lakerzz8 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1296119149' post='2605212'] If they don't read the OWF, how would they really know about anything that goes on? I mean, if they don't read the OWF, while they'd notice a war like this, I doubt they'd look up alliance stats or anything, so they'd have no idea how good anyone was at fighting. Besides, there hasn't really been any breakthroughs in military theory since VietFAN II at least, when they were one of the most battle-hardened alliances out there [/quote] Right. I was just pointing out that the average neutral nation ruler approach wouldn't garnish the results he wanted since the average nation ruler knows little outside his own nation/alliance. And if we went only by those posting on the OWF, well...95% of posters are tied heavily to one side or another and don't have unbiased opinions. Edited January 27, 2011 by lakerzz8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Warlord Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1296084718' post='2603525'] You make no sense son. You see, we already attacked NPO. But your witty retort implies that as a result of this post we will now be attacked by NPO and we should be scared. See the failure? We are ALREADY at war with NPO. We already attacked them. Get it? [/quote] It makes perfect sense. Think about it as me saying, "Get back in there and roll NPO" Happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1296119149' post='2605212'] If they don't read the OWF, how would they really know about anything that goes on? I mean, if they don't read the OWF, while they'd notice a war like this, I doubt they'd look up alliance stats or anything, so they'd have no idea how good anyone was at fighting. Besides, there hasn't really been any breakthroughs in military theory since VietFAN II at least, when they were one of the most battle-hardened alliances out there [/quote] There is no need to venture to this place. Our friends know where to find us and us them. The rest we care nothing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1296116169' post='2605160'] It's posts like these that just make yourself and your alliance look foolish. Respected military alliances don't wait until an alliance is getting attacked by 3 other alliances and jump on their coat tails to get in on the action as well. FAN clearly only entered the war because they knew they couldn't lose with all these numbers on their side. No Doomhouse announcement= No Fan announcement. What has FAN done recently that shows they are still a military powerhouse like they once were (4 years ago?). And please don't cite winning those idiotic war games. [/quote] I gather you missed the part where FAN hit NPO before Doomhouse. Besides, even if you were correct, I don't see anything wrong with waiting until I have a winning position before I embark on a campaign to get revenge on someone I dislike. It's simply the intelligent way to do things. FAN could not have taken NPO by itself, so therefore it didn't attempt to do so (at first, anyway.) They needed to rebuild and I'm sure NPO watched FAN's massive buildup of nukes and WRCs with some trepidation. Edited January 29, 2011 by Kalasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Somoza Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Current war aside- Goodness it is good to see FAN and mpol back in the normal sphere of things. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think that VietFAN is still a part of reality. You all have always been one of my favorite alliances. I may disagree with your current war, but that's not going to change my opinion of you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrophis Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296105401' post='2604651'] Quote this for future reference. NPO will not surrender. NPO will not pay any reps. NPO will not disband. And, finally, NPO will not kiss your !@# [/quote] Quote this for future reference. By the end of this war, you will be doing at least 3 of those. You can pick which ones it will be. Edited January 29, 2011 by atrophis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakerzz8 Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296259184' post='2608148'] I gather you missed the part where FAN hit NPO before Doomhouse. Besides, even if you were correct, I don't see anything wrong with waiting until I have a winning position before I embark on a campaign to get revenge on someone I dislike. It's simply the intelligent way to do things. FAN could not have taken NPO by itself, so therefore it didn't attempt to do so (at first, anyway.) They needed to rebuild and I'm sure NPO watched FAN's massive buildup of nukes and WRCs with some trepidation. [/quote] If you honestly believe that FAN declared war without knowledge of Doomhouse attacking then you are a fool. If you don't believe that, than you know the actual time of their first war upon NPO doesn't matter. It is the fact that they waited until they knew Doomhouse was attacking and they decided to join in on the war. Sure, it is the more intelligent (read: cowardly) way of getting revenge. However, an alliance that likes to tout itself as being a military powerhouse should not be entering a war riding on the heels of stronger alliances. The bravest general of LakerLand does not wait for 3 other generals to lead their armies into enemy territory before marching in himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrophis Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1296261693' post='2608190'] If you honestly believe that FAN declared war without knowledge of Doomhouse attacking then you are a fool. If you don't believe that, than you know the actual time of their first war upon NPO doesn't matter. It is the fact that they waited until they knew Doomhouse was attacking and they decided to join in on the war. Sure, it is the more intelligent (read: cowardly) way of getting revenge. However, an alliance that likes to tout itself as being a military powerhouse should not be entering a war riding on the heels of stronger alliances. The bravest general of LakerLand does not wait for 3 other generals to lead their armies into enemy territory before marching in himself. [/quote] You really enjoy talking smack, don't you? I am wondering if you were saying the same thing about the NPO when they hit us one week out till our peace terms ended with several other alliances? What comes around, goes around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='atrophis' timestamp='1296260916' post='2608182'] Quote this for future reference. By the end of this war, you will be doing at least 3 of those. You can pick which ones it will be. [/quote] I respect FAN. Although I joined NPO after Viet-FAN started and only shortly before it ended, my admiration for your fortitude is immense. However, if you believe that attribute is one that is only maintained by you and yours, you are sorely mistaken. We may, and probably will, suffer attrition. It happened in Karma and it may happen now, even though most of the fair weather members have already shown their colors and left. The vast majority of NPO members, like myself, are not concerned with the power of our individual nations, but rather with the bond we have forged among ourselves. You, as a member of FAN, should be able to understand that. I will not strike my colors, even if this unjust aggression continues for 1,2,3,4 or more years. And I am a relatively new member, with only 2 years under my belt. I was not deterred in Karma, which was certainly justified in many respects. I will not be deterred as a result of this completely unjustified pogrom. I believe, with a certainty that has been fortified by the trial of adversity, that my fellow members with far more time invested in their commitment to Pacifica than I will not abandon her simply because some slavering hyenas have decided to snip at her heals. Pacifica will endure. As my namesake in another universe once said, "You have my word on it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrophis Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296263487' post='2608231'] Pacifica will endure. As my namesake in another universe once said, "You have my word on it." [/quote] In some ways I hope this is true, so that you may live under our boot for 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='atrophis' timestamp='1296262131' post='2608199'] You really enjoy talking smack, don't you? I am wondering if you were saying the same thing about the NPO when they hit us one week out till our peace terms ended with several other alliances? What comes around, goes around. [/quote] I was, atrophis. Look up my old ruler name, degen83 on those forums, you'll see plenty posts of me badmouthing the 2nd FAN war. Which is why I maintain that FAN is the only one out of this lot to have a "valid" grudge. Doomhouse does not, and are hitting NPO because they can, using the same CB that NPO, One Vision, and the rest of them used to blitz FAN 1 week before coming out of surrender terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) What will be, will be. I simply advise those that think that they can repeat the mistakes for which Pacifica was punished in Karma, that their own retribution will come. No dynasty lasts forever. In this war, you have an alliance which is being subjected to double jeopardy. While I admit that FAN has not been able to enjoy the sweet fruit of retribution, the others involved in this travesty have. FAN is entitled to its vengeance. The fungi, and the other alliances which they have infested, are not. You are justified in your attack, even if some may deride you for riding on the coattails of other alliances in order to achieve it. The others have no such justification. They claim that we should have coddled up to them. I do not subscribe to that notion. Diplomacy is a two way street. MK and company never did anything except abuse Pacifica, both in and out of terms. They whine about closing their embassy and expelling their diplomats? Perhaps their diplomats should not have been actively abusive, slinging insults and making pejorative posts purposely designed to inflame the indignation of those with whom they were supposedly engaging in diplomacy. Perhaps they should not have engaged in organized mass raids designed to damage our ability to peacefully conduct commerce in our sphere. Perhaps they should not have engaged in the same kind of derogatory posting for which they condemn us. As I said, diplomacy is a bidirectional process. There has not been any time since Karma in which MK and Co. have demonstrated anything other than hate, derision and ill intent toward us. For them to claim that we are to blame for our lack of civil relations, is at best, disingenuous. The world at large knows that what I have posted here is true. The allies of MK and Co. almost certainly do not care, which puts them in the same shoes as those worn by alliances which supported NPO during its time of power and abuse. They have found that it is easy to deny what is right when it is politically expedient to do so. The rest of the world that are not actively supporting MK and Co., may believe, with some justification, that they are not positioned at this time to do anything about the injustice. I cannot condemn them for that. I will simply say, that as Pacifica was humbled, so too will MK and Co. be humbled in their turn. In the meantime, Atrophis, I sincerely hope that you enjoy your moment in the sun. Just remember that the weather is a fickle mistress and that sunny days can sometimes turn stormy with but a moment's notice. (edited for minor typos) Edited January 29, 2011 by Joe Izuzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakerzz8 Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='atrophis' timestamp='1296262131' post='2608199'] You really enjoy talking smack, don't you? I am wondering if you were saying the same thing about the NPO when they hit us one week out till our peace terms ended with several other alliances? What comes around, goes around. [/quote] I don't know if I was around/checked the OWF then. However, I probably would have been saying the same thing. Also, Pacifica has been feared for their large numbers and connections. I don't know if anyone equated them to a well-organized military powerhouse as they have with you. I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1296267139' post='2608310'] I don't know if I was around/checked the OWF then. However, I probably would have been saying the same thing. Also, Pacifica has been feared for their large numbers and connections. I don't know if anyone equated them to a well-organized military powerhouse as they have with you. I could be wrong. [/quote] Pacifica's greatest military asset was not its members, but its FA and ability to get large alliances, or a large number of smaller ones, to support them in their wars. When one of their allies took sufficient heat for their actions they were dropped and either rolled by NPO or whoever NPO's current allies were. During the Continuum times that was when the NPO was at its height in power, it had solid allies in One Vision, and it had a military force nobody could compete with in Continuum. What did Continuum in was the same way the Initiative got done in, its members left and decided not to uphold Continuum over all else. NPO was never considered an elitist military alliances. They fought decently, came up with decent tactics, but due to their large amount of nations it was difficult to coordinate good effective blitzes. NPO had dead weight. FAN's dead weight got destroyed in the first FAN war. Remove the deadweight off any alliance and you will see their true strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakerzz8 Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1296267429' post='2608321'] Pacifica's greatest military asset was not its members, but its FA and ability to get large alliances, or a large number of smaller ones, to support them in their wars. When one of their allies took sufficient heat for their actions they were dropped and either rolled by NPO or whoever NPO's current allies were. During the Continuum times that was when the NPO was at its height in power, it had solid allies in One Vision, and it had a military force nobody could compete with in Continuum. What did Continuum in was the same way the Initiative got done in, its members left and decided not to uphold Continuum over all else. NPO was never considered an elitist military alliances. They fought decently, came up with decent tactics, but due to their large amount of nations it was difficult to coordinate good effective blitzes. NPO had dead weight. FAN's dead weight got destroyed in the first FAN war. Remove the deadweight off any alliance and you will see their true strength. [/quote] That is exactly my point. NPO was never an "elitist military alliance." Therefore, the example he mentioned isn't equal to the current situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1296267601' post='2608328'] That is exactly my point. NPO was never an "elitist military alliance." Therefore, the example he mentioned isn't equal to the current situation. [/quote] I disagree. The example he gave was that NPO and allies hit FAN one week before they would have been out of terms and allowed to go free for a series of "peace term infractions". Mpol handled such accusations by breaking down exactly the violations that were brought against them, and there were 2 trains of thought then. One was the Pacifican and allies, the "FAN violated terms, that was their one and only chance, now die and come out of peace mode so we can war you" mode, and the second, which was "this is bs, seems awefully convient most the violators were not signed up on FAN's forums, and NPO was uninterested in protecting FAN while under terms, and the terms stated "keep only as much soldiers as it takes to keep your population happy" ...all of these trains of thought I am grouping in the second "anti 2nd FAN war" mindset. FAN got hit because NPO wanted to hit them and got enough evidence of nations flying the FAN AA who were violating terms, but instead of coming to FAN as the terms had stated they decided FAN was "en masse" violating terms and DOWed them. NPO got hit here because FAN tried repairing relations with NPO to no avail, mainly due to the official NPO version of the FAN war, as is much of their history, is completely biased to their point of view, no objectivity whatsoever, and in talks NPO always adhered to the NPO official version, which is not at all like it went down and not at all what FAN went through or why they went through it. NPO was never a military elitist alliance, so not sure why Doomhouse felt they needed to bring such firepower down on NPO, and as I have stated before only FAN has a legit reason for grief, the others are just opportunists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1296261693' post='2608190'] If you honestly believe that FAN declared war without knowledge of Doomhouse attacking then you are a fool. If you don't believe that, than you know the actual time of their first war upon NPO doesn't matter. It is the fact that they waited until they knew Doomhouse was attacking and they decided to join in on the war. Sure, it is the more intelligent (read: cowardly) way of getting revenge. However, an alliance that likes to tout itself as being a military powerhouse should not be entering a war riding on the heels of stronger alliances. The bravest general of LakerLand does not wait for 3 other generals to lead their armies into enemy territory before marching in himself. [/quote] So you only deserve to get revenge if you're bigger than the guy who wronged you?Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1296261693' post='2608190'] If you honestly believe that FAN declared war without knowledge of Doomhouse attacking then you are a fool. If you don't believe that, than you know the actual time of their first war upon NPO doesn't matter. It is the fact that they waited until they knew Doomhouse was attacking and they decided to join in on the war. [/quote] [i]Nobody[/i], including yourself, could be so dumb as to actually believe what you are posting. You are just trying to throw poo at the walls in a desperate attempt at getting something, [i]anything[/i], to stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrovich4 Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Give that man, Joe Izuzu, an IO office. The office will be bombed out and radioactive and he won't get much paper work done for a very long time but . . . He talks with respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamerlane Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296264975' post='2608265'] What will be, will be. I simply advise those that think that they can repeat the mistakes for which Pacifica was punished in Karma, that their own retribution will come. No dynasty lasts forever. In this war, you have an alliance which is being subjected to double jeopardy. While I admit that FAN has not been able to enjoy the sweet fruit of retribution, the others involved in this travesty have. FAN is entitled to its vengeance. The fungi, and the other alliances which they have infested, are not. You are justified in your attack, even if some may deride you for riding on the coattails of other alliances in order to achieve it. The others have no such justification. [/quote] Its only ok for FAN to have retribution if and only if they are alone against a far larger opponent. Yeah... [quote]They claim that we should have coddled up to them. I do not subscribe to that notion. Diplomacy is a two way street. MK and company never did anything except abuse Pacifica, both in and out of terms. They whine about closing their embassy and expelling their diplomats? Perhaps their diplomats should not have been actively abusive, slinging insults and making pejorative posts purposely designed to inflame the indignation of those with whom they were supposedly engaging in diplomacy. Perhaps they should not have engaged in organized mass raids designed to damage our ability to peacefully conduct commerce in our sphere. Perhaps they should not have engaged in the same kind of derogatory posting for which they condemn us. As I said, diplomacy is a bidirectional process. There has not been any time since Karma in which MK and Co. have demonstrated anything other than hate, derision and ill intent toward us. For them to claim that we are to blame for our lack of civil relations, is at best, disingenuous.[/quote] A more loaded heap of tripe, I have never seen. Next time you want to flavor your wording, make sure there is at least a modicum of truth to it. We haven't cared about Pacifica since Karma (present circumstances aside) and our interactions with them may have been cool but were not hostile unless you want to take into account the provoked incidents which you so vainly attempted to spin in this body of slander. Raiding nations on red is by no means a hostile action towards Pacifica unles you would like to claim Red Sphere for your own, again. Lets not forget Sir Paul' little "Im the King" jig which was a directed slight towards us and our leadership. No, I repeat, NO hand was ever extended during the past year and the petty actions by Pacifica in the MK embassy on their forums and in Sir Paul's actions should provide a good example of the lengths at which they are willing to go to show us their indignation. Edited January 29, 2011 by tamerlane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corinan Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1296316367' post='2609527'] We haven't cared about Pacifica since Karma (present circumstances aside) and our interactions with them may have been cool but were not hostile [/quote] I haven't seen !@#$%^&* stacked this high in a while. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamerlane Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1296318580' post='2609552'] I haven't seen !@#$%^&* stacked this high in a while. Well done. [/quote] More from the peanut gallery tonight at 11. Edited January 29, 2011 by tamerlane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corinan Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1296318807' post='2609554'] More from the peanut gallery tonight at 11. [/quote] You know I know this point has been beaten to death already, but you really are sounding a lot like the late Mr. Thorne these days. It's amusing to witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watson895 Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Guys, I'm thinking you don't seem to understand how FAN works. Periodically the issue is raised of blowing something up, much like the majority of alliances I expect. However with us, 99% of the time it's NPO. This group commands a majority in FAN, but a minority in the cooler heads of .gov. We weren't ready for the longest time, and we sure as hell aren't going to jump NPO during or right after reps ended. Fact is, I'd be willing to bet that at some point, either someone from FAN approached Doomhouse or vice versa, and asked something along the lines of "We're invading the NPO, you guys want in?" And given the way most of FAN feels about this game, the way we feel about the NPO, if I were in .gov, I'd be hard pressed not to at least lay down contingency plans in case a good opportunity came up. And so here we are. I know for me, the possibility of this war is the only reason I'm still here. To rain every nuke I can lay hands on down on the NPO. I don't hate the NPO, it's simply that we didn't have the power to defend ourselves from the horde that came to us, so we simply had to delay our counterattack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 You won't get any argument from me. As far as I am concerned, and as I have stated already, FAN is justified. Teaming up with DH was a logical move. The issues that I have sit squarely in DH's lap, in that they were not justified. The fact that they have backpedaled, changed their rationale for why their attack on an uninvolved party was necessary, and generally thrown out any unfounded charge they can get their hands on simply demonstrates that they don't even believe they were justified. If you are going to try to sway public opinion, it is generally better to maintain a decent level of consistency in your logic, rather than let your arguments change direction like a weather vane in a swirling wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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