A doctrine of war: what Karma should and shouldn't have done.

[zzzptm]

THE FOLLOWING IS HUMOR. HAFLINGER IS A GREAT GUY OOC, BUT HE IS MY NEMESIS IC. HENCE, THE SUBTLE HUMOR. PERSONS WITHOUT A SENSE OF HUMOR WILL BE CONFUSED BY THE FOLLOWING POST AND SHOULD DISREGARD IT. YOUR TIME WILL BE BETTER SPENT WRITING YOUR CONGRESSMEN ABOUT SERIOUS ISSUES OF THE DAY.

What was right before the war:

Boo, Invicta!

What is wrong with this war:

Go, Invicta!

DAMN YOU MK FOR TURNING MY WORLD UPSIDE-DOWN AND GIVING HAFLINGER THE SATISFACTION!

Seriously, MK, I could have lived without having to be defined as being in the same bloc with Haflinger. Thanks a whole hell of a lot for that.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1296756112' post='2617903']
THE FOLLOWING IS HUMOR. HAFLINGER IS A GREAT GUY OOC, BUT HE IS MY NEMESIS IC. HENCE, THE SUBTLE HUMOR. PERSONS WITHOUT A SENSE OF HUMOR WILL BE CONFUSED BY THE FOLLOWING POST AND SHOULD DISREGARD IT. YOUR TIME WILL BE BETTER SPENT WRITING YOUR CONGRESSMEN ABOUT SERIOUS ISSUES OF THE DAY.

What was right before the war:

Boo, Invicta!

What is wrong with this war:

Go, Invicta!

DAMN YOU MK FOR TURNING MY WORLD UPSIDE-DOWN AND GIVING HAFLINGER THE SATISFACTION!

Seriously, MK, I could have lived without having to be defined as being in the same bloc with Haflinger. Thanks a whole hell of a lot for that.
[/quote]
You're welcome.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1296759008' post='2617939']
You're welcome.
[/quote]

Ruining my day since 2007...

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1296733915' post='2617615']
"...entering wars you know you have no chance of changing, for no reason, and whining when you lose is [i]so damn easy[/i], even easier than winning (I know, I've been around)."
[/quote]

Every time I enter a war I always have a reason. And when I lose I never whine.

If you don't know anything about me or my MO don't insult me.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1296777069' post='2618357']
Every time I enter a war I always have a reason. And when I lose I never whine.

If you don't know anything about me or my MO don't insult me.
[/quote]I can read. We don't need to go into deep solipsism for me to think you have dick for brains.

[Goldie]

[quote name='TECUMSEH' timestamp='1296656290' post='2616134']
With regard to eradication, I guess I should include and/or "crippling defeat". Obviously, they can't force Polar or Pacifica to disband, but they can, for all intents and purposes, make them non-factors for a prolonged period of time.

With regard to your second point, I agree. There are a number of alliances who are doing their duty via treaty on the Curbstompee Side. I would never suggest RIA or RoK or several others wouldn't be involved squarely in whatever the next major conflict is. I do think that the genuine, dyed-in-the-wool Curbstompees -- Polaris/UPN/USN/STA, etc and Pacifica/Legion/Invicta, etc, are going to find it difficult to be relevant in 6 months or even 12 months time.

Now, if the comeuppance is served, if ever, more than a year from now, maybe they get involved. But that would mean another stultifying 12 months of the Powers-That-Be running the game with an occasional curbstomp (pushing their reign to over 2.5 years). I'm not sure what will be left of the game after that.

Anyway, that's my take. I sincerely hope, for the game's sake, that Powers-The-Be eventually split, but I'm not holding my breath.
[/quote]

Here is the difference between your side and ours.

While you guys were running the game, we buckled down and got better than you, politically, economically, and militarily, and turned the tables on you.

You, however, have decided that now that we are running the game, that you're going to sit there and take it.

Jesus christ, get better than us, or at least try. Make this continually interesting, or else yea, you might be in for a long time of the game not being fun for you.

[the rebel]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1296852989' post='2619495']
You, however, have decided that now that we are running the game, that you're going to sit there and take it.
[/quote]

I wouldnt say either UPN or VE have ever ran the game, sure you in the food chain but never the top of it. Though like many have said before me the reperations for the defeated side keep getting more crippling as the years go on so obviously the defeated side has to sit there because they end up being chained for 9months+ paying and can take over a year if more after reps are paid for nations to recover lost tech after long extended wars.

[wickedj]

[quote]You, however, have decided that now that [b]we[/b] are running the game, that you're going to sit there and take it.[/quote]
heh, thats cute. hilarious AND cute

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1296828208' post='2619217']
I can read. We don't need to go into deep solipsism for me to think you have dick for brains.
[/quote]

You're a lovely individual but no amount of insults will spare your pathetic alliance.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1296877224' post='2619804']
You're a lovely individual but no amount of insults will spare your pathetic alliance.
[/quote]Have mercy on me, I'm not sure I can survive losing another 10% of my NS

[Believland]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1296828208' post='2619217']
I can read. We don't need to go into deep solipsism for me to think you have dick for brains.
[/quote]

While he honestly has dicks for brains he does have some cojones too. Plus he never whines. I do that for him.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1296588962' post='2614890']
When you look at history you will find that the powers-that-be usually devour themselves when the enemies are gone.
[/quote]
Yes, that's because fighting everyone else is !@#$@#$ boring; it descends into one beatdown after another. You get wars like GATO-1V and this one when you just band together with your friends at the top of the power structure, and stay with them forever.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296606992' post='2615275']
Excuse me, we haven't done that for months, and when we did do it, it was accidental, and we paid reparations for it when asked.
[/quote]
So you paid reps for the Red Raiding Safari?

[TECUMSEH]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1296852989' post='2619495']
Here is the difference between your side and ours.

While you guys were running the game, we buckled down and got better than you, politically, economically, and militarily, and turned the tables on you.

You, however, have decided that now that we are running the game, that you're going to sit there and take it.

Jesus christ, get better than us, or at least try. Make this continually interesting, or else yea, you might be in for a long time of the game not being fun for you.
[/quote]

First, I don't think that "my side" has decided we're going to sit there and take it. Second, I absolutely agree that "my side" needs to get better politically. "Your side" did a very nice job of that, though, how long did that take? How long did Q rule?

Third, I agree that "my side" needs to get better militarily and economically. However, there are, obviously, significant differences b/t economic and military situations in 2008/09 and today.

As the game matures, it is increasingly more difficult for new nations to develop into relevant economic and military threats and, for that matter, more difficult for nations that have been held in prolonged war to develop. In short, busting the crap out of the top and middle tiers these days creates, IMO, a much wider gulf between haves and have nots than it did in 2007 or 2008. I think my nation is a decent example. I enrolled in May of 2007 and, at my peak, was top 50 in the space of 2 years or so years. That is unthinkable today (barring true reset war).

And, obviously, tech is an area of military prowess that is a far better example of a nearly insurmountable gap as tech acquisition is capped. I'm going to lose 5, 6, 7, 8K tech -- maybe more -- in this war. Assuming "your side" continues to buy tech, there's absolutely no way for me (or "my side") to make up the difference.

Finally -- I hope my posts have been clear. I'm not here to whine or cry or moan. This is the game. I'm really only trying to talk about the realities of the game. It's fine to say, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!", but that's a long, arduous road and, on the tech side, one that might never be traversed (the value of infra, obviously, become asymptotal and allows for smaller nations to eventually and very, very slowly close the gap). And what's more, when "my side" does reach a stage of economic and military recovery, the precedent has been set to mudhole "my side" back down to nothing (and here, conceded -- politics matters).

So, I'll congratulate "your side" on wrecking all significant opposition. You've done well. I mean that. As I noted to HellAngel, however, I will continue to take issue with any that suggests this "really shakes things up" or makes the game "more interesting."

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='TECUMSEH' timestamp='1297263588' post='2626966']
First, I don't think that "my side" has decided we're going to sit there and take it. Second, I absolutely agree that "my side" needs to get better politically. "Your side" did a very nice job of that, though, how long did that take? How long did Q rule?

Third, I agree that "my side" needs to get better militarily and economically. However, there are, obviously, significant differences b/t economic and military situations in 2008/09 and today.

As the game matures, it is increasingly more difficult for new nations to develop into relevant economic and military threats and, for that matter, more difficult for nations that have been held in prolonged war to develop. In short, busting the crap out of the top and middle tiers these days creates, IMO, a much wider gulf between haves and have nots than it did in 2007 or 2008. I think my nation is a decent example. I enrolled in May of 2007 and, at my peak, was top 50 in the space of 2 years or so years. That is unthinkable today (barring true reset war).

And, obviously, tech is an area of military prowess that is a far better example of a nearly insurmountable gap as tech acquisition is capped. I'm going to lose 5, 6, 7, 8K tech -- maybe more -- in this war. Assuming "your side" continues to buy tech, there's absolutely no way for me (or "my side") to make up the difference.

Finally -- I hope my posts have been clear. I'm not here to whine or cry or moan. This is the game. I'm really only trying to talk about the realities of the game. It's fine to say, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!", but that's a long, arduous road and, on the tech side, one that might never be traversed (the value of infra, obviously, become asymptotal and allows for smaller nations to eventually and very, very slowly close the gap). And what's more, when "my side" does reach a stage of economic and military recovery, the precedent has been set to mudhole "my side" back down to nothing (and here, conceded -- politics matters).

So, I'll congratulate "your side" on wrecking all significant opposition. You've done well. I mean that. As I noted to HellAngel, however, I will continue to take issue with any that suggests this "really shakes things up" or makes the game "more interesting."
[/quote]

I would just like to make 1 point and that is that most of us got hammered in BiPolar while your alliance sat out building up the tech and the infra. So all it takes for your side to catch up is to make sure you aren't the next one who is getting their head kicked in. All you need to do is smarten up politically wise and never let people like Peggy run your and your allies' alliances.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297260237' post='2626923']
Yes, that's because fighting everyone else is !@#$@#$ boring; it descends into one beatdown after another. You get wars like GATO-1V and this one when you just band together with your friends at the top of the power structure, and stay with them forever.


So you paid reps for the Red Raiding Safari?
[/quote]
Red Raiding Safari was very fun, and given that no reps were asked for Red Raid Safari it is logical to assume all those hit were not protected, hense the lack of a military response, or even much of a diplomatic one of a "hey please stop attacking my alliance".

That said, I do not agree with the party line being talked about here by MK and friends. Although someone did raise a good point, while NPO and "hegemony" was running the game, some on the "other side" buckled down and got better. Of course several large alliances who were in Karma when, or just before, NPO got hit who ended up at war with NPO certainly helped swing the tide firmly in favor of Karma. It wasn't just the C&G alliances and a few others who forced the change, its their FA and decisions of those who were in the "hegemony" to switch sides if their interests were violated by others in the "hegemony".

The talk here that says that we don't have a Continuum like structure is ignorant. We have Pandora's Bloc, a smallish, decent sized bloc with a lot of ties to other blocks which effectively, like Continuum, brings these alliances together. This, unlike Continuum, is a grouping of different blocs, but it has grouped a large amount of power on the same side just the same.

Now, after Karma rose up and answered NPO's call of "You don't like it, do something about it", such talk of "we got better than you when you were winning the game, so now that we are winning you need to get better than us" has a very similar message; you don't like the current power structure, do something about it.

Kudos to those who are owning up to what they're doing, and not hiding behind some false mask of morality. However if the rumour mill has any semblance of truth, terms for either Order are expected to be excessively harsh, almost draconian, and will be difficult to pull off. This war, at least the NPO/Doomhouse front, is exactly like the old Continuum/NPO curbstomps of old. MK, you have become the "new NPO". Thats fine if you are being the bad guy, but please have your people get on the same page and realize you are playing the roll of the antagonist, and are not going about doing "good deals" a plenty.

It is a fact that behaviors in this war will change the landscape here for some time. Only time will tell if its for the better or not. The precidents set here will carry over, and there will be consequences.

[TECUMSEH]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297327307' post='2627841']
....So all it takes for your side to catch up is to make sure you aren't the next one who is getting their head kicked in. All you need to do is smarten up politically wise and never let people like Peggy run your and your allies' alliances.
[/quote]

That's not all that it takes...it takes someone on "your side" getting their head kicked in, too. And with opposition virtually eliminated, that's not going to happen for awhile. So we are where we are. Again, pragmatically speaking, not complaining.

And, yes, I conceded goldies's point re politics at the outset of my post and find nothing to dispute wrt your own point.