An Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[kwell]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290126133' post='2516920']
Do you think there is a difference in demasking from forums and kick/banning from IRC channels?

Kick/bans happen quite often in all channels for various reasons.

I'm sure you will argue when MK K/B people from #mushroom that it's ok right.

A diplomat on forums is the same as a diplomat on IRC. A representative of an alliance on forums is the same thing as a representative of an alliance on IRC. MK and many alliances K/B often. Let's not have double standards here.
[/quote]

Yes, I guess i need to explain to you that alliance forums are way more official then irc or would you not agree? That is the key difference between a k/b from irc and an alliance forum.

[quote name='SoulVici' timestamp='1290127049' post='2516934']
Yes but do you know what exactly a troll is?
[/quote]

Yes, but that is derailing the thread.

Edited November 19, 2010 by kwell

[SoulVici]

[quote]Yes, but that is derailing the thread.
[/quote]
Take it to PM then. I'm honestly curious about your thoughts at this point.

[LittleRena]

There have been a few things bugging me ever since this topic was posted, I couldn't quite put my fingure on it, then I recall that some MK posters have, in the past, mentioned about alliances doing their "laundry" in public, which is, in effect, what this topic is. Something which should have been communication in privated channels.

To echo what has been said numerous times in this topic, nither side can come out smelling of roses here, they are both in the wrong, granted for diffrent reasons.

But let's remind ourselves of MKs views on [i]airing laudry in public[/i]

[quote name='northstars']
I love it when alliances dump their dirty laundry in public.
[/quote]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94126&view=findpost&p=2498769

[quote name='Cager']
Since showing logs of all backroom dealings has become precedent regardless if they're positive or negative I would like to see all the logs we've missed out on, where dirty laundry could have been aired but wasn't. And you can't say it's private, because RV IS ALL ABOUT AIRING LAUNDRY SO ITS OK!
[/quote]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94470&view=findpost&p=2508998

[quote name='Quinoa Rex']
This seems like a load of dirty-laundry-airing drama to me.
[/quote]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88988&view=findpost&p=2370097

But hey, it's okay if MK do it right?

[kwell]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290127370' post='2516941']
Yes, I do want to play the ignorant card. See kwell, if you took a step back and looked at the bigger picture, you'd see that this is nothing more than the Mushroom Kingdom whining to the world that they got kicked out of someone else's house (and the house of their prime enemy at that, which is probably another critical reason as to why they've brought this !@#$%^&* to the OWF).

And something about a three-year old thread that mocked an MK member? I don't see a problem with that, no. After all, you 'Shrooms seem to mock everyone that goes to your headquarters. Eye for an eye, no?

(Leaves the whole world blind.)
[/quote]

To each his own then. What you see as a Mk attempt at a pr blow to NPO I see as informing the public of a cancellation, and explaining why. This is a good tradition that more alliances should follow. If you want to look past that fact and the fact that they are defending their diplomats honor and integrity as a good alliance should, then their really isn't much hope for you.

Point me to a screen shot of where someone said that? Also, if the thread still had people posting on it, then I would consider it still active and its the NPO's governments fault for not closing the thread.

[+Zeke+]

Good grief, all this because some NON-diplomats were booted. At most there is never more than an ambassador and possibly an assistant who are actually responsible for embassy relations between alliances. This practice of naming other visiting members as diplomats is merely a convenience of forum masking. But unless the person is the officially designated ambassador, chief alliance Foreign Minister, or their alliance leader then [i]there is no diplomatic incident![/i] At my alliance home I deal with the officially named ambassador with proper diplomatic courtesy and protocol. Everyone else that comes is there only on my sufferance.


Seems to me that the decline in the importance of embassies due to IRC has left many without the proper nuance and protocol skills that embassies entail.

If these MK members were not the single designated ambassador, chief MK FM, or alliance leader then this all just noise.

To equate this with Dilber's incident is comparing apples to tire irons. Dilber was NPO's leader and later FM. Both positions deserving of proper diplomatic protocol. He was speaking for his alliance and his words had a direct effect on relations. In his position his promises and threats had the weight of NPO authority. His words could be taken verbatim as a casus belli. Dilber talked knowing his words could be used as proof of past or future alliance action. I had occasion to verbally spar with Dilber during the December crisis leading up to GW2 in OWF. While the whole of Bob stood around making tons of unofficial noise Dilber was very deliberate in his responses with me. We both knew the next word might set off the whole shooting match. There was nothing casual or offhand that either of us said and we both ignored the blizzard of [i]unofficial[/i] noise going on that could separate our responses by multiple pages in no time. You could take what Dilber said to the bank and if someone would have the gall to edit his posts they were deliberately changing the [i]official[/i] word of Pacifica.

So unless these edits and ejections were deliberate attempts to subvert or distort official MK leadership statements then there is no diplomatic incident.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1290126684' post='2516928']
Yeah, there actually is. You can't compare banning people from a public social area to banning official representatives from embassies.

OOC: also, #mushroom is a OOC channel.
[/quote]
Fact is that not many would have noticed the "insult" of the demasking until you guys made it public.

K/B from a public IRC channel is much more insulting because it is more widely noticeable.

That is the difference you don't understand or refuse to understand because it doesn't fit your needs.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1290128061' post='2516954']
To each his own then. What you see as a Mk attempt at a pr blow to NPO I see as informing the public of a cancellation, and explaining why. This is a good tradition that more alliances should follow. If you want to look past that fact and the fact that they are defending their diplomats honor and integrity as a good alliance should, then their really isn't much hope for you.

Point me to a screen shot of where someone said that? Also, if the thread still had people posting on it, then I would consider it still active and its the NPO's governments fault for not closing the thread.
[/quote]

This is what sprang to mind when you said that last point:

"OMG! NPO IS AN EBIL GOVERNMENT FOR NOT CLOSING THE THREAD! IT'S WAAARRR!!11oneone"

But, first of all..what cancellation? This isn't some kind of treaty issue. All MK did was remove diplomats from their respective assignments, because they had their posts mocked and (from what I've seen said) edited. The fact that MK decided to put this out for all the world to see is...well..pointless. And if it is, as you say, a PR attack...then it is a poor one. A very poor one indeed.

A screenie of which bit? Be specific.

Oh and, finally.."defending their diplomats honor and integrity"...what honour and integrity?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Hadrian

[lebubu]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290126133' post='2516920']
Do you think there is a difference in demasking from forums and kick/banning from IRC channels?
[/quote]


[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290128535' post='2516963']
That is the difference you don't understand or refuse to understand because it doesn't fit your needs.
[/quote]

You should make up your mind before attempting to argue. [img]http://thecastlehall.com/boards/Smileys/kickass/psyduck.gif[/img]

Regardless, you're missing the point (or being deliberately obtuse, which would restore some of my faith in humanity).

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290126133' post='2516920']
Do you think there is a difference in demasking from forums and kick/banning from IRC channels?

Kick/bans happen quite often in all channels for various reasons.

I'm sure you will argue when MK K/B people from #mushroom that it's ok right.

A diplomat on forums is the same as a diplomat on IRC. A representative of an alliance on forums is the same thing as a representative of an alliance on IRC. MK and many alliances K/B often. Let's not have double standards here.
[/quote][quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290128535' post='2516963']
Fact is that not many would have noticed the "insult" of the demasking until you guys made it public.

K/B from a public IRC channel is much more insulting because it is more widely noticeable.

That is the difference you don't understand or refuse to understand because it doesn't fit your needs.
[/quote]
I said ---^

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1290128966' post='2516973']
You should make up your mind before attempting to argue. [img]http://thecastlehall.com/boards/Smileys/kickass/psyduck.gif[/img]

Regardless, you're missing the point (or being deliberately obtuse, which would restore some of my faith in humanity).
[/quote]
and this is your answer?

MK fake outrage in the OP and this thread. You guys don't understand what insults are. You guys pick and choose what is insulting and bend it to suit your needs. "It's only ok when MK does it" - that's your position.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Fernando12

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290128535' post='2516963']
Fact is that not many would have noticed the "insult" of the demasking until you guys made it public.
[/quote]
So? MK would notice it immediately.

[quote]
K/B from a public IRC channel is much more insulting because it is more widely noticeable.
[/quote]
So? That doesn't lessen the insult of anything else.

[quote]
That is the difference you don't understand or refuse to understand because it doesn't fit your needs.
[/quote]
I don't even understand why K/B from IRC channels is even relevant here. MK is insulted due to the actions of NPO, and they react to it. That interaction literally happens in a vacuum, unless there is an incident which proves MK to be hypocritical. (And I mean actually hypocritical, where they performed the action they found insulting, not where they acted unfavorably in a tangentially related situation)

OOC: And also keep in mind, as has been said, #mushroom is an OOC channel

Edited November 19, 2010 by ktarthan

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

Can't we all just get along?

[kwell]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290129435' post='2516977']
I said ---^


and this is your answer?
MK fake outrage in the OP and this thread. [b]You guys don't understand what insults are.[/b] You guys pick and choose what is insulting and bend it to suit your needs. "It's only ok when MK does it" - that's your position.
[/quote]

I find this very funny, it almost made me forget about the stinch coming from your lies/spin. Someone has an angenda : )

[northstars]

[quote name='emmabuddie' timestamp='1290126440' post='2516927']
I (as in me) think MK is not in the wrong, they are allowed to say what they like as an annoucement to who ever they want, isnt this how politics works? its not up to me or you to sort the problem, its up to us to be informed.[/quote]

If only the rest of you were so mature and level-headed...

[quote name='emmabuddie' timestamp='1290126440' post='2516927']
troll troll troll! meow!
[/quote]


EDIT

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1290128033' post='2516953']
There have been a few things bugging me ever since this topic was posted, I couldn't quite put my fingure on it, then I recall that some MK posters have, in the past, mentioned about alliances doing their "laundry" in public, which is, in effect, what this topic is. Something which should have been communication in privated channels.

To echo what has been said numerous times in this topic, nither side can come out smelling of roses here, they are both in the wrong, granted for diffrent reasons.

But let's remind ourselves of MKs views on [i]airing laudry in public[/i][/quote]

Not a single one of those posts makes any argument against an announcement such as this. In fact, one of those posters was arguing the exact opposite. I would know.

Edited November 19, 2010 by northstars

[Fernando12]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1290132777' post='2517007']
I find this very funny, it almost made me forget about the stinch coming from your lies/spin. Someone has an [b]angenda[/b] : )
[/quote]
angenda

Is that contagious? Should I be quarantined?

Everyone here has an agenda. It's called politics. Don't you think it was MK's agenda to expose the "insult" so that people are aware of what NPO did? That is their agenda ITT.

[northstars]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290133270' post='2517014']
words
[/quote]
think before opening your mouth thanks in advance

[D34th]

Looks like this thread became a fight between Fernando12 and MK/ktarthan.

[Chickenzilla]

More like Fernando acting the fool.

[NoFish]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1290124780' post='2516900']
I call them like i see them. You know the expression if it stinks like a troll, acts like a troll, its a troll, and you fine sir fit into that that catagory quite nicely.



Oh really? Ignorant, fine, do you want to play the ignortant card. Your the one not looking at the bigger picture. This is about NPO demasking and kicking out 2 mk diplomats unwarrantly and MK not putting up with it. Somehow you believe that MK is an the wrong? Glad to know how you would defend your diplomats honor and integrity.
[/quote]
No, he really doesn't fit that definition very well, and Hadrian doesn't strike me as particularly ignortant either. I'm supportive over MK in this incident but by God, shut up. You're not doing them any favors by posting this crap. If they can find enough friends like you, it'll put NSO straight out of a job.

[Bloodjewel]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1290133270' post='2517014']
angenda

Is that contagious? Should I be quarantined?

Everyone here has an agenda. It's called politics. Don't you think it was MK's agenda to expose the "insult" so that people are aware of what NPO did? That is their agenda ITT.
[/quote]
Never change, I'd miss your politics.

[Locke]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1290122255' post='2516872']
Posting this shows them who their haters are. I love how you trolls are attempting to paint mk in the wrong when they just reacted to NPO. They actually value their diplomats integrity when the diplomats are in the right, I can assume that this is not understood by the repeatededly trolling in this thread. It honestly speeks greatly about how you value/defend your diplomats when they are unwarrantedly demasked.
[/quote]
You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.
Well, as I said earlier, I got demasked at MK for no particular reason once; shall I get all pissy too? [IMG]http://imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/IMG] Even though (I assume) MK doesn't officially condone the way some diplomats are treated, they are treated lower than the standards being set here nonetheless.

[quote name='Crowdog' timestamp='1290123016' post='2516881']
http://[b]thecastlehall.com[/b]/boards/Smileys/kickass/cheesy.gif
[/quote]
You make kamichi sad.

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1290128394' post='2516960']
Good grief, all this because some NON-diplomats were booted. At most there is never more than an ambassador and possibly an assistant who are actually responsible for embassy relations between alliances. This practice of naming other visiting members as diplomats is merely a convenience of forum masking. But unless the person is the officially designated ambassador, chief alliance Foreign Minister, or their alliance leader then [i]there is no diplomatic incident![/i] At my alliance home I deal with the officially named ambassador with proper diplomatic courtesy and protocol. Everyone else that comes is there only on my sufferance.
[/quote]
Not everyone follows that model, you know. SOS団, for instance, doesn't have any sort of official ambassador system. All ambassadors are ambassadors. However, non-governmental ambassadors (of which we have a few) don't have any more power than members do. But power or not, everyone who visits foreign forums is a representative of the alliance. We're hardly the only alliance to follow that model.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1290155863' post='2517240']Well, as I said earlier, I got demasked at MK [b]for no particular reason[/b] once; shall I get all pissy too?[/quote]

Bolded section is incorrect. Your posting in the leadup to said demasking was incredibly offensive and antagonistic to our delicate sensibilities.

[Locke]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1290156115' post='2517242']
Bolded section is incorrect. Your posting in the leadup to said demasking was incredibly offensive and antagonistic to our delicate sensibilities.
[/quote]
Other than my existence, you mean? This silly grudge of yours needs to end. [img]http://imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/img]
At least NPO didn't change Seerow's name into a gay slur.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1290156600' post='2517248']
Other than my existence, you mean? This silly grudge of yours needs to end. [img]http://imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/img]
At least NPO didn't change Seerow's name into a gay slur.
[/quote]
Yes, I do mean other than your existence. You even made Lime cry.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1290155863' post='2517240']
Not everyone follows that model, you know. SOS団, for instance, doesn't have any sort of official ambassador system. All ambassadors are ambassadors. However, non-governmental ambassadors (of which we have a few) don't have any more power than members do. But power or not, everyone who visits foreign forums is a representative of the alliance. We're hardly the only alliance to follow that model.[/quote]

Ok, just to be straight, everyone in SOS going out and visiting other alliances and masked in the standard embassy system is [b]always speaking for the record[/b] for your alliance?

That's the point of the embassy system. Official words coming from official people. Anyone else masked from the visiting alliances is given a convenience mask so that forum creators are not forced to give everyone visiting a unique mask. The size of NPO means they likely have literally hundreds of visiting people in their masking system. To expect all of those visitors to receive full diplomatic weight is preposterous.

Only official reps speaking the gospel from their alliance leadership from an alliance deserve special treatment. The rest are simply visiting someone else's home on their sufferance.

You may not want to bother with all that at your forum, but you cannot dictate those expectations to other alliances, especially considering the embassy system and protocols have been recognized since the birth of Planet Bob. There was a darn good reason those standards were put in place back in the days before IRC. Because they worked! Otherwise you could have some newb member go a-visiting some other alliance and open their mouth when they got mad at another forum. Would you have alliances go on full alert every time month old members got mad and said to roll out the whole crew?

Their home, their embassy, using rules based in old accepted standards. You don't have to like it but that's how it has always been.

[Banksy]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1290128033' post='2516953']
[IMG]http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad52/Banksycn/emote/025.gif[/IMG]
[/quote]

Uh, well, i'm glad you didn't just cherry pick those threads to find quotes, regardless of their context!

The first thread was a public spat between to groups of former friends (and the MK member, if you note, was encouraging the spat for entertainment purposes), the third was a fake announcement where the MK member was playing along (I hope it wasn't too subtle for you!). The second was what we saw as an underhand attempt to get us to reduce the reps owed and to try and (successfully) make us look bad. None of them seem to fit this situation, do they ;) Here, MK is informing people that there is a diplomatic disagreement with the NPO. We though people would be interested. Despite your assertions that this thread is below you, you have deemed it interesting enough to not only post, but to search through several members posting histories.

So if you're going to try and claim we're inconsistent, at least research properly. And if you're going to run with the "we don't care" argument, it's probably best to not show such a high level of interest yourself.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Banksy