

OK, won't trade jabs with you.. starting.... NOW!

[ChairmanHal]

Now see, I'm going to have to call a time out here.

OBR people are supposed to be elitists, pretty much insular to the point of near isolation, and take 20 minutes saying something like a participant at a SCA fair when they could take 5.

They aren't supposed to be involved in Open World drama. It just seems...like Amish people getting drunk and getting thrown out of a strip club. Throws off the balance of the Universe.

[Freelancer]

I believe that there was evidence to suggest as Dame Hime Themis mentioned whether it is the truth or not. Shortly after you posted about him, he appeared and even recreated his nation.

*Freelancer Nods*

Craven, circumstantial evidence is called that for a reason, we could go as far and say " This was a diabolical scheme by Freelancer to bring an old friend back to the game" Does that make it truth? emm that would depend on how you view the evidence.

I await my trial and face my accusers, I warn you in advance, I will hire the best mouth piece money can buy, he's The Johny Cochran of CN.

[Craven]

*Freelancer Nods*

Craven, circumstantial evidence is called that for a reason, we could go as far and say " This was a diabolical scheme by Freelancer to bring an old friend back to the game" Does that make it truth? emm that would depend on how you view the evidence.

I await my trial and face my accusers, I warn you in advance, I will hire the best mouth piece money can buy, he's The Johny Cochran of CN.

Were I any less busy at this moment, I might accept that challenge for the entertainment factor of course

I will take your words as truth and hope that we can someday have a discussion under less dramatic circumstances.

[Freelancer]

Were I any less busy at this moment, I might accept that challenge for the entertainment factor of course

I will take your words as truth and hope that we can someday have a discussion under less dramatic circumstances.

The glove wont fit, I wish you had the time, I would also find it entertaining as this thread now will take a life of its own, I wish it well and even if my old friend refuses to speak to this de-generate trouble maker, it was nice to see him again.

[astronaut jones]

Now see, I'm going to have to call a time out here.

OBR people are supposed to be elitists, pretty much insular to the point of near isolation, and take 20 minutes saying something like a participant at a SCA fair when they could take 5.

They aren't supposed to be involved in Open World drama. It just seems...like Amish people getting drunk and getting thrown out of a strip club. Throws off the balance of the Universe.

You're absolutely right.

Who gave these people computers, anyway?

[Samuel Houston]

Now see, I'm going to have to call a time out here.

OBR people are supposed to be elitists, pretty much insular to the point of near isolation, and take 20 minutes saying something like a participant at a SCA fair when they could take 5.

They aren't supposed to be involved in Open World drama. It just seems...like Amish people getting drunk and getting thrown out of a strip club. Throws off the balance of the Universe.

Wow. That was an awesome simile.

Shouldn't there be some ritual combat or something? A duel of sorts to prove that the righteous shall prevail?

[Experimentum]

All of you reading this will be interested to know that I've just been engaged in an exchange of PMs with the Themis in question. She has refused to confirm, once more, that she said precisely what we all know she did say... twice over.

Instead of the typical c&p job, I here present screenshots of the original IM discussion that took place between myself and Her Highness during the wee hours of December 7 and 8, 2006 as the Writ De Credo was being written. These logs were never included in the original "Crimes of Persuasion" thread because I felt revealing them was out of bounds at the time. Today you, Hime Themis, forced my hand. I will not continue to sit idly by while you accuse me of dishonesty.

For those of you who are unaware, "Pico" is Her Highness' RL nickname. It was impossible to conceal that fact while simultaneously preserving the veracity of the documents. You'll also notice that very small passages have been blacked out. While I feel it's become imperative to address this issue, I see no reason to unnecessarily expose RL details as Hime Themis seems intent on implying. An expletive has been altered as well.

<-- click to enlarge

<-- and so forth

So there you have it, Themis. The Queen Herself explaining in detail the Writ's "nefarious intent" as you called it – and it was present from day one. There could hardly be evidence more immune to reasonable doubt.

It's your move now. You have to choose. Were you lying to every single national ruler on Digiterra/Planet Bob when you said this:

What ever cute machinactions he may have felt were written into the Writ, I reject any such nefarious intent. I pledge that if in fact there ever was or currently is then I will find myself on the other side of a conflict with the Order.

or were you only lying to the Queen and all your fellow OBRers when you said this:

I, Hime Themis, do pledge to represent to Our Liege Lady and The Order of the Black Rose the best virtues of the Nation of Dulra at all times. So none may doubt our commitment I restate the words laid before our Liege Lady upon the acceptance of my supplication, the truth of which has never wavered. I, Hime Themis, pledge on the Word of my late father that the Daughter shall provide to her Alliance, it’s Liege Lady and members of the Court honesty, integrity, counsel, loyalty and justice.

They are mutually exclusive statements, Themis. You simply can't have it both ways.

Will you hold true to your word, abdicate your oath, and stand against the OBR as you've pledged to the entirety of this world or will you look us all in the face and admit that your word can't be trusted?

[Freelancer]

Wishing this thread the best just went out the window, I have no words that can express what I'm thinking, however this should come close.

[Blue Lightning]

OOC: This is like an episode of Frasier to me.

IC:

[Bob Janova]

The latest showing of the Black Rose Opera rolls into town.

The funny thing about all this drama is that nobody would have cared for your clever little legal tricks anyway, so you're tearing each other apart on the basis of an internal OBR word game.

[Teriethien]

Seems rather pointless.

Also,

What ever cute machinactions he may have felt were written into the Writ, I reject any such nefarious intent.

That reads to me like a statement against the intent behind the Writ's loopholes. How does it actually conflict with her oath?

[Chimaera]

The latest showing of the Black Rose Opera rolls into town.

The funny thing about all this drama is that nobody would have cared for your clever little legal tricks anyway, so you're tearing each other apart on the basis of an internal OBR word game.

Once again, Mr. Bob Janova, you say what I think.

Seriously, OBR, just stop doing this. You're making yourselves look really bad.

[Experimentum]

Seems rather pointless.

Also,

That reads to me like a statement against the intent behind the Writ's loopholes. How does it actually conflict with her oath?

In all honesty, the conflict between Themis’ oath to the OBR and Themis’ pledge to everyone else here is something of a side issue. She just happened to walk herself into that one and I’m highlighting it. I came back because I’m agitated beyond all endurance at repeatedly being called a liar by this person. Nevertheless, I’ll address your concern directly.

In every oath of fealty, whether it be the first spoken for simple acceptance into the Order or the one committed to upon reaching Knighthood, contains some manner of wording which says in effect, “I swear to defend Her Highness and the Order, no matter what, until I cease to exist on Digiterra.” Those oaths are taken extremely seriously and any action or statement that contravenes them, in any way whatsoever, calls into question the OBRers honesty while taking their oath and exposes them to the possibility of trial in The Chamber of Inquisition for lying to the Queen (otherwise known as Treason) as well as lying to all their fellow OBRers.

Themis has clearly and publicly expressed twice that there are conditions under which she would vacate her oath. You don’t get to have it both ways and be an OBRer in good standing.

As for the intent of the Writ, take another glance over those logs. From day one it was intended to deceive and manipulate those who placed enough trust in us to affix their signatures to the document. We laughed about it in fact – repeatedly. There can now be little, if any, dispute over the nature of the treaty or that Themis pledged to oppose the OBR if such could be shown.

If you still have questions, I’ll be more than happy to expound further a little later. RL, at the moment, intrudes.

[Teriethien]

Themis has clearly and publicly expressed twice that there are conditions under which she would vacate her oath. You don’t get to have it both ways and be an OBRer in good standing.

That makes sense, thanks. Making a fuss over it (even as a side issue), on the other hand, is beyond pointless.

As for the intent of the Writ, take another glance over those logs.

I understand the intent. I'm merely saying that the way I read it she said she was against such an intent; I'm assuming here that she wasn't aware of them since the Writ IIRC is older than her nation. So it makes me wonder why you would log dump on an alliance to prove something that doesn't seem to be the issue.

Then again I really have no idea what's going on so maybe I should have just quoted Tyga

[Cobalt]

That makes sense, thanks. Making a fuss over it (even as a side issue), on the other hand, is beyond pointless.

I understand the intent. I'm merely saying that the way I read it she said she was against such an intent; I'm assuming here that she wasn't aware of them since the Writ IIRC is older than her nation. So it makes me wonder why you would log dump on an alliance to prove something that doesn't seem to be the issue.

Then again I really have no idea what's going on so maybe I should have just quoted Tyga

From what I've gathered.... the issue isn't whether or not the writ was written with bad intentions (I think the bad intentions have been proven twice over at this point), its that Themis' still denies the "machinations" that have occured, and is thereby calling Experimentum a liar.

On top of that, you've got this gem;

"What ever cute machinactions he may have felt were written into the Writ, I reject any such nefarious intent. I pledge that if in fact there ever was or currently is then I will find myself on the other side of a conflict with the Order."

Lets break it down:

"What ever cute machinactions he may have felt were written into the Writ" - Stating that Experimentum believes there was intentional manipulation put into the writ.

"I reject any such nefarious intent" - Themis denies that there could have been such intentional manipulations, thereby calling Experimentum a liar.

"I pledge that if in fact there ever was or currently is then I will find myself on the other side of a conflict with the Order." - Themis then goes on to state that if there are or if there were any "cute machinations" in the Writ which were made with "nefarious intent" that she will find herself fighting against the Order. Here in lies Experimentum's second issue, that by saying that she is violating her oath to the OBR.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me...

[deth2munkies]

Wasn't the OP the same one that tried to raise a ruckus by pointing out some odd clause in the Writ a long time ago?

Wasn't that attempt to start drama just as useless as this one?

The answer to both questions: Yes.

[Alterego]

Its like watching Jerry Springer without being entertained. Much ado about nothing me thinks squire.