Homefront Declaration of Existence

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1299526585' post='2655662']
No. What I said is that Umbrella signed those terms. In good faith. And certainly didn't expect CD (or anyone else for that matter) to try and wiggle their way into a war using the worst e-lawyering ever. But feel free to misread everything: I don't want to be the one to stop you from extrapolating.
[/quote]


In good faith that what?....they would hit a treaty partner of CD whom they had no previous wars with up until this point, and CD would sit back and ignore the clause that they wrote allowing them back into the conflict in this exact instance?

[Cairna]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1299526875' post='2655665']
And I sure hope that CD don't expect to receive terms any time this side of new year's
[/quote]

I don't know if you've noticed, but every time you or someone else says this, nobody answers. I don't want to state the obvious, but it's a hint.


I'm not going to e-lawyer on the grey area of the terms. If anyone from the opposing side as questions regarding the way we see it, and why we felt we had to make this move please seek us out, or ask me to seek you out. MK, you guys have been calling us out forever the way I see it. I know you think you've got to keep up with your posts in this thread, but I don't know who you're trying to convince. You gave us no absolutely honorable option, we did what we think is right. If we burn for it, that's cool.


To all MK'ers and Umbrella'ers that will forgive us so long as they get to fight us, we'll come out, don't worry!

Edited March 7, 2011 by Cairna

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1299526132' post='2655651']
The fingerpointing in this thread is actually pretty funny.

The ONLY reason CD is back in this war is because MK and Umb decided to hit a few nations in NSO's mid ranges that cycled out of PM onto a few goons targets. Had MK or Umb decided to post a DoW when they claim they initially considered themselves at war rather than expecting people to mindread, guess what....CD would still be out of the war....had MK and Umb decided to not engage targets they were not at war with officially...guess what...CD would still be out of the war. Had MK and Umb just decided to post a blanket DOW on everyone a month ago the first time this issue arose...you guess it...CD would still be out of the war.

But instead here we are 6 weeks later still arguing over what does and does not constitute an act of war, who gets to define it, when it starts, and various other mind numbing e-lawyer hot topics, which all could have been easily avoided with a simple one line post by those declaring war saying they are actually declaring war. IF you decide to you want to be "edgy" and declare on anyone and everyone whenever you want without telling anyone, expect grey areas like this to be popping up.


Which makes it even worse than. What you are saying here, and Roq is so proudly trumpeting, is that he signed terms with an alliance allied to someone engaged on the front Umb was fighting.....allowed a term in the surrender document that will give that alliance the right to declare on anyone who hit their treaty partners down the line....and then went out and started attacking a treaty partner of the that alliance with whom they have never been at war with up to that point.

So Umb was dumb enough to start attacking NSO with full knowledge of the terms CD had, and still did not take the 10 seconds to post a DoW, thus allowing CD's re-entry into the conflict through the same terms they drafted to keep them out. I appreciate the fact they keep pointing this out for everyone.
[/quote]
I find it humorous that the ~other side~ has deemed you intellectually capable enough to lead their coalition war effort. Really goes to show the sad state of affairs amongst the Pacifican heroes and their friends.

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='Epiphanus' timestamp='1299527574' post='2655675']
I find it humorous that the ~other side~ has deemed you intellectually capable enough to lead their coalition war effort. Really goes to show the sad state of affairs amongst the Pacifican heroes and their friends.
[/quote]

Congrats on the ad hominem, I can really see this conversation going places.

Also it appears you are misinformed if you think I have sole control over the war effort on this side.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1299512900' post='2655464']
I figured that NSO "recognition of hostilities" was a ploy to bring in CD, despite the fact that took it place a long time after the actual hostilities took place and before CD surrendered.

[/quote]

What's really strange is the fact that it was all for 7 wars when the time came. Don't exactly see how it's worth it for either CD or the alliances they are "aiding".

[Chief Savage Man]

We're going to be such good friends.

[NLights]

This war just keeps on giving.

[Fyfe XIV]

Add me to the list of illiterates who view this as a breach of terms.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1299526585' post='2655662']
No. What I said is that Umbrella signed those terms. In good faith. And certainly didn't expect CD (or anyone else for that matter) to try and wiggle their way into a war using the worst e-lawyering ever. But feel free to misread everything: I don't want to be the one to stop you from extrapolating.
[/quote]
When you're signing a treaty at gunpoint (which all surrender treaties are), then expect the other side to look for any loophole you leave in the treaty.

Hey, Poison Clan completely ignored their NAP with TPF in Karma. You should consider yourselves fortunate that Carpe Diem showed more finesse than they did.

[Vladimir Nikanor]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1299481352' post='2655195']
waht is this i don't even-
[/quote]
I believe my response could summed up using this man's post.

Interesting flag as well. Very....[size="2"]very....[/size][size="1"]interesting[/size]

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1299530555' post='2655712']
Add me to the list of illiterates who view this as a breach of terms.
[/quote]

You're on ~the list~

[Jake Liebenow]

Dearest MK, if you wanted CD out of the war, you'd have declared war, and not went "HAHAHAHAHAHA I'MMA HIT NSO GUISE AND THEY WON'T DO ENNEEEETHIIIIING!" Just admit the fact that you had a major internal blunder, and you can suffer the consequences.

Way to be, MK.

[KainIIIC]

So let's get this straight. Whenever MK decided to recognize all alliances that they had DoWed without posting any DoW thread (ML, Invicta, Legion, CoJ, etc.), NSO was not on that list. Almost two weeks later, when we asked Ardus which alliances MK were engaged at war with, NSO was [i]specifically cited and clarified[/i] as [b]NOT[/b] being at war with MK. Then when MK continues to launch attacks against NSO nations (as well as Umbrella attacks), we decided to officially recognize these hostilities.

Sorry MK, you can't claim that you were never at war with us for weeks, then come back later and say "actually, we ARE at war with you, but we just didn't want to tell". Reality doesn't work that way.

Edited March 7, 2011 by KainIIIC

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1299533952' post='2655749']
Dearest MK, if you wanted CD out of the war, you'd have declared war, and not went "HAHAHAHAHAHA I'MMA HIT NSO GUISE AND THEY WON'T DO ENNEEEETHIIIIING!" Just admit the fact that you had a major internal blunder, and you can suffer the consequences.

Way to be, MK.
[/quote]

It seems NSO did ask MK gov of these actions and MK said it was war and not rogue actions. So it doesn't look like a blunder to me.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Sir Keshav IV

[Jake Liebenow]

EDIT: You changed your quote. Jerk.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Jake Liebenow

[Sulmar]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' timestamp='1299523067' post='2655587']
Vice versa




So, NSO can decide when it recognize an attack as a war, but DH can't?

I thought that the entire meaning of the oh so famous Moldavi Doctrine was that it's any alliance's right to decide over these matters themselves?

So, the case here is that we first recognized your attack on GOONS as an attack on the entire DH. Then after this you delayed your response to after CD was out of terms. To use the good old pre-school logic: We did it first, so we are right. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2sdGmbLNwY]Therefore, according to NSO logic, your attack on GOONS was an attack on us all.[/url]
[/quote]
Well first, the Moldavi Doctrine is really not about recognizing DoWs or anything, just that alliances have the right to do what they want, in essence. That does not mean that what they do is right, however.

Anyways, extending your logic further, since DH and NSO are both allowed to interpret attacks different ways, can't CD do the same thing?

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1299534118' post='2655755']
It seems NSO did ask MK gov of these actions and MK said it was war and not rogue actions. So it doesn't look like a blunder to me.
[/quote]

So I don't see the issue in recognizing this as an aggressive war. I really don't. Undeclared, yes, but after their attack on NPO, since when did the rules matter?

[Sulmar]

Also, why exactly are DH complaining about shady e-lawyering again? Did you or did you not just attack NPO under little to no CB? You can't suddenly have normal CN conventions on our side when you won't follow them yourself.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Sulmar

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1299534118' post='2655755']
It seems NSO did ask MK gov of these actions and MK said it was war and not rogue actions. So it doesn't look like a blunder to me.
[/quote]

No, that conversation was clarified by MK as MK NOT being at war with NSO, and he said that pretty definitively. Yes there were plenty of (admitted) shenanigans beforehand, but basically that conversation ended with the confirmation in mind that MK was not at war with us... until they started launching more wars against us.

[SpiderJerusalem]

[quote name='Sulmar' timestamp='1299534554' post='2655763']
Anyways, extending your logic further, since DH and NSO are both allowed to interpret attacks different ways, can't CD do the same thing?
[/quote]

My dear man, we are not debating if they can do it or not. Of course they can. We are debating if they are breaking terms or not

If you use your logic however, we can extend it even further, into the realms of other terms. And with that logic, you can't impose terms on alliances, since they can themselves choose what they want. And we should also remove all treaties, since you can choose if you want to follow them or no...

Wait, we may be onto something good here

brb

[Sardonic]

The amount of twisting from people is disgusting. Everybody knew what the surrender term implied. Trying to pick it apart in some pedantic exercise will get none of you anywhere. Even if you didn't violate the letter of the term, you violated the spirit (what everybody knew it meant, no entry on any aspect of the NPO front, and this is an aspect of it), and will be punished for it. Nobody important on the side that matters is buying that this wasn't a violation.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Sardonic

[Floyd]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1299534093' post='2655753']
So let's get this straight. Whenever MK decided to recognize all alliances that they had DoWed without posting any DoW thread (ML, Invicta, Legion, CoJ, etc.), NSO was not on that list. Almost two weeks later, when we asked Ardus which alliances MK were engaged at war with, NSO was [i]specifically cited and clarified[/i] as [b]NOT[/b] being at war with NSO. Then when MK continues to launch attacks against NSO nations (as well as Umbrella attacks), we decided to officially recognize these hostilities.

Sorry MK, you can't claim that you were never at war with us for weeks, then come back later and say "actually, we ARE at war with you, but we just didn't want to tell". Reality doesn't work that way.
[/quote]

I just wanted to poke fun at this... I would hope that NSO was not at war with NSO. Maybe next time you should ask if MK is at war with NSO, you might get a more helpful answer. Anyway Crushtania posted a couple pages back about this issue and said that at least he saw it as a breach of terms and that the other two triumvirates would decide later.

[quote name='Crushtania']
Unless CD didn't even read what they were signing, this is very poor form at the very least. I definitely agree it's a breach of terms. My two other colleagues will confer as to whether it is as well.

Quite frankly, if CD were genuine in their overtures of diplomacy I would have been more than open to discuss their re-entry under the purview of the signed peace agreement. But as it turns out...they didn't.
[/quote]

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299539198' post='2655858']
The amount of twisting from people is disgusting. Everybody knew what the surrender term implied. Trying to pick it apart in some pedantic exercise will get none of you anywhere. Even if you didn't violate the letter of the term, you violated the spirit (what everybody knew it meant, no entry on any aspect of the NPO front, and this is an aspect of it), and will be punished for it. Nobody important on the side that matters is buying that this wasn't a violation.
[/quote]

Eh, violating the spirit? I thought it was made pretty clear by both parties involved in peace negotiations that all existing chains in the existing conflict(s) would be null, however if any of the signatories' allies were to be attacked (like what MK and Umbrella did to us), that they would be allowed to come to their defense. That's what 'everybody knew what the surrender term implied', so I don't know how one could be 'twisting' what both the letter and spirit said (as displayed to everyone by the peace negotiators on both sides).

Although, I wonder what 'spirit reps' will look like in the future, a vodka review?

[Thrash]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299539198' post='2655858']
and will be punished for it.
[/quote]

Why must everything be about punishment all the time with you lot?

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='King Chill I' timestamp='1299511256' post='2655447']
Heft stop trying so hard you gonna blow an O ring. No one on our side gives an airborne intercourse about how you guys see this.

Ahhh, i can almost smell the sweet perfume of PZI that has for so long been absent from our air (although will settle for all their tech too).
[/quote]
Classy.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that, all arguments aside, CD probably knew that they'd catch hell for this. They did it anyway, so they're probably prepared to deal with the ramifications.

-Bama