A doctrine of war: what Karma should and shouldn't have done.

[Tromp]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1296144754' post='2605668']
So what is your opinion of how TPF "needed to pay" for crimes when myself and my gov were not in the alliance during any of so mentioned crimes? Despite constant recognition of mistakes and policy reversals up to and including defending a founding member or Nordreich from pzi. Banning ezi/pzi publicly (along with NPO) and including apologies for such actions -note the guy from tdsm8 that I can't remember.
[/quote]
One may argue that it was incinsere, as it only happened after the tide seemed to turn against you. If you expected brownie points for it at the time, I think you have been very naive. And then again it was only a week or so before the war broke out. The memory was way too fresh for anyone to be able to forget or forgive.
I'm not so sure about the "punishment" argument to be honest. Certainly, TPF was punished for prolonging the war against their opponents during Karma, but that was because of a silly pride issue you had going at the time, so it was mostly of your own doing. Not to mention it was TPF that started the war, [i]and[/i] lost.

In any case, I hold nothing against TPF, save for ingame rivalry ofcourse ( ), so please don't interpret my post in a way that wasn't intended.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296146379' post='2605724']
One may argue that it was incinsere, as it only happened after the tide seemed to turn against you. If you expected brownie points for it at the time, I think you have been very naive. And then again it was only a week or so before the war broke out. The memory was way too fresh for anyone to be able to forget or forgive.
I'm not so sure about the "punishment" argument to be honest. Certainly, TPF was punished for prolonging the war against their opponents during Karma, but that was because of a silly pride issue you had going at the time, so it was mostly of your own doing. Not to mention it was TPF that started the war, [i]and[/i] lost.

In any case, I hold nothing against TPF, save for ingame rivalry ofcourse ( ), so please don't interpret my post in a way that wasn't intended.
[/quote]
When we didn't crush PC that was in October, 6 months or more before the karma war. The incident with martens and xiphosis was many months before as well. We had no illusion it would be "brownie points". Finally TPF didn't start the karma war, that would be NPO and TORN.

[Tromp]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1296146816' post='2605736']
When we didn't crush PC that was in October, 6 months or more before the karma war. The incident with martens and xiphosis was many months before as well. We had no illusion it would be "brownie points".[/quote]
This may all be true, but the thing that mattered, at least at that time, was the perception. How people, especially your foes, interpreted your moves.
Do I believe TPF "has changed"? Yes, I do. Do I hold anything against TPF as of now? No, I already said that. Did I do so at the time? Not really, you just messed with my allies.

Anyway, point being that I don't think TPF "needed to pay" because of those crimes you mentioned as much as for your actual role in that war.
[quote]
Finally TPF didn't start the karma war, that would be NPO and TORN.
[/quote]
Meh.
Technically you are right, but we both know of the role TPF played in getting it started.
I don't think we have to disagree on this.

[Branimir]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1296093515' post='2603886']
"This game needed war... As long as it was us versus you, and not a war that split our side in two!"

There were multiple opportunities for war that involved a split on your side. The cowardice that prevented those, that wasn't on us. The NEW situation was only the most recent.[/quote]
You see, to make the game more fun again is not to bring new dynamics to the field, new alliances between political players nor new political differences.
That is stupid.

You make the game fun to fight the same war over and over again, with the same grudges over and over again.
That is fun. That is exactly what the game needs-- same old.

Heh, anyway, it is all fine with me. Force fed rationalizations and propaganda pamphlets are typical of all wars.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Branimir

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296071837' post='2603113']
I think we're just avoiding being redundant by mentioning both all the time, and EZI is more extreme so it better represents what used to happen. PZI isn't generally accepted either, and I can't recall it being used at any point recently.
[/quote]

Both are bad strategically as well. I'm amazed that this isn't brought up as an argument more often. Am I the only one who see's this???

Sure - go ahead and "punish" a national leader who your side considers an enemy to your alliance enough to take extreme measures by forcing him or her into hiding. Um, okay...where that most likely will end should not be a surprise to anyone.

Talk about NOT taking into account "natural consequences"

Edited January 27, 2011 by White Chocolate

[mhawk]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296146346' post='2605723']
Not sure what I said about TPF before? Did you not keep a good portion of the old guard around anyway? Did Slayer not invite you to take the reigns?

How could they do anything? As I said "the material conditions have changed", their line not mine. They don't mean anything if NPO goes back to acting like it did before except for not being able to do anything due to its political position. How could you participate in a war if you're under terms and have no money? I know your jailbreaking of NPO fantasy never panned out(which if it happened would subvert your argument here, also brilliant to alienate anti-NPO elements within a coalition defending you). Their rhetoric has always been always been transparent on these forums since Karma, and even moreso especially once this war kicked off, which they saw as their big chance.
[/quote]
Pretty much the only old guard from gov that stayed around was Jbone. Slayer invited me to take the reigns on grounds of trusting my judgement, not under any notion of continuing established policies. That night we talked to pc he was there and wanted me to crush them. My decision was to try to end the rivalry and compromise.

I'm sorry but using something we thought would be cool (NPO jail bust), but never actually happened or was attempted as evidence is silly.

If I understand your argument correctly, you agree NPO has done nothing to warrant attack in two years. However you feel this is only because they didn't have the chance. You guys then stated in the DoW that you couldn't even risk them having a capability so you're going to attack them. How exactly are they supposed to demonstrate any sort of change? They play nice, but either are not strong enough for you to believe change has occurred, or you beat them down because they are getting too strong? If this is your policy, why did you even stop the karma war? It is clear you feel their community is too dangerous to be left alone regardless of their actions.

What mechanism exists to stop such a cycle.

Edited January 27, 2011 by mhawk

[Tromp]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1296148503' post='2605761'][...]
What mechanism exists to stop such a cycle.
[/quote]
That's up to you (referring to NPO here), as someone who is disliked by others, to have them change that perspective. Other alliances have been succesful at this, why couldn't the NPO?
I believe this has been said multiple times by now, just check the FAN thread for example.

Since NPO has not once tried to make amends since Karma concluded, and in fact actively opposed those who they are now being attacked by, can you seriously blame DH for taking the initiative, when it was very likely (giving NPO the benefit of the doubt here for arguments sake, as in that it wasn't certain yet) they would enter on the opposite side of DH in this war?

[Branimir]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296149578' post='2605775']I believe this has been said multiple times by now, just check the FAN thread for example.[/quote]
Nonsense.

That DoW was essentially completely illiterate. It left impression that NPO and FAN did not communicate, among other things, that NPO did not approach FAN. That is a blatant lie, as we did. Obviously FAN didnt like our efforts, which is ok, but it isnt as we didnt tried at all to mend bridges.


[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296149578' post='2605775']Since NPO has not once tried to make amends since Karma concluded, and in fact actively opposed those who they are now being attacked by, can you seriously blame DH for taking the initiative, when it was very likely (giving NPO the benefit of the doubt here for arguments sake, as in that it wasn't certain yet) they would enter on the opposite side of DH in this war?[/quote]
Nonsense.

You can try to talk to others, but if they are bigots your effort will remain futile. Those that werent, with them I do believe we have now a better, more cordial and friendly relationship. But with overly butt hurt ppl like MK which define their identity on opposing NPO-- it is nothing we can do.

But I figure you wouldn't understand me anyway. Being that you are one of our long time detractors, that also can not see the change in NPO after 2 years of Cortath. So my words are not directed at you, as that is futile, but the other viewers that may get a wrong impression from your post.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Branimir

[Triyun]

Wow. How delusional can one get. Talk about disparity between the reality of the actual NS numbers and perceptions. The idea that the NPO was even a iota of a threat to MK prior to this war was laughable. If MK wanted a multi polar world in the least bit, it simply would not be tied to all the major blocs that existed prior to this war. MK was tied to PB, CnG, and SF were the overwhelming amount of fire power in the game not including neutral alliances resided. NPO was not tied to nearly as many blocs. MK talks about wanting to have multipolarity, but really it is merely disguised unipolarity, because it has similar power mechanisms that we once had in regards to its treaty connections it just holds them back behind a facade. If MK wanted multi polarity it would reduce ties to PB and CnG and not sign an alliance with TOP. That would be what true multi polarity is.

MK should just be honest about what its doing. Its leaders were on the bottom for a while and are scared to risk going back so it occasionally tries to engineer a curb stomp which it hopes will satiate its members so their blood lust is kept in check and they don't start disputes which actually are threatening to the underlying structure and organization of the current political hegemony in which MK is the central pivot.

[Sephiroth]

Even after the Karma War people have been kept at ZI for quite a while and while some leave others are eventually released. There never was anything permanent about PZI except those in power would weld it to keep hitting their opponents after they can't fight back, the main problem was alliances who were doing exactly what MK has been doing lately because they were in a position to do so. The excessive reps and what it would cost someone to get off a PZI list, knowing no matter how many times they're punished the one attacking isn't satisfied, as MK has always made a point to be harsh on reps almost as if you guys felt with NPO not doing it you had a duty to fill that void. MK is no different than NPO was when I helped you guys fight them in the noCB War, a pointless cycle of revenge where you only guarantee they will hate you more after this since avoiding you guys didn't work.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Methrage

[Father Christmas]

Just to note that, as things that happened (or didn't?!) 2 years ago are being mulled over again, it's worth being aware that about 66% of current nations didn't even exist 2 years ago. I imagine that many of these nations' leaders probably find fighting (on whichever side) rather less interesting as the basic reasons for the war are things they weren't around for. It all seems a bit Orwellian...welcome to the alliance, we fight the other alliance, we have always fought the other alliance...apart from when we were on their side fighting the third alliance, we have always fought the third alliance, well, apart from when we were on their side fighting the other alliance etc etc....ad infinitum. The vast majority of people don't play any part in the politics and (I suspect) want little more than to develop their nations, the occasional war to defend their alliance-mates from a misguided raid and maybe a bit of large-scale war on a broadly equitable basis now and again. Instead we get to listen to people (on both sides) crowing about how "great" they are at war, usually on the back of a curbstomp where one side stood no chance. No wonder people get bored and leave. Build up your nation...fight for your side (you have to get in an alliance or you'll just get raided to pieces)...get destroyed in another curb-stomp over something you don't understand or care about, wonder why you bothered...then wonder if its worth starting again as your alliance is now under "terms" and you have to give all your tech to someone else anyway.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1296150919' post='2605815']
Nonsense.

That DoW was essentially completely illiterate. It left impression that NPO and FAN did not communicate, among other things, that NPO did not approach FAN. That is a blatant lie, as we did. Obviously FAN didnt like our efforts, which is ok, but it isnt as we didnt tried at all to mend bridges.
[/quote]
I wasn't talking about FAN specifically, and I may have given the wrong example to illustrate my point, but in general it remains true.

[quote]
Nonsense.

You can try to talk to others, but if they are bigots your effort will remain futile. Those that werent, with them I do believe we have now a better, more cordial and friendly relationship. But with overly butt hurt ppl like MK which define their identity on opposing NPO-- it is nothing we can do.
[/quote]
Yeah, well, when you only talk to those you are already close to, and don't pay attention to the people that may actually want to hurt you, and to go as far as to oppose and thus anger them even further, then what does that say about you?
Ofcourse it is a two way street, but I don't see why people have to change their minds about you out of their own initiative. This arrogance is exactly what made this situation possbile, but somehow it is always the fault of others. Give me a break.
[quote]
But I figure you wouldn't understand me anyway. Being that you are one of our long time detractors, that also can not see the change in NPO after 2 years of Cortath. So my words are not directed at you, as that is futile, but the other viewers that may get a wrong impression from your post.
[/quote]
Let's be honest, I think we understand each other perfectly fine. If that is the case, then you shouldn't act surprised this happened to you, and neither should your allies. Rather man up and go down the path you have taken.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296152582' post='2605850']Yeah, well, when you only talk to those you are already close to, and don't pay attention to the people that may actually want to hurt you, and to go as far as to oppose and thus anger them even further, then what does that say about you?
Ofcourse it is a two way street, but I don't see why people have to change their minds about you out of their own initiative. This arrogance is exactly what made this situation possbile, but somehow it is always the fault of others. Give me a break.[/quote]
Nonsense.

We payed attention to those that wanted to hurt us, but they were bigots. We played a nice guy for 2 years (as RV said, we never were a part of any chan hunting for CB on your side, nor in coalition chans during the time of this war), not in any way opposing our attackers, but that wasnt enough.

We got preemt for nothing. And we are arrogant?

Do you know what is arrogance? Arrogance is to claim once you attack someone out of the blue, for no reason and no provocation-- that it is their fault. That is arrogance. That is you.

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296152582' post='2605850']Let's be honest, I think we understand each other perfectly fine. If that is the case, then you shouldn't act surprised this happened to you, and neither should your allies. Rather man up and go down the path you have taken.[/quote]
Man up? We are here, holding our lines. And we took our lessons. We cant be nice enough, to not get preemted at the first opportune time when the world is busy with a global war.

That too is a two way street. "Man up."

Edited January 27, 2011 by Branimir

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296149578' post='2605775']
That's up to you (referring to NPO here), as someone who is disliked by others, to have them change that perspective. Other alliances have been succesful at this, why couldn't the NPO?
I believe this has been said multiple times by now, just check the FAN thread for example.

Since NPO has not once tried to make amends since Karma concluded, and in fact actively opposed those who they are now being attacked by, can you seriously blame DH for taking the initiative, when it was very likely (giving NPO the benefit of the doubt here for arguments sake, as in that it wasn't certain yet) they would enter on the opposite side of DH in this war?
[/quote]
NPO has done plenty to show themselves different from not repeating what they did in the past all this time, as well as show they weren't looking for a chance to try rolling you guys. If you expected NPO to be groveling at your feet begging for you to sign treaties with them they knew wouldn't of mattered to prove themselves, then what you wanted to see was NPO reduced to a hallow shell of what they once were with no pride to exist in this world. I don't think I've seen anything to indicate they planned to take a side other than doing what other alliances do every day here expressing their displeasure with what they don't like.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1296153153' post='2605863']
Nonsense.

We payed attention to those that wanted to hurt us, but they were bigots. We played a nice guy for 2 years (as RV said, we never were a part of any chan hunting for CB on your side, nor in coalition chans during the time of this war), not in any way opposing our attackers, but that wasnt enough.

We got preemt for nothing. And we are arrogant?

Do you know what is arrogance? Arrogance is to claim once you attack someone out of the blue, for no reason and no provocation-- that it is their fault. That is arrogance. That is you.
[/quote]
While being a "long time detractor" of the NPO as you put it, I haven't seen you or any other NPO guy on our forums. I don't believe we've been alone in this. And if you gave people any attention at all, it wasn't flattering. That isn't playing the "nice guy", and I'm sure you can see that as well.

As for not being part in coalition chans, well, I do recall that NPO was very much interested in the events during BiPolar. I don't have the privilige of having access to that kind of information for this war, but really, it matters little. I doubt anyone will buy the "we were never nor would become involved" line. Fact is that you're tied to and involved with the people that oppose my allies and alliance. That's your right, but again, don't act surprised when it is being seen as threatening. You of all people, as NPO member, must know how this world works.
[quote]
[...]
And we took our lessons.
[...]
[/quote]
One can only hope.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1296154013' post='2605888']
NPO has done plenty to show themselves different from not repeating what they did in the past all this time, [b]as well as show they weren't looking for a chance to try rolling you guys.[/b] If you expected NPO to be groveling at your feet begging for you to sign treaties with them they knew wouldn't of mattered to prove themselves, then what you wanted to see was NPO reduced to a hallow shell of what they once were with no pride to exist in this world. I don't think I've seen anything to indicate they planned to take a side other than doing what other alliances do every day here expressing their displeasure with what they don't like.
[/quote]
I disagree on the bolded part, see above. Not that it matters, because it's a choice his alliance can make.
Don't worry though, I ain't interested in seeing them groveling at my feet lol. I have my hands full with some penguins and polar bears at the moment.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296154476' post='2605901']While being a "long time detractor" of the NPO as you put it, I haven't seen you or any other NPO guy on our forums. I don't believe we've been alone in this. And if you gave people any attention at all, it wasn't flattering. That isn't playing the "nice guy", and I'm sure you can see that as well.[/quote]
What, you need a hug or something?

In 2 years, NPO did not transgressed even by the most strict of the moral concepts out there. We lived and let live.
We were not searching for ways to roll your alliance. We didn't opposed you in any meaningful way. Not even as irrelevant as OWF banter.
That is playing a nice guy, one that searches for no trouble and if trouble comes his way is reasonable.

Sorry, but we just do not hug people though. If you are so vain, then lol. Man up.
[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296154476' post='2605901']Fact is that you're tied to and involved with the people that oppose my allies and alliance. That's your right, but again, don't act surprised when it is being seen as threatening. You of all people, as NPO member, must know how this world works.

One can only hope. [/quote]
So, you dont like our friends now, ey? lol

However you try, the point is you are to fail. You can not blame someone after you attack him for no reason, no provocation, how it is his fault. You are butchering common sense, logic and everything rational left in this game. You could give it a rest. There is no spin that makes this look different or better. With this, you can only bank on those haters to support, as no other support can be had.

So, spare me of this dribble.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1296155293' post='2605921']
What, you need a hug or something?
[/quote]
On the contrary, I enjoy flying bullets and some glow in the dark!
[quote]
In 2 years, NPO did not transgressed even by the most strict of the moral concepts out there. We lived and let live.
We were not searching for ways to roll your alliance. We didn't opposed you in any meaningful way. Not even as irrelevant as OWF banter.
That is playing a nice guy, one that searches for no trouble and if trouble comes his way is reasonable.

Sorry, but we just do not hug people though. If you are so vain, then lol. Man up.
[/quote]
Right, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
[quote]
So, you dont like our friends now, ey? lol

However you try, the point is you are to fail. You can not blame someone after you attack him for no reason, no provocation, how it is his fault. You are butchering common sense, logic and everything rational left in this game. You could give it a rest. There is no spin that makes this look different or better. With this, you can only bank on those haters to support, as no other support can be had.

So, spare me of this dribble.
[/quote]
Not really, it makes perfect sense if you don't share your premise.
This is getting nowhere though, as our opinions are diametrically opposed and will not change. In order not to offend Azaghul too much for violating his thread I'm going to take my leave.

Thanks for the chat, it was actually quite fun.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Tromp

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296146346' post='2605723']
I don't even know what you're getting at here. It's dochartaigh after all, though.
[/quote]

considering the amount of crap spewed forth by your alliance and your allies about what NPO did 2-4 years ago i would think it would be easy to see what i mean. and people try to claim i am being "intentionally obtuse"... maybe if you don't want people shoving in your face, things done under Ochocinco's Umbrella, then you should ensure that your alliance does not do it to others first. otherwise, deal with it.

[Manis B]

I dont think the game is boring so much as MK is boring/bored. I believe that to be the underlying problem here.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1296152194' post='2605843']
The excessive reps and what it would cost someone to get off a PZI list, knowing no matter how many times they're punished the one attacking isn't satisfied, as MK has always made a point to be harsh on reps almost as if you guys felt with NPO not doing it you had a duty to fill that void.[/quote]
You have five wars where we have been on the winning side:
- Shark war 1: 1000 tech to Deck of Cards and some light restrictions
- Shark war 2: Some light restrictions
- UBD: We gave white peace
- Karma war: IIRC, the only alliance that we didn't give white peace too, AND THAT WE WERE FIGHTING AND HAD A SAY IN THE TERMS OF, was TPF. Those reps and terms weren't excessive, and in discussions with the other alliances on that front we were on the side of lighter terms. The eventual terms were a compromise, after much discussion and arguing, between MK which wanted them to be lighter and PC which wanted them to be harsher.
- Bipolar war: the only example where we gave very high reps.

So you're 1 for 5.

[quote]MK is no different than NPO was when I helped you guys fight them in the noCB War, a pointless cycle of revenge where you only guarantee they will hate you more after this since avoiding you guys didn't work.[/quote]
If they were trying to "avoid" us they failed at it pretty badly. Their official propaganda newsletter was heavily devoted to bashing us. As it was official, it's only fair to assume that it represented policy.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Azaghul

[Branimir]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296159399' post='2605996']Their official propaganda newsletter was heavily devoted to bashing us. As it was official, it's only fair to assume that it represented policy.[/quote]
Will you stop taking Sir Pauls tabloid, as in tabloid, so Sir Pauls tabloid for more then it was. Though it is indicative of how poor your argument is, that his tabloid is the only thing you have to stick with.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Branimir

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296159399' post='2605996']
- Karma war: IIRC, the only alliance that we didn't give white peace too, AND THAT WE WERE FIGHTING AND HAD A SAY IN THE TERMS OF, was TPF. Those reps and terms weren't excessive, and in discussions with the other alliances on that front we were on the side of lighter terms. The eventual terms were a compromise, after much discussion and arguing, between MK which wanted them to be lighter and PC which wanted them to be harsher.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, you are implying that MK didn't get any of Pacifica's tech? Also if I remember correctly our surrender was signed by the "Voice of Karma ", so I suppose you had a say in the terms...

Edited clarification, just in case. The emoticon indicates that I don't like the titles that LM and Archon had at the time, I have nothing against them.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Balkan Banania

[silentkiller]

[quote]If they were trying to "avoid" us they failed at it pretty badly. Their official propaganda newsletter was heavily devoted to bashing us. As it was official, it's only fair to assume that it represented policy. [/quote]

By that logic our Karma terms also had Archon's signature on them. I guess that makes two wars where you extracted heavy reps.

[potato]

[quote name='Balkan Banania' timestamp='1296160567' post='2606013']
Out of curiosity, you are implying that MK didn't get any of Pacifica's tech? Also if I remember correctly our surrender was signed by the "Voice of Karma ", so I suppose you had a say in the terms...

Edited clarification, just in case. The emoticon indicates that I don't like the titles that LM and Archon had at the time, I have nothing against them.
[/quote]

We did get some of your tech. Our allies offered it but we had no say whatsoever in the terms Pacifica received. You don't have to take Azaghul's word for it as he was only the one in charge of all reps within MK.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1296162336' post='2606058']
We did get some of your tech. Our allies offered it but we had no say whatsoever in the terms Pacifica received. You don't have to take Azaghul's word for it as he was only the one in charge of all reps within MK.
[/quote]

Your king's signature is still on the ToS. Whether you had a say or not, the terms were still backed by MK.