Joint Justitia - GOONS Announcement

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297289258' post='2627271']
Although far more coherent than the rebel you're equally unpersuasive (largely for the same reasons). Peace mode is a legitimate wartime practice but financial aid isn't, yessir!
[/quote]
Awww, SW, I'm sorry. Your boys are the ones that goonrushed the DoW with cheap shots, now I can't be held responsible for the necessary retorts. Aid is one thing, being completely unprepared is another altogether. GOONS has been made soft with the ease of techraiding. It's just good news for you that your low tier is useful to MK, and don't you forget it.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Schattenmann

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297289709' post='2627279']
Awww, SW, I'm sorry. Your boys are the ones that goonrushed the DoW with cheap shots, now I can't be held responsible for the necessary retorts. Aid is one thing, being completely unprepared is another altogether. GOONS has been made soft with the ease of techraiding. It's just good news for you that your low tier is useful to MK, and don't you forget it.
[/quote]

Oh please, you love the attention. Revel in it while you have the chance (before this all blows over and you guys again fall off).

Do forgive me for dismissing the rest of your missive. It's not any more cogent than the last time you said it.

Edited February 9, 2011 by SirWilliam

[Locke]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297274921' post='2627113']
GOONS: 273

NPO: 429
Legion: 240
NSO: 81
TPF: 71
ASU: 68
NAC: 44
TLR: 38
Invicta: 33
Olympus: 33
CoJ: 17
Sanitarium: 9
64Digits: 7
COMBINED: 1070

1070 to 273, or about 4 to 1.
[/quote]
And how many of those are engaged on you? You can't complain about being dog-piled and about having empty slots at the same time.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297295922' post='2627389']
And how many of those are engaged on you? You can't complain about being dog-piled and about having empty slots at the same time.
[/quote]

If you'll review my prior posts in this thread - including the one you quoted - you'll notice that I was pointing out that we've done well for ourselves despite the odds, not that I was complaining about them. For that matter I haven't even said a word about empty slots.

I'm not sure what you're going on about but it's not at all relevant to anything I've said.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1297277967' post='2627142']
Everyone on your side has the exact same debate "technique" and it's really old: Cherry pick pieces of posts that you can twist around to fit whatever point you're trying to make, ignore anything that disputes that point, make nonsensical claims to distract people from the fact that you're full of crap. Get a new gimmick, this one sucks.[/quote]

I'm not everyone and only speak for myself, but i seriously need to give here a break because that statement of yours is exactly like what 99% of the GOONS posters do on a daily basis. You know the saying of when you point a finger theres always 3 poointing back at you

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297281917' post='2627171']
"The odds aren't that massive." "We've been outnumbered 4 to 1." "I SAID THEY'RE NOT MASSIVE. I'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE AGAINST BIGGER ODDS." Please, you are far from convincing.[/quote]

Yeah because ive always been at NPO and never experienced beat downs before [/sarcasm] seriously stop being a muppet.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1297283661' post='2627193']
Hahaha....."disciplined soldier".
<snip>[/quote]

Haha, nope i got the message to go in peacemode hours before the war and ever since the 5 day cool down period, ive been regulary requesting to leave peacemode because im bored and want to fight. Every war ive been in i have fought since day one whether its the winning side or losing side, instead of acting like a muppet why dont you just run along and spend daddy's money and let the mature people talk

Edited February 10, 2011 by the rebel

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1297297480' post='2627415']
Yeah because ive always been at NPO and never experienced beat downs before [/sarcasm] seriously stop being a muppet.
[/quote]

Your past has little bearing on my point (are we really going to go in circles here about tangential details?).

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297290747' post='2627293']
Oh please, you love the attention. Revel in it while you have the chance (before this all blows over and you guys again fall off).[/quote]
Haha, we cannot have any attention that is not given to us. Dismiss us, the Cult of Justitia with 25 pages of irrelevency, too irrlevent, in fact, to ignore.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297298798' post='2627445']
too irrlevent, in fact, to ignore.
[/quote]

Where have I heard that before? [img]http://msvarchive.com/img/smilies/smiley-haw.gif[/img]

[Locke]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297296657' post='2627403']
If you'll review my prior posts in this thread - including the one you quoted - you'll notice that I was pointing out that we've done well for ourselves despite the odds, not that I was complaining about them. For that matter I haven't even said a word about empty slots.

I'm not sure what you're going on about but it's not at all relevant to anything I've said.
[/quote]
My point was that you aren't facing odds. And I know you're smarter than that, I know you read these forums. Hell, Beefstupid had a whole thread asking to fill his slots [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97865&view=findpost&p=2608512"]which you posted in[/url].

It's relevant because you're pretending that you're under some overwhelming weight of numbers, which just isn't the case, and you know it.

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297274921' post='2627113']
The numbers here don't back your claim. The combined lower ranks of the 13 we're at war with outnumber our own.

And we wouldn't have it any other way.

EDIT: The numbers of those at 30k NS and below (an informal benchmark):

GOONS: 273

NPO: 429
Legion: 240
NSO: 81
TPF: 71
ASU: 68
NAC: 44
TLR: 38
Invicta: 33
Olympus: 33
CoJ: 17
Sanitarium: 9
64Digits: 7
COMBINED: 1070

1070 to 273, or about 4 to 1.

You were saying?




[/quote]


I have been waiting for your side to toss some sort of erroneous numbers out like this for a while and I am surprised it took this long.

Now lets look at what actually did happen with the wars declared on you shall we.

First off the numbers you are using are current, after most people are through a few rounds of wars. Sorry but it does not work that way. You have to go back to the day the wars were declared. Obviously there are a hell of a lot more nations below 30 k now then there were 2 weeks ago.


2nd, you decided to declare on NPO, not the other way around. SO you do not get to then use their low tier numbers in a defense of you getting bandwaggoned. You had a real simple way of not being at war with the 400 + NPO nations in the low tiers, just don't declare on them. THis logic is also beyond mundane since it also does not consider that MK and FAN also hit NPO in these ranges, they were in mass anarchy, and could not counter you. So by the same logic Legion is currently engaged in an even one on one battle with goons (240 vs 260 nations) and there was no reason whatsoever to call in CnG (or perhaps CnG is also guilty of piling on?) So sorry the 400+ nations in NPO don't get to be added to your attempted claims of a pile on.


Now lets back up to when you actually hit NPO.


I had started to break these numbers down in another thread but just to recap, GOONS had 287 nations at the time they hit NPO, approx 270 were under 45 k NS. GOONS accounted for nearly 45% of active wars on NPO 36 hrs after the initial decs came down. Out of those 810 available war slots on those nations NPO had filled a total of 7. That is a lot of damn slots left to fill in a tight ns range.


Now I asked the question earlier of exactly how many nations one would think they need to counter GOONS and fill those slots in order to provide a successful counter while also taking into consideration things such as activity levels in the lower tiers (since smaller nations are less active), irrelevant nations (the 20 day inactive 3ns nations on both sides), and keeping a sufficeint reserve in PM to cover staggers and the like down the line.

I have still yet to get an answer to this.

What I have heard is a lot of people with the uncanny ability to count to 12, and while I do congratulate most of you on this impressive feat, it does not prove that you were unfairly countered or "piled on".

If you want to go back and look at the above scenario and then provide me with what you think would actually constitute a "pile on" in the terms of number of nations attacking you in the context I outlined rather than simply counting the aa's that countered you then perhaps we can see if your argument about being piled on holds any weight.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297301793' post='2627510']
My point was that you aren't facing odds. And I know you're smarter than that, I know you read these forums. Hell, Beefstupid had a whole thread asking to fill his slots [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97865&view=findpost&p=2608512"]which you posted in[/url].

It's relevant because you're pretending that you're under some overwhelming weight of numbers, which just isn't the case, and you know it.
[/quote]

Then your point is poorly made and not backed up by the numbers - Those numbers indicating that the odds have very much not been in our favor, even if the enemy hasn't fully taken advantage of them.

(I should note this doesn't even comprise the entirety of my original point, which was not that we've faced staggering odds but that we've held our own and done well for ourselves despite the odds.)

[mattski133]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297289709' post='2627279']
Awww, SW, I'm sorry. Your boys are the ones that goonrushed the DoW with cheap shots, now I can't be held responsible for the necessary retorts. Aid is one thing, being completely unprepared is another altogether. GOONS has been made soft with the ease of techraiding. It's just good news for you that your low tier is useful to MK, and don't you forget it.
[/quote]

I think the average GOONS nation is comparable in preparedness to the average Hopeless Coalition nation at their respective size, it's just that most of the GOONS nations are fighting 4-6 nations, and require additional aid to do so. Part of being piled on 20 something mil to 5 mil. GOONS are just much, much better fighters in the lower tier.

The aid just makes sure the fight is a bit more even.

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1297304240' post='2627559']
I have been waiting for your side to toss some sort of erroneous numbers out like this for a while and I am surprised it took this long.

Now lets look at what actually did happen with the wars declared on you shall we.

First off the numbers you are using are current, after most people are through a few rounds of wars. Sorry but it does not work that way. You have to go back to the day the wars were declared. Obviously there are a hell of a lot more nations below 30 k now then there were 2 weeks ago.

2nd, you decided to declare on NPO, not the other way around. SO you do not get to then use their low tier numbers in a defense of you getting bandwaggoned. You had a real simple way of not being at war with the 400 + NPO nations in the low tiers, just don't declare on them. THis logic is also beyond mundane since it also does not consider that MK and FAN also hit NPO in these ranges, they were in mass anarchy, and could not counter you. So by the same logic Legion is currently engaged in an even one on one battle with goons (240 vs 260 nations) and there was no reason whatsoever to call in CnG (or perhaps CnG is also guilty of piling on?) So sorry the 400+ nations in NPO don't get to be added to your attempted claims of a pile on.

Now lets back up to when you actually hit NPO.

I had started to break these numbers down in another thread but just to recap, GOONS had 287 nations at the time they hit NPO, approx 270 were under 45 k NS. GOONS accounted for nearly 45% of active wars on NPO 36 hrs after the initial decs came down. Out of those 810 available war slots on those nations NPO had filled a total of 7. That is a lot of damn slots left to fill in a tight ns range.


Now I asked the question earlier of exactly how many nations one would think they need to counter GOONS and fill those slots in order to provide a successful counter while also taking into consideration things such as activity levels in the lower tiers (since smaller nations are less active), irrelevant nations (the 20 day inactive 3ns nations on both sides), and keeping a sufficeint reserve in PM to cover staggers and the like down the line.

I have still yet to get an answer to this.

What I have heard is a lot of people with the uncanny ability to count to 12, and while I do congratulate most of you on this impressive feat, it does not prove that you were unfairly countered or "piled on".

If you want to go back and look at the above scenario and then provide me with what you think would actually constitute a "pile on" in the terms of number of nations attacking you in the context I outlined rather than simply counting the aa's that countered you then perhaps we can see if your argument about being piled on holds any weight.
[/quote]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It's common knowledge your side put most or all of their 30k nations and above into peace mode. That is basically a fixed number. In fact, since GOONS came out swinging, our number is the one most likely to have risen by the 17 or so nations that got knocked into that range.

As far as declaring on NPO, you're going to say we can't count our wars against them, despite 45%, yes 45% using your own figure, of all wars against NPO were from GOONS? It doesn't matter at all that NPO couldn't declare on us. We still had hundreds of war slots engaged when the Hopeless Coalition got on its feet and attacked.

How many slots does it take to successfully stagger in the 30k and lower range? Probably 3 bro. At least 2. Which would be somewhere around 500-750 declarations against. I don't think you quite got there.

EDIT: and our lower ranks are more active than our upper ranks, really, to say that any GOONS nation is inactive is sort of wrong. we're no legion.

Edited February 10, 2011 by mattski133

[nippy]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1297297480' post='2627415']
Haha, nope i got the message to go in peacemode hours before the war and ever since the 5 day cool down period, ive been regulary requesting to leave peacemode because im bored and want to fight. Every war ive been in i have fought since day one whether its the winning side or losing side, instead of acting like a muppet why dont you just run along and spend daddy's money and let the mature people talk
[/quote]

the rebel: "Peace mode is a legitimate tactic. You see, it breaks down like this...I sit in peace mode and don't come out until the fight is over. That way, I don't have to take any damage whatsoever!"

Muppet?

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1297313739' post='2627691']



I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It's common knowledge your side put most or all of their 30k nations and above into peace mode. That is basically a fixed number. In fact, since GOONS came out swinging, our number is the one most likely to have risen by the 17 or so nations that got knocked into that range.

As far as declaring on NPO, you're going to say we can't count our wars against them, despite 45%, yes 45% using your own figure, of all wars against NPO were from GOONS? It doesn't matter at all that NPO couldn't declare on us. We still had hundreds of war slots engaged when the Hopeless Coalition got on its feet and attacked.

How many slots does it take to successfully stagger in the 30k and lower range? Probably 3 bro. At least 2. Which would be somewhere around 500-750 declarations against. I don't think you quite got there.

EDIT: and our lower ranks are more active than our upper ranks, really, to say that any GOONS nation is inactive is sort of wrong. we're no legion.
[/quote]

Way to go, you missed the point completely.

See what was once again being argued is that you were somehow "piled on". This has been a common theme in the GOON sympathy cry since you were countered.

Now obviously if you are claiming that you were piled on that means, by definition, you feel that a disproportionate number of nations declared on you compared to the slots you have open or nations in the ranges targeted. See it does not matter if we targeted the entire aa, or just 35 k or 45 k or whatever. If you want to claim that you are being piled on it means that in whatever range we declared we would have committed a vastly larger ammt of nations than what you had available in that range.

So the question once again comes back to one of simple math. There is obviously a benchmark somewhere as far as number of nations counter declaring on you that we have somehow surpassed thus taking this out of the realm of a counter and into the realm of a curbstomp or pile-on or whatever other terms you plan on using.


Obviously you are aware that your nation count in the ranges we targeted vastly outnumbers that of most aa's, and that there would need to a "pool" of aa's required ot hit that range, so your argument that you got countered by 12 aa's is useless (To illustrate this point...if 20 aa's the size of Sanitarium declared on you would it be a curb-stomp...of course not). So therefore the number of aa's is a straw man in relation to the argument that you are making. The real question is how many nation would you consider overkill to counter 270 nations with 100% of their slots open given the considerations I outlined in the first post.


Once you provide that answer, which will define the point where a counter changed to a pile on in your eyes, then we can compare it to what was actually sent against you to see if your claims you are being piled on are correct.


It is really not that hard a concept to grasp. Actually, by your own statement that we failed to provide enough nations to counter all of your guys, you are in fact proving the point that you are not being piled on like your alliance keeps claiming it is



As far as your activity levels I was not commenting on goons at all. In fact it is quite the opposite. When mounting a counter we would have to assume 100% activity levels for your nations since it is impossible for us to know which are and are not active, therefore we need to hit everyone (which subsequently raises the number of total nations we need). On the other hand WE need to consider the activity levels of the nations we would be sending in and compensate the gross figure for an inactivity level so that we net the correct ammt of nations for the counter.

[Biazt]

It's pretty funny to see the full spectrum of Schattenmann approaching rage mode in this thread. It builds up slowly as more alliances peace out of this war and he realizes CoJ is going to be either a pile of smoking rubble or alternatively a tech farm for us. Resorting to ad hominems, disingenuous attacks and subtle incoherence in his posts seems to be the current transition state. Bold red text is usually the last, but you never know with this joker. Quite the interesting case study.

Upset you're obviously going to lose the war? Or in Schattenmann terms: U mad?

Edited February 10, 2011 by Biazt

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1297316120' post='2627732']
Resorting to ad hominems, disingenuous attacks and subtle incoherence in his posts seems to be the current transition state.
[/quote]


Lately he's been starting with those instead of ending with them. I think your hypothesis is correct. He mad.

I won't stand here and say CoJ is irrelevant. No, any alliance that can bring me physical pain is certainly relevant. Moreso, I think a lot of the smaller alliances in this game have a real chance to be relevant and make a difference.

This is where I'd post a link to Schatt calling another alliance nearly his alliance's size irrelevant, but I'm honestly not in the mood to point out his hypocrisy right now.

[Locke]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1297316644' post='2627745']
This is where I'd post a link to Schatt calling another alliance nearly his alliance's size irrelevant, but I'm honestly not in the mood to point out his hypocrisy right now.
[/quote]
It really doesn't have anything to do with size. An alliance could have 1000 members and be irrelevant, just as a 2 man alliance could be relevant.

[the rebel]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1297315402' post='2627718']
the rebel: "Peace mode is a legitimate tactic. You see, it breaks down like this...I sit in peace mode and don't come out until the fight is over. That way, I don't have to take any damage whatsoever!"

Muppet?
[/quote]

Its seems you cant read because i never said any of that, which confirms that you're a muppet. Becareful what you wish for

[denkimon]

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1297315676' post='2627725']
Way to go, you missed the point completely.

See what was once again being argued is that you were somehow "piled on". This has been a common theme in the GOON sympathy cry since you were countered.

Now obviously if you are claiming that you were piled on that means, by definition, you feel that a disproportionate number of nations declared on you compared to the slots you have open or nations in the ranges targeted. See it does not matter if we targeted the entire aa, or just 35 k or 45 k or whatever. If you want to claim that you are being piled on it means that in whatever range we declared we would have committed a vastly larger ammt of nations than what you had available in that range.

So the question once again comes back to one of simple math. There is obviously a benchmark somewhere as far as number of nations counter declaring on you that we have somehow surpassed thus taking this out of the realm of a counter and into the realm of a curbstomp or pile-on or whatever other terms you plan on using.


Obviously you are aware that your nation count in the ranges we targeted vastly outnumbers that of most aa's, and that there would need to a "pool" of aa's required ot hit that range, so your argument that you got countered by 12 aa's is useless (To illustrate this point...if 20 aa's the size of Sanitarium declared on you would it be a curb-stomp...of course not). So therefore the number of aa's is a straw man in relation to the argument that you are making. The real question is how many nation would you consider overkill to counter 270 nations with 100% of their slots open given the considerations I outlined in the first post.


Once you provide that answer, which will define the point where a counter changed to a pile on in your eyes, then we can compare it to what was actually sent against you to see if your claims you are being piled on are correct.


It is really not that hard a concept to grasp. Actually, by your own statement that we failed to provide enough nations to counter all of your guys, you are in fact proving the point that you are not being piled on like your alliance keeps claiming it is



As far as your activity levels I was not commenting on goons at all. In fact it is quite the opposite. When mounting a counter we would have to assume 100% activity levels for your nations since it is impossible for us to know which are and are not active, therefore we need to hit everyone (which subsequently raises the number of total nations we need). On the other hand WE need to consider the activity levels of the nations we would be sending in and compensate the gross figure for an inactivity level so that we net the correct ammt of nations for the counter.
[/quote]

good to know that when 12 alliances declare on us, it's only PART of 12 alliances that declare on us. As in, the PART you need to use in your mathematical garbage. I mean really? You really believe this? How long did you spend contriving this utter crap?

Well anyway my (personal anecdote of wartime domination / peace mode joke / 12 v 1 reminder) completely neutralizes your argument. Also Schatt sucks.

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='denkimon' timestamp='1297347302' post='2627942']
good to know that when 12 alliances declare on us, it's only PART of 12 alliances that declare on us. As in, the PART you need to use in your mathematical garbage. I mean really? You really believe this? How long did you spend contriving this utter crap?

Well anyway my (personal anecdote of wartime domination / peace mode joke / 12 v 1 reminder) completely neutralizes your argument. Also Schatt sucks.
[/quote]


This is the best you can come up with? This basically reads, well someone is calling us on the BS we are throwing around and using the numbers we threw out there to do so...quick...denounce common sense as mathematical garbage.

Congrats you also have the ability to count to 12.

By that same logic you are using, a situation where 30 aa's with 2 members a piece declared on goons would also be cause for GOONS to cry curbstomp, and post a thread on how you will not be disbanding in the face of this onslaught. You starting to see why the number of aa's that hit you has no bearing to the question at hand yet?

Edited February 10, 2011 by The Crimson King

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297324149' post='2627820']
It really doesn't have anything to do with size. An alliance could have 1000 members and be irrelevant, just as a 2 man alliance could be relevant.
[/quote]

That's my point. When people claim an alliance to be irrelevant simply because of its size, I get sorta upset. I usually cry for no less than six hours. [/size][/font]

[nippy]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1297341713' post='2627896']
Its seems you cant read because i never said any of that, which confirms that you're a muppet. Becareful what you wish for
[/quote]

the rebel: "I'm just going to continue standing behind this rock while I throw meaningless threats at people and call them a trademarked children's show character. This is all I can do to keep from crying myself to sleep from fear of being completely useless."

[the rebel]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1297368218' post='2628211']
the rebel: "I'm just going to continue standing behind this rock while I throw meaningless threats at people and call them a trademarked children's show character. This is all I can do to keep from crying myself to sleep from fear of being completely useless."
[/quote]

Since the whole of CnG has come to give you some assistance why dont you go give Athens a courtesy call and ask any of the goverment if im a "peacemode coward" but if thats the only ignorant insult you can use then i pity you Also if you dont know what muppet means then look it up or you too much of a muppet to do that?

[nippy]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1297379948' post='2628428']
Since the whole of CnG has come to give you some assistance why dont you go give Athens a courtesy call and ask any of the goverment if im a "peacemode coward" but if thats the only ignorant insult you can use then i pity you Also if you dont know what muppet means then look it up or you too much of a muppet to do that?
[/quote]

the rebel: " "

Don't pity me, boy. I'm having a great time outside of peace mode.

[the rebel]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1297403731' post='2629012']
the rebel: " "

Don't pity me, boy. I'm having a great time outside of peace mode.
[/quote]

I do pity you, boy. Stop crying about people in peacemode in x/y or z alliance, you dont start a fight then cry constantly about how they fight back, hell most of the people you're crying about you cant even hit with your baby nation