Creative Annihilation

[Haflinger]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1288425460' post='2497068']
The reason its a stupid phrase to have in treaties is because its meaningless.

Your treaty says how YOU view something, not the rest of the world. I could write into a treaty (or charter) that being in a war with my alliances for any reasons means you agree to surrender after 3 days and send us 50k tech.

Its just as stupid and irrelevant, that kind of wording doesn't magically change an attack on somebody else into an attack on you and triggering all your treaties, unless, and this bit is important. The other people involved also agree.

If you win, well you write the history anyway, if you lose you have bigger problems than the E-Lawyer's. So the phrase remains effectively meaningless.
[/quote]
This is a good argument, but it's not the best argument against this phrase.

The best argument is that writing in a treaty that an attack on X is an attack on Y just doesn't make any sense. I can write a treaty that says that if you attack my neighbour's cat it will be an attack on me, but if someone then goes after my neighbour's cat...

They just aren't attacking me. It's stupid.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288308006' post='2495680']
They hit MK for TORN. If you guys didn't want to get attacked, then you had ways out. I remember Hoo arguing with you guys because you wouldn't find them.
[/quote]
MK had two options
1) burn along side friends
2) burn alone

Remember, Hyperion was only hit because no one could get a CB on MK in the first place and they knew it drawing GR into a war would pull MK in.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1288628107' post='2499053']
MK had two options
1) burn along side friends
2) burn alone

Remember, Hyperion was only hit because no one could get a CB on MK in the first place and they knew it drawing GR into a war would pull MK in.
[/quote]
If you really believe that, then you are paranoid, and nothing I say will make a difference.

Hyperion was hit to draw BLEU in.

[Kim Jaym Il]

Wasn't that accomplished by the massive attack on Polar the next day?

(Plus the fact that a lot of Citadel/Continuum leaders have since said that they had nothing/wanted nothing to do with the GGA/Valhalla operation.)

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288658152' post='2499417']
If you really believe that, then you are paranoid, and nothing I say will make a difference.

Hyperion was hit to draw BLEU in.
[/quote]
Then what of the threats Hyperion received that if they didn't find a CB on us, they'd be rolled?

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1288274054' post='2495156']
I think he meant treaty ties. Before noCB, Grämlins were effectively blocked from signing an MDP with MK by TOP and secondarily Continuum alliances (secondarily in the sense that we cared much more about what TOP thought) and therefore there were no treaties binding MK to Continuum or Citadel. However, through GR they were chained into the Polar part of the 'inner circle' so it's only a three-quarter truth.
[/quote]

Why going to GR, MK had a MDoAP with Polaris itself prior to noCB.

[Monster]

No. They did not.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1288666552' post='2499531']
No. They did not.
[/quote]

Give me a second to look for an old manuscript of Lord Sharpe's Treaty Web. Fairly sure the Libraries of the Land of Lusitans kept one

EDIT: I tried and I failed, can't find it. Though I was almost sure that Polaris held a treaty with both MK and ODN prior to noCB. Oh well.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Lusitan

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1288667007' post='2499549']
Give me a second to look for an old manuscript of Lord Sharpe's Treaty Web. Fairly sure the Libraries of the Land of Lusitans kept one
[/quote]
No, we had no treaty with Polar until much later. Most of us wanted them rolled as much as anyone else.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1288668287' post='2499579']
No, we had no treaty with Polar until much later. Most of us wanted them rolled as much as anyone else.
[/quote]

We had no ties to MK at all during NoCB and I resisted signing any formal treaty until a long time after we were out of terms from that war. We currently have no treaty, I would consider us strongly on opposite sides of the three ringed circus that is developing and I strongly suspect that the clueless amongst said alliance would like to roll us again.

As for wanting to see us rolled then or now, MK like everyone else lacked the courage to come and get us themselves. It took Pacifica to get the job done just like every thing else that happens, one of the Orders has to actually do something before the rest of you work up the courage to form a pack and hunt like dogs.

You whinge when nothing happens, you whinge when one of the Orders does anything at all and you could only be truly happy if both Orders were at permanent war with each other while the rest of you ate popcorn from the vast sidelines most of you occupy until a wounded carcass presents itself for easy eating.

Also hello.

[SgtSmurf66]

So Grub what is it your trying to say also hello

[Vol Navy]

Protectorates don't allow treaty chaining Bob?

That's interesting news and really the first I've ever heard of it.

So you can attack a protectorate and if their protectors ally also hits you it's just an aggressive act and not defensive via treaty?

Odd how that NSO stomping a few months ago played out when war was sparked over aggressive action towards a protectorate and a bunch of RoK's allies jumped into the fray. I even thought VE was one of them.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1288670057' post='2499616']
We had no ties to MK at all during NoCB and I resisted signing any formal treaty until a long time after we were out of terms from that war. We currently have no treaty, I would consider us strongly on opposite sides of the three ringed circus that is developing and I strongly suspect that the clueless amongst said alliance would like to roll us again.
[/quote]
Not going to argue this because you're right.

[quote]
As for wanting to see us rolled then or now, MK like everyone else lacked the courage to come and get us themselves.
[/quote]
Terribly sorry, we were far too busy getting rolled at the time because of a mess you caused.

[quote]It took Pacifica to get the job done just like every thing else that happens, one of the Orders has to actually do something before the rest of you work up the courage to form a pack and hunt like dogs.[/quote]
The Order of the Paradox is an Order, I guess! Pacific didn't do all that much to roll you other than pressure garbage alliances like MCXA and Echelon into dropping you and then obstructing things later when everyone else did the actual work.

[quote]
You whinge when nothing happens, you whinge when one of the Orders does anything at all and you could only be truly happy if both Orders were at permanent war with each other while the rest of you ate popcorn from the vast sidelines most of you occupy until a wounded carcass presents itself for easy eating.
[/quote]
I'd be just as happy with the Orders dead and buried to be perfectly honest v[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]v (don't waste your time replying with "heh do it as if you have the balls or some such thing)

[quote]
Also hello.[/quote]
Hello!

I wish you the best of luck in the future without us to act as your shield.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1288674137' post='2499663']
Not going to argue this because you're right.


Terribly sorry, we were far too busy getting rolled at the time because of a mess you caused.


The Order of the Paradox is an Order, I guess! Pacific didn't do all that much to roll you other than pressure garbage alliances like MCXA and Echelon into dropping you and then obstructing things later when everyone else did the actual work.


I'd be just as happy with the Orders dead and buried to be perfectly honest v[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]v (don't waste your time replying with "heh do it as if you have the balls or some such thing)


Hello!

I wish you the best of luck in the future without us to act as your shield.
[/quote]

I appreciate the efforts of so many of your alliance for so many things over time, I am sure we will be fine defending ourselves from your friends and allies. We seem to have been here before and we will no doubt be here again.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1288679739' post='2499727']
I appreciate the efforts of so many of your alliance for so many things over time, I am sure we will be fine defending ourselves from your friends and allies. We seem to have been here before and we will no doubt be here again.
[/quote]

Quite frankly, Polar doesn't even lead a bloc right now, let alone command sufficient power to defend themselves if they're attacked by PB. And that's even if Duckroll goes in on your side.

Really, I quite like NpO, but I've never been able to stand you or your ego, and by the sounds of it you haven't learned much from the political capital you lost in BiPolar.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1288680233' post='2499730']
Quite frankly, Polar doesn't even lead a bloc right now, let alone command sufficient power to defend themselves if they're attacked by PB. And that's even if Duckroll goes in on your side.

Really, I quite like NpO, but I've never been able to stand you or your ego, and by the sounds of it you haven't learned much from the political capital you lost in BiPolar.
[/quote]
Hard to imagine PB having the testosterone fortitude to attack Polar.

[Schmoo]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1288680539' post='2499734']
Hard to imagine PB having the testosterone fortitude to attack Polar.
[/quote]

Even harder to imagine Duckroll having anything to do with Polar.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Schmoo' timestamp='1288684038' post='2499746']
Even harder to imagine Duckroll having anything to do with Polar.
[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Banksy]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1288680539' post='2499734']
Hard to imagine PB having the testosterone fortitude to attack Polar.
[/quote]
*testicular

not really too sure why. random and grub bark an awful lot but they just don't have the ns or the popular support to put up any resistance to a pb attack. and pb are hardly traditional friends of polaris. as the ~new hegemony~ i would have assumed their uncontrollable appetite for world domination would cause them to prey on the weak.

failing that, with goons's reputation as ravenous tech raiders who ignore sovereignty and shun community standards i would have thought they'd be attacking polaris by accident any day now.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1288668287' post='2499579']
No, we had no treaty with Polar until much later. Most of us wanted them rolled as much as anyone else.
[/quote]
Also they wanted you rolled more than anyone else.

It's terribly ironic.

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1288691551' post='2499768']
not really too sure why. random and grub bark an awful lot but they just don't have the ns or the popular support to put up any resistance to a pb attack. and pb are hardly traditional friends of polaris. as the ~new hegemony~ i would have assumed their uncontrollable appetite for world domination would cause them to prey on the weak.
[/quote]
The new hegemony has shown itself to be unwilling to fabricate CBs against anything bigger than TPF.

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1288691551' post='2499768']
failing that, with goons's reputation as ravenous tech raiders who ignore sovereignty and shun community standards i would have thought they'd be attacking polaris by accident any day now.
[/quote]
Oh, it was you who wrote that document. I see.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1288691551' post='2499768']
*testicular
[/quote]

Much appreciated

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1288691551' post='2499768']
*testicular

not really too sure why. random and grub bark an awful lot but they just don't have the ns or the popular support to put up any resistance to a pb attack. and pb are hardly traditional friends of polaris. as the ~new hegemony~ i would have assumed their uncontrollable appetite for world domination would cause them to prey on the weak.

failing that, with goons's reputation as ravenous tech raiders who ignore sovereignty and shun community standards i would have thought they'd be attacking polaris by accident any day now.
[/quote]
True, but even without popular support if GOONS attacked Polaris they would be putting their victims in a defensive position. That would give Polaris more leverage. Also, there was a lot of anti-GOONS sentiment building up during the last few months. It has calmed down recently but if they were to slip up like that again (especially by raiding an alliance like NpO) that might give fence sitters a reason to side against them and support Polaris. PB chances would drop from assured victory to uncertainty.

Edited November 2, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1288686827' post='2499754']
That's exactly what I'm saying.
[/quote]
Then why did you even bring them up?

[Hyperion321]

I agree with this op. Losing a war and getting your membership gutted is what makes an alliance strong, like a forest fire to a forest. That is the reason why we did so many membership purges (over 300 lesser Spartans have been targeted and driven away now). We were never given any harsh terms in a war so we kinda had to do it ourselves, and the results are truly staggering. We've never been stronger than after beating ourselves down.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1288712178' post='2499877']
True, but even without popular support if GOONS attacked Polaris they would be putting their victims in a defensive position.[/quote]
Why would we attack the NpO?

[Kalasin]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1288712583' post='2499881']
Then why did you even bring them up?
[/quote]

Personally, if I were PB, I'd hit NPO, because nobody would back them up. Then I'd hit ex-BLEU, then Duckroll (again, this doesn't indicate my personal views on each of those three - I quite like ex-BLEU.) If Duckroll come to the conclusion that they're going to be hit anyway after NPO and NpO are done with, they may jump in the fight to try and even the odds a little.