Joint Poison Clan - iFOK Announcement

[Locke]

[quote name='sigelopisan' timestamp='1293294246' post='2553611']
Right now, we are busy throwing nuke. WAR comes first.

Last time I recall, everybody still speaking/post Indonesian language in our forum.
So, whats the issue here?? /me scratch head
[/quote]
There's no issue; you're free to disregard your own charter if you like. I just happen to think it's silly.

[raasaa]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1293292168' post='2553597']
4) Admit it. You see PC on the NEW side of things. Even though we've made our position perfectly clear, you're still saying we are liars.
[/quote]
You ARE on the NEW side of things. You have a direct MDoAP with them and are protecting them from bandwagoners :S

[fant0m]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1293293591' post='2553605']
1. I'm not going down that path with you again. We've stated our point of view on it long ago and that is that.
2. If you'd check NOIR you'd find us stating we'd have their back there as well. And previous coalitions or not has nothing to do with it.
3. We're not involved at this point yet due to the screwed up deal and setup in place by your own alliance that has totally screwed up with your view of a planned setup war.
4. I see PC skirting their own terms to support NEW with your members going to NEW. I know most of them very well to know that while they say they are helping friends and left to join NEW. They did what they did because they are war hungry and will be seeking their old AA once it's over and you'll give them their positions right back because no one else will be able to fill the positions they were in.
[/quote]


I won't deny that we all love war, Myworld, but to say that is the only reason we're doing this is completely false. I can't believe we're being criticized for jumping into a fight against a larger force to defend our friends. I also find it amazing that people like yourself can quite confidently say you know exactly what we're thinking and claim to know the one and only reason we're doing this is because we want to fire a few nukes.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293282330' post='2553551']
So, in other words, NEW chose to disregard their charter as soon as it got in the way; okay. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/IMG]
[/quote]
well, they at least upheld their charter and tech raiding rules when hitting the disbanded DF AA....

[Dogs of War]

[quote name='Australian Warlord' timestamp='1293286108' post='2553567']
That is so funny, considering that NEW has brought in top tier players from other alliances, after it was the alliance that initiated this attempted raid.
Seriously, do stop being hypocritical in your statements.
Btw : The only reason why I'm even bothering to look at this thread is because NEW took two of WTF's members. I know what my own response would be, but that's not for me to say as I'm not responsible for my alliance's policies.
[/quote]

Umm, wrong. NEW hasn't brought in anyone. Have people joined NEW on their own accord, yes. And btw, those two WTF members are former PC members. But please, don't let facts get in your way.

[SirDog]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293294161' post='2553608']
Well, it's just that one of your allies was a prominent recipient of said wartime volunteers on several occasions, including during the most recent global war. Specifically, the New Polar Order. Which leads me to believe that you bringing up this point is really a reflection of what you would like to see happen in this one particular war, rather than you espousing an honest viewpoint.
[/quote]
I just tried to get you on IRC re the above point. I hope you are not accusing me of being dishonest in my posts on this subject matter. I categorically state that I am expressing an honest viewpoint here and reject any inferrence you make regarding any agenda I allegedly have. That is a very lazy, shallow and distorted assessment. I will leave it at that and be on IRC if you want to discuss anything with me.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I can't believe we're being criticized for jumping into a fight against a larger force to defend our friends.[/quote]
You're not 'defending' them, you're (attempting to) protect them from the consequences of their own aggressive actions and bull-headedness, and by doing that you are giving them more staying power, less reason to see sense and increasing the likelihood of major damage being done to your other friends – in your former alliance and their allies.

[quote]So your view is if nations leave an alliance en-masse to fight a war for another alliance, and then are accepted back by that alliance immediately after that war...then that is NOT the government endorsing their actions?[/quote]
I also agree with this. As long as NEW's new members fulfil all surrender conditions and so on while members, going back to their former alliances afterwards (assuming that such alliances would take them) wouldn't be an alliance endorsement of their actions. After all, if the alliances in question endorsed supporting NEW (or Fark) then they would be materially supporting them and people wouldn't feel the need to leave (or not the same people at least).

[Dogs of War]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]

Wow, sacrificing our nations for our friends is selfish. Oh well, guess I am selfish then. So, do stop being friends with everyone that leaves your alliance, or just when they do something that you don't approve of? Glad I was never your friend to begin with.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293282330' post='2553551']
So, in other words, NEW chose to disregard their charter as soon as it got in the way; okay. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/IMG]
[/quote]
why the HELL are you people arguing about this. the people who joined NEW/etc wanted war so theyre getting some. The people who joined Fark/etc wanted war and guess what? now theyre getting some!

You object to it? Go join one of the alliance and fight...otherwise sit on your infra and quit bickering

[Locke]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1293298895' post='2553642']
why the HELL are you people arguing about this. the people who joined NEW/etc wanted war so theyre getting some. The people who joined Fark/etc wanted war and guess what? now theyre getting some!

You object to it? Go join one of the alliance and fight...otherwise sit on your infra and quit bickering
[/quote]
Like I said, I don't really care. If they write their charter on their toilet paper, that's fine by me. Doesn't mean that they didn't do it though.

[aming]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]


first we are not calling in allies, our friends come to help us for this war, and i think FARK did the same thing calling their protectorate in to attack our new members, so in the end, if you defending your friends will be always be right thing to do, and if our friends try to defend us (really really friends and brothers), it will be just a really wrong thing huh?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293299676' post='2553650']
Like I said, I don't really care. If they write their charter on their toilet paper, that's fine by me. Doesn't mean that they didn't do it though.
[/quote]
I once wrote a charter on a wall with fecal matter, it was a great charter, but, it rained. Charters can be amended, it happens all the time.

[greenacres]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293282330' post='2553551']
So, in other words, NEW chose to disregard their charter as soon as it got in the way; okay. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/IMG]
[/quote]

The poison clan charter, as it was originally written, was written in such a way that it would be very easy to modify, because these are arbitrary documents, and if they do not fit your current situation/membership needs/alliance political affiliation/any reason you can think of, it is best that they be quickly and easily changed than to sit there twiddling your thumbs like a bunch of !@#$@#$ morons going "oh well the charter says this is what we have to do if we want to change it!" or "If we change it, some jackass !@#$stain on the OWF is going to tell us we can't do what we want as an alliance, and we have to listen to people who aren't in our alliance! They know more about our needs than we do, so we can't offend them!"

So, why should NEW not have a fluid charter, rather than a stiff rigid charter to be interpreted by people not even in their alliance, as if they know what's best for them moreso than NEW government does?

[edited to comply with forum censorship]

Edited December 25, 2010 by greenacres

[greenacres]

[quote name='Australian Warlord' timestamp='1293286108' post='2553567']
That is so funny, considering that NEW has brought in top tier players from other alliances, after it was the alliance that initiated this attempted raid.
Seriously, do stop being hypocritical in your statements.
Btw : The only reason why I'm even bothering to look at this thread is because NEW took two of WTF's members. I know what my own response would be, but that's not for me to say as I'm not responsible for my alliance's policies.
[/quote]

No members were taken, alliances don't own members anyway, they're free to come and go as they please. People who joined NEW, joined for their own reasons, much like those that joined FARK, joined for their own reasons.

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='aming' timestamp='1293299782' post='2553651']
first we are not calling in allies, our friends come to help us for this war, and i think FARK did the same thing calling their protectorate in to attack our new members, so in the end, if you defending your friends will be always be right thing to do, and if our friends try to defend us (really really friends and brothers), it will be just a really wrong thing huh?
[/quote]

Right. 'FARK is doing the same thing [b]calling their protectorate in[/b]' If FARK, by calling in allies, is doing the same thing as you - that means you ARE doing it.

I have no problem with people volunteering their nations to defend their friends but lets not try and frame FARK doing it as somehow different. Sure, it might take a little more to get volunteers to join the 'losing side' but guess what!? If you hadn't vindictively tried to roll over a protected, disbanding AA you'd have the full support of your allies and wouldn't be losing.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Scorbolt

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='Scorbolt' timestamp='1293302692' post='2553675']
Right. 'FARK is doing the same thing [b]calling their protectorate in[/b]' If FARK, by calling in allies, is doing the same thing as you - that means you ARE doing it.

I have no problem with people volunteering their nations to defend their friends but lets not try and frame FARK doing it as somehow different. Sure, it might take a little more to get volunteers to join the 'losing side' but guess what!? If you hadn't vindictively tried to roll over a protected, disbanding AA you'd have the full support of your allies and wouldn't be losing.
[/quote]
Reading comprehension ftw.

He's saying the same thing you are, but that [b]they are being called out and you aren't.[/b] You just switched 'they' and 'you' in the bolded part. Please stop.

[Alpha Number 8]

Why keep complaining about our AA policy?

Why our Charter irritating you so much?

And why you keep talking about member of AA just like a fix assets coz they aren't.

If you have enough balls maybe you can apply NEW (the weaker side in your opinion) maybe I can consider you, or you may apply FARK(the stronger one).

Stop talking, just jump in. Such a cry baby.

Bacot aja lu ! Sini kalau berani!!

Edited December 25, 2010 by Alpha Number 8

[d3filed]

[img]http://www.beadesigngroup.com/war_is_over.jpg[/img]

i thought this was appropriate

Edited December 25, 2010 by d3filed

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1293303438' post='2553679']
Reading comprehension ftw.

He's saying the same thing you are, but that [b]they are being called out and you aren't.[/b] You just switched 'they' and 'you' in the bolded part. Please stop.
[/quote]

Did you quote me for a reason because what you said makes no sense in the context of my post.

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293299676' post='2553650']
Like I said, I don't really care. If they write their charter on their toilet paper, that's fine by me. Doesn't mean that they didn't do it though.
[/quote]
If you don't care, why do you keep bringing it up? Most people don't care and as such they aren't talking about it. It actually seems like you care quite a bit.

[hellsign]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1293268311' post='2553491']
We have Starcraftmazter that joined us. So.. Lets see who's that? Oh wait the leader of DF? The treaties of INT and TPE are no different than NOIR. Even within NOIR I posted we'd have their back.

DT has been tied to DF since when the Dark Vows were still actively in place. DF was one of the founding AA's of NOIR a long with DT. There has been a long relationship there within NOIR to have a bond there to support DF as they retired from this planet.
[/quote]

Hi MW..if you feel really tied to DF,why dont you join the war against NEW..you have no guts...the only thing you have is your big mouth

DF=Disbanded & F*&^ up and so will DT=Disbanded Too

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dogs of War' timestamp='1293297141' post='2553630']
Wow, sacrificing our nations for our friends is selfish. Oh well, guess I am selfish then. So, do stop being friends with everyone that leaves your alliance, or just when they do something that you don't approve of? Glad I was never your friend to begin with.
[/quote]

It is when you as individuals are being stupid and undermining a resolution your leaders worked out.

I don't know if you noticed, but there are a lot of potential treaty conflicts and political land mines in any larger expansion of this conflict. To anybody with two brain cells to rub together (ie, not you) its obvious that the initial declarations of war, and announcements, from the directly involved parties represented some kind of compromise to prevent a giant treaty chaining mess.

So yes it is selfish, because its absolutely not about sacrificing your nations, its about you getting your jollies because anybody with a brain can see that you are actually prolonging a conflict and simply helping to hurt those you claim are your friends all in the name of you getting your fun.

You think just because PC and ifok allowed the initial hit of NEW that they are going to sit around for an indefinite war? Of course not, even if they agreed that NEW messed up enough to deserve getting smacked around, they are not going to stand around for a ZI of the whole alliance. Its fairly safe to assume the war [i]had[/i] some predetermined end point, and probably even predetermined terms at the end of it. But the interference of idiots like you would throw that predetermined end into jeopardy.

Welcome a lesson in world politics, if you were a VE member I'd send your clueless ass back to the academy. Do we need to explain how multiple members leaving an alliance to do something in contravention of an agreement that their government made looks really bad, or can you grasp that one your self?

Edited December 26, 2010 by TypoNinja

[mushi]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1293340429' post='2554099']
It is when you as individuals are being stupid and undermining a resolution your leaders worked out.

I don't know if you noticed, but there are a lot of potential treaty conflicts and political land mines in any larger expansion of this conflict. To anybody with two brain cells to rub together (ie, not you) its obvious that the initial declarations of war, and announcements, from the directly involved parties represented some kind of compromise to prevent a giant treaty chaining mess.

So yes it is selfish, because its absolutely not about sacrificing your nations, its about you getting your jollies because anybody with a brain can see that you are actually prolonging a conflict and simply helping to hurt those you claim are your friends all in the name of you getting your fun.

You think just because PC and ifok allowed the initial hit of NEW that they are going to sit around for an indefinite war? Of course not, even if they agreed that NEW messed up enough to deserve getting smacked around, they are not going to stand around for a ZI of the whole alliance. Its fairly safe to assume the war [i]had[/i] some predetermined end point, and probably even predetermined terms at the end of it. But the interference of idiots like you would throw that predetermined end into jeopardy.

Welcome a lesson in world politics, if you were a VE member I'd send your clueless ass back to the academy. Do we need to explain how multiple members leaving an alliance to do something in contravention of an agreement that their government made looks really bad, or can you grasp that one your self?
[/quote]
So VE members are bared from leaving their AA nice to know. No one has really said there was a predetermined end to this, it only came up after the massive NS that joined NEW.

[Nklauss]

[quote name='hellsign' timestamp='1293339081' post='2554075']
Hi MW..if you feel really tied to DF,why dont you join the war against NEW..you have no guts...the only thing you have is your big mouthDF=Disbanded & F*&^ up and so will DT=Disbanded Too
[/quote]

OUCH, thats a really great point. Dont forget to ask SMC to join too.

How is that possible that (ex)DF leader just sit out from the war that was started because other AA want to help (disbanded)DF? but again, some people just really good at talk the talk and unable to walk the walk.

We are in the loosing side and yet you guys (SCM n MW) are afraid to attack us? man, I didnt know NEW scared you so much.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1293340429' post='2554099']
It is when you as individuals are being stupid and undermining a resolution your leaders worked out.

I don't know if you noticed, but there are a lot of potential treaty conflicts and political land mines in any larger expansion of this conflict. To anybody with two brain cells to rub together (ie, not you) its obvious that the initial declarations of war, and announcements, from the directly involved parties represented some kind of compromise to prevent a giant treaty chaining mess.

So yes it is selfish, because its absolutely not about sacrificing your nations, its about you getting your jollies because anybody with a brain can see that you are actually prolonging a conflict and simply helping to hurt those you claim are your friends all in the name of you getting your fun.

You think just because PC and ifok allowed the initial hit of NEW that they are going to sit around for an indefinite war? Of course not, even if they agreed that NEW messed up enough to deserve getting smacked around, they are not going to stand around for a ZI of the whole alliance. Its [b]fairly safe to assume the war [i]had[/i] some predetermined end point, and probably even predetermined terms at the end of it. But the interference of idiots like you would throw that predetermined end into jeopardy.[/b]

Welcome a lesson in world politics, if you were a VE member I'd send your clueless ass back to the academy. Do we need to explain how multiple members leaving an alliance to do something in contravention of an agreement that their government made looks really bad, or can you grasp that one your self?
[/quote]

No one should be determining when this war ends except NEW, if anyone was making predetermined plans without NEWS approval they are just as bad as those attacking NEW. If everyone really wanted to avoid this war maybe they should have left those 8 or 9 nations to their fate, how many nations and how much NS have been lost for those few AA stragglers?