A Sad GOONS Announcement

[Leigon]

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1293151595' post='2552153']
The last part I bolded irks me considerably. You speak as if we (GOONS) had the power to prevent the signing of the treaty between MK and TOP. While we cetainly can pass along the certains of our allies we have no final say in their decision making. You speak as if GOONS is the responsible party who just let this happen while ignoring GOD's position to it. Yet that is not the case as Xiph threw down an unacceptable ultimatum. What frustrates me the most is that you basically threw away our alliances treaty and friendship over not the actions of us GOONS, but that of our ally, for some political point.
[/quote]

I can absolutely understand your frustration about this. And honestly I'd probably feel the same way in your shoes. We canceled on you for something that you could only have influenced by taking some extreme actions I admit that. I hope in time you will be able to forgive us for having to cancel for something you only had minimal influence upon at best. But the problem is we were left with no other option to react to this. Had MK not canceled their treaty with us we might have canceled that instead, but as they did what were we supposed to do? Post an End of a Friendship Notice or something like that?

Is this situation ideal? Far from it. Has Goons been treated roughly? Absolutely, but not only by GOD. MK knew exactly how Xiph would react to this. They helped put Goons and GOD in a position where our different takes on foreign affairs would pull us apart. I don't really know what they exspect to gain from this, but that is the feeling I get.

As an endnote, please know that I harbor no ill-feeling towards goons. Neither for not stopping the treaty nor for posting this slightly extravagant cancelation announcement. I do understand your anger though and just hope we can reconcile at a later time.

[Duke Nukem]

I hate to say it and trust me I really [b]HATE[/b] to say it but Xiph was right here. GOONS does have some influence with MK and they could've easily piped up and said hey we don't feel comftorable with this treaty. Xiph had every right to cancel and now that his allies in VE are telling him he's ridiculous leads me to believe that they would pull a PC and back out of their treaty if a war came.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='We Are Not Alone' timestamp='1293153246' post='2552166']
I hate to say it and trust me I really [b]HATE[/b] to say it but Xiph was right here. GOONS does have some influence with MK and they could've easily piped up and said hey we don't feel comftorable with this treaty.
[/quote]
I wonder how you know what GOONS told MK in private. I'm pretty sure you don't!

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='We Are Not Alone' timestamp='1293153246' post='2552166']
I hate to say it and trust me I really [b]HATE[/b] to say it but Xiph was right here. GOONS does have some influence with MK and they could've easily piped up and said hey we don't feel comftorable with this treaty. Xiph had every right to cancel and now that his allies in VE are telling him he's ridiculous leads me to believe that they would pull a PC and back out of their treaty if a war came.
[/quote]

If you think VE would do that, you're sorely mistaken.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1293139506' post='2551929']
The second or third post in of the announcement for the treaty, an MK member:


And the second page, a TOP member:
[/quote]
OOC: It's time to explain the joke!

In Hearts of Iron 2, there is an event called "The Unholy Alliance" in which the Soviet Union and Germany sign an alliance, not just an NAP (as is historically accurate). We decided that given the nature of the last war, it was a good theme for the treaty, especially since Hearts of Iron 2 is made by Paradox Interactive, from whom TOP gets their name. Part of the treaty includes a division of Polish territory between the two. The comments about Poland are a reference to that, not NpO.

The idea that we looked for an obscure joke just so we could match it to NpO is ridiculous.

[quote name='Leigon' timestamp='1293152764' post='2552164']
Is this situation ideal? Far from it. Has Goons been treated roughly? Absolutely, but not only by GOD. MK knew exactly how Xiph would react to this. They helped put Goons and GOD in a position where our different takes on foreign affairs would pull us apart. I don't really know what they exspect to gain from this, but that is the feeling I get.
[/quote]
Yeah, GOONS. It's our fault this treaty was cancelled, not the guy who actually chose to cancel it. Get with the program guys.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='We Are Not Alone' timestamp='1293153246' post='2552166']
Xiph had every right to cancel and now that his allies in VE are telling him he's ridiculous leads me to believe that they would pull a PC and back out of their treaty if a war came.
[/quote]

That's ridiculous, sorry, and it's disrespectful to say.

The bottom line for this whole thread can be boiled down to this; if I have an agenda, I expect that to not only be adopted by my allies but [b]every bit as important[/b] to them as it is to me. This is the price I ask for giving them the exact same courtesy in return. That is not the wavelength the GOD-GOONS relationship was operating on, and it had to go. It hurt to do, and I absolutely wish everything I did as a leader was things I enjoyed doing, but it's not. This is a job, and the good comes with the bad.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293153917' post='2552173']
That is not the wavelength the GOD-GOONS relationship was operating on, and it had to go.
[/quote]

So, since you're basically still tied to GOONS via VE, will you be ditching your VE treaty?

[Omniscient1]

I really don't know how to feel about this. I've always loved both Xiph and GOD so I guess I will wish them good luck on the road ahead.

It is interesting that GOONS is always trying to remind all of MK's old allies about how they're still allied to MK. Maybe some people don't play this game to achieve MK's approval? That's just a random thought though.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='We Are Not Alone' timestamp='1293153246' post='2552166']
Xiph had every right to cancel and now that his allies in VE are telling him he's ridiculous leads me to believe that they would pull a PC and back out of their treaty if a war came.
[/quote]

Just to throw this in here WANA; The GOD-VE treaty is an MDAP. I believe the VE-GOONS treaty and PB too are MDoAPs. (I could be wrong though). Usually, MDAPs trump MDoAPs so I don't think VE would try to weasel their way out of that treaty.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Leigon' timestamp='1293152764' post='2552164']
I can absolutely understand your frustration about this. And honestly I'd probably feel the same way in your shoes. We canceled on you for something that you could only have influenced by taking some extreme actions I admit that. I hope in time you will be able to forgive us for having to cancel for something you only had minimal influence upon at best. But the problem is we were left with no other option to react to this. Had MK not canceled their treaty with us we might have canceled that instead, but as they did what were we supposed to do? Post an End of a Friendship Notice or something like that? [/quote]
You had "no option" but to react? How about but just being mature and accepting it, rather than throwing a temper tantrum and scapegoating a 3rd party?

I'll ask again, why is TOP so bad that y'all feel like you have "no option" but to react in this manner? You don't like TOP, we get it. I don't see why they are worthy of such intense opposition.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293153917' post='2552173']
That's ridiculous, sorry, and it's disrespectful to say.

The bottom line for this whole thread can be boiled down to this; if I have an agenda, I expect that to not only be adopted by my allies but [b]every bit as important[/b] to them as it is to me. This is the price I ask for giving them the exact same courtesy in return. That is not the wavelength the GOD-GOONS relationship was operating on, and it had to go. It hurt to do, and I absolutely wish everything I did as a leader was things I enjoyed doing, but it's not. This is a job, and the good comes with the bad.
[/quote]
So why didn't you give GOONS the "exact same courtesy in return" and adopt their agenda of recognizing that their treaties are non-chaining and not being that concerned about it?

Expecting your allies to follow your every opinion 100% is neither practical nor reasonable. When agendas conflict who has to give up theirs and adopt their partners?

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1293154716' post='2552180']
So why didn't you give GOONS the "exact same courtesy in return" and adopt their agenda of recognizing that their treaties are non-chaining and not being that concerned about it?

Expecting your allies to follow your every opinion 100% is neither practical nor reasonable. When agendas conflict who has to give up theirs and adopt their partners?
[/quote]

It doesn't have to be an "accept our opinion or else situation". It could have been "our paths don't match up anymore" statement. Last time I heard that was an ok excuse to cancel a treaty.

If GOD asked GOONS to cancel their MK treaty (which they could have I wasn't there) then I would agree, but I don't think that happened.

[Quinoa Rex]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293153917' post='2552173']
if I have an agenda, I expect that to not only be adopted by my allies but [b]every bit as important[/b] to them as it is to me. This is the price I ask for giving them the exact same courtesy in return.
[/quote]
This isn't how you treat friends and allies. It's how you treat lackeys. Heaven forbid an ally ever think your agenda isn't viable for them, then; I'm sure the world would end.

[AirMe]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1293149391' post='2552109']
1. Hilarious how MK's "roll xyz" shenanigans still make some people freak out, even though we never followed through.
2. Hilarious how the alliance that got hit out of nowhere and lost its upper tier in a brutal battle against TOP managed to get over it and reconcile, yet some people are being literal children about it.
3. Hilarious how Xiph thinks he gets to decide who [i]deserves[/i] to be on our side.

What a [i]hilarious[/i] world we live in.

I'm sorry to see you caught in the middle of this, GOONS.
[/quote]

Meow, meow meow meow meow meow MEOW!

Sorry Lebubu, I couldn't resist.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293154074' post='2552174']
So, since you're basically still tied to GOONS via VE, will you be ditching your VE treaty?
[/quote]

Only Mr. Damsky would seriously ask this question.

I'll answer on behalf of GOD on this one, since it's so damn obvious: No.

Go away, Damsky.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293153917' post='2552173']
That's ridiculous, sorry, and it's disrespectful to say.

The bottom line for this whole thread can be boiled down to this; if I have an agenda, I expect that to not only be adopted by my allies but [b]every bit as important[/b] to them as it is to me. This is the price I ask for giving them the exact same courtesy in return. That is not the wavelength the GOD-GOONS relationship was operating on, and it had to go. It hurt to do, and I absolutely wish everything I did as a leader was things I enjoyed doing, but it's not. This is a job, and the good comes with the bad.
[/quote]Gee mister. I don't know much, but you sure are an insane megalomaniac with nowhere near the statistical strength to back it up!!

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1293155305' post='2552187']
I'll answer on behalf of GOD on this one, since it's so damn obvious: No.
[/quote]

So this is all completely useless as GOD is still attached to TOP.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1293155065' post='2552183']
It doesn't have to be an "accept our opinion or else situation". It could have been "our paths don't match up anymore" statement. Last time I heard that was an ok excuse to cancel a treaty.

If GOD asked GOONS to cancel their MK treaty (which they could have I wasn't there) then I would agree, but I don't think that happened.
[/quote]If you read the post at the top of the page, I feel it is implied. If he would cancel the GOONS treaty for it, and he expects GOONS to behave in [b]exactly[/b] the same way, then surely only a treaty cancellation would be good enough.

[Bodvar Jarl]

Well, I don't know exactly why this thread was made, or if it was a good idea or not.

It brings out a discussion that almost succeeds to deliver enough quality to it that I think it's worth to chip in and encourage

Fact, Xiph has decided that TOP is an enemy of his, that is his choice, he absolutely does not want us to be able to redeem ourselves, also his choice.

In truth, I welcome such stances, it slashes through entanglements like a knife, leaving nice cuts, creating distance between people, makes things interesting.

To every action, there must be a reaction, does one expect Paradoxia to simply sit obediently in the corner and wait and see what the machinations of someone currently in a stronger position than us that would like to see us at the receiving end of a rather nasty array of weaponry? Really now, while it is unknown to me how much effort he actually puts into that, and I assume that it haven't been much, but it would be unwise to not consider the option that I am wrong.

Fact: Paradoxia is done with paying it's debts, and wants to come back and play the big game, sitting around twiddling thumbs and imitating GPA worked for a time, and was the smart thing to do, but it's rather boring. We could maybe try to gather what remained of our old coalition from the last war, but problem is that it wasn't all that much left of it, and it sort of lost that war anyways. Hmm, there would always be the possibility of NPO, I guess, but I seem to recall Xiph being extremely adamant about the fear that we (through IRON) was already deeply involved with them already, I also seem to recall him saying that if IRON were to cancel on TPF&others to remove the tie, which eventually they did for their own reasons, he'd be more at ease with us. Not that this seems to have a noticeable effect. Like, IRON cutting out almost anything connecting them to NPO, and then here we go, marching in the opposite direction of the one he absolutely did not want us to go. I am now supposed to think what? Honestly, I sort of welcome the idea that someone that has decided to hate us, acts on it to such an extent as to sever ties and bridges, but I usually assume that I am facing smarter adversaries than that.

What this all comes down to is that Xiph is en route to build a GOD-NpO axis, or at least that's what it looks like, and it looks like PB+MK+??? are on a crash course with that. There's no prize for guessing what side Paradoxia would want to join in such a scenario. But to actually believe that this development is happening merely because Xiph dislikes us so much that he'd act on that out of spite is a rather long stretch. As much as we are accused of believing that CN revolves around the will of Johan and that the rigthful place of his children and disciples is in the center of everyone's attention, as much as we would like to believe that it is so, it is very hard to believe that the political landscape would shift otherwise if Paradoxia did nothing.

The truth is, I believe, that this treaty, or at least not the political alliance, would not be able to withstand the stress induced by the forces already in motion, what Xiph just did would be extremely petty if it hinged on the unholy alliance alone, although he did allude fairly clearly to the fact that NpO was turning into an adversary, and that does sound like a much more logical reason.

Now, xiph has to bring up his old stories about our escapades during Karma, lead-up, war and peace, with a rather imaginative recollection of events that he likes better than the story told by those that were there. Crafting the image of a Paradoxia that screws over all it's allies, never plays for the team, stitching together Crymson's bad moments and so on. I'd like to think that we're so awesome and scary that we get to be bogeyman even if we are just a sidekick at this point in time, although we're certainly not the meatshield, we're the glass cannon if we stick to RPG methaphor. What I do think is that we're simply on the receiving end of one of the opening salvo's of the oncoming propaganda war. Did I mention that such things are fun?

We do get a lot of screen time though, which is nice, I was missing that

Edited December 24, 2010 by Bodvar Jarl

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1293155909' post='2552195']
If you read the post at the top of the page, I feel it is implied. If he would cancel the GOONS treaty for it, and he expects GOONS to behave in [b]exactly[/b] the same way, then surely only a treaty cancellation would be good enough.
[/quote]

I guess we just interpret his statement in a different way. Speaking to Xiphosis as often as I have, I know one of Xiph's main rules while doing foreign affairs is to never have conflicting treaties. I feel as if he maybe thinks this treaty would conflict with the way he wanted to go and so he canceled it. I personally see nothing wrong with that.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1293139357' post='2551924']
This is, perhaps, the thing that angers me the most. You discarded our treaty, and indeed our very friendship, to make a political point.
[/quote]
Treaties are poltical, they are tools of policy. What do you have a bunch of CareBears running your FA? "Awwwww, friedsies!! Let's nuzzle!"

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1293138899' post='2551913']
Because Polar is a lot more reliable than TOP, right?
[/quote]
[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1293141080' post='2551961']
Which is then why you get to know them. Something MK has actually done.
[/quote]
I love your replies in this thread, TOP has compeltely 180ed since BiPolar, but Polaris is to be held as contemptible as ever.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1293144263' post='2552017']
Had I said nothing I would have been implicitly complicit with an act I found to be ethically bankrupt. Private venues would not have done it justice.
[/quote]
Moralist Sardonic takes a stand against the "ethically bankrupt" practice of unified foreign policy. Details at 11.

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1293146824' post='2552046']
Santa's real too, also Merry Xmas.
[/quote]
Shahenshah, if you or anyone else don't understand the difference between the power held by an autocrat and the power held by an elected guy that has to consult an elected council, then just hush and don't let on, or ask questions and get educated.

[quote name='Khyber' timestamp='1293147644' post='2552056']
To be honest after that problem with GOONS and UPN where NpO sat in a channel talking about going to war with GOONS, I'm suprised that it wasn't the other way around, GOONS making ultimatums to GOD about any treaties with the NpO.
[/quote]

The difference is obvious from GOONS's gushing replies in this thread and Xiphosis' approach to FA: "It hurt to do, and I absolutely wish everything I did as a leader was things I enjoyed doing, but it's not. This is a job, and the good comes with the bad."

[NLights]

The part that gets me is, if we had been given half the chance that Xiphosis has decided to give NpO I sincerely think we could have gotten along. I mean we got over everything with MK [i]while we were paying reps to them[/i]. We've really developed a relationship there that took a lot of work to accomplish. As always, communication is the key to this game and we've simply never, in my opinion, been given a fair shot of explanation or redemption with GOD. However, it's up to Xiphosis to weigh what happened during the Karma War (& not a single member of TOP will say that was a good time for us) & what NpO did during BiPolar. I will say that I'm proud of what TOP has become after two hard wars. I think we've finally found our center of balance again after a rocky road during Karma and our time at the top after. I wish we had been given the opportunity to show that to GOD.

When people ask me what I know about GOD, the only thing I know to say is that Xiphosis hates us. That's truly all I know. People inside of TOP don't hate GOD for any reason at all really - all we know is the animosity that's inside GOD aimed towards us. It's incredibly one sided in that way.

Also, I know it's been expressed privately but I'd like apologize - I really don't like that a relationship we worked so hard on caused someone else's to fail. Good luck to GOONS and GOD in the future.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1293156575' post='2552199']


I love your replies in this thread, TOP has compeltely 180ed since BiPolar, but Polaris is to be held as contemptible as ever.


[/quote]

If we are to go only on old history from Bi-Polar and before, then my statements are spot on as TOP was more reliable back then than NpO. If we go to the modern time, then Xiphosis is holding a double standard to TOP. He has given NpO a chance to cozy up to him while denying that right to TOP.

I consider Xiphosis a friend, but I can still see how he's being hypocritical.

[hizzy]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293153917' post='2552173']
That's ridiculous, sorry, and it's disrespectful to say.

The bottom line for this whole thread can be boiled down to this; if I have an agenda, I expect that to not only be adopted by my allies but [b]every bit as important[/b] to them as it is to me. This is the price I ask for giving them the exact same courtesy in return. That is not the wavelength the GOD-GOONS relationship was operating on, and it had to go. It hurt to do, and I absolutely wish everything I did as a leader was things I enjoyed doing, but it's not. This is a job, and the good comes with the bad.
[/quote]

You're a liar and a fraud.

This whole "I expect this sacrifice because I give the same" act that you're using to garner support and make yourself look better is a load of crap and I know this first hand. How often have your allies asked you to back down from a confrontation that they have a vested interest in, only to find you putting your own ego and grudges ahead of them?

[Aeternos Astramora]

TOP-IRON-R&R-GOD is why I don't get this move. Am I to guess that GOD will either kick R&R out of SF or leave SF?

+1 for GOONS

[Dan100]

I wonder what will happen in the next few months