Institutional Anarchy, GOONS and Raiding

[Detlev]

What are you serious Schattenman? Your post makes GOONS out to be ruffians. In reality GOONS is comprised of nothing but the finest of gentlemans.

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='Detlev' timestamp='1285300382' post='2462986']
In reality GOONS is comprised of nothing but the finest of gentlemans.
[/quote]

You TAKE THAT BACK!

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Derwood1' timestamp='1285299970' post='2462982']
Jeez Schat you have a lot of time on your hands. Maybe you should use the time to learn how to build a nation, concentrate on the chapter discussing wonder purchases; protip +5 > +4.

Honestly if you were in my alliance I would slap you with a rubber chicken for being obsessed with GOONS and not spending the time on the alliance. YGBSM, how much time did you spend on that waste of pixels?
[/quote]

Oh, it's 2008 all over again, NS jokes are the bees' knees haw haw. Man I love flipping through the yearbook, too. Here, let me hop into peace mode and then you can make some coward mode jokes, it'll be [i]hilarious[/i]!

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285300583' post='2462990']
Oh, it's 2008 all over again, NS jokes are the bees' knees haw haw. Man I love flipping through the yearbook, too. Here, let me hop into peace mode and then you can make some coward mode jokes, it'll be [i]hilarious[/i]!
[/quote]

So you're admitting to being a coward then?

[Hereno]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285298909' post='2462959']
Somebody like you has a lot of dumb to tell a man in possession of my resume to do something, kid.
[/quote]

LOL

You're so full of yourself it's sickening. Resume or no resume, your post (and this thread) is complete and utter garbage. Next time, just put your trash in the can where it belongs like the rest of us, and we can just avoid this whole conversation. Dumb people like me learned those kinds of things before we even entered elementary school; an astute scholar such as yourself shouldn't be having problems with such simple concepts.

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285300583' post='2462990']
Oh, it's 2008 all over again, NS jokes are the bees' knees haw haw. Man I love flipping through the yearbook, too. Here, let me hop into peace mode and then you can make some coward mode jokes, it'll be [i]hilarious[/i]!
[/quote]

Are you using one of your literary devices again? I think this sounds like sarcasm, but with you it's a little tough to tell.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285300583' post='2462990']
Oh, it's 2008 all over again, NS jokes are the bees' knees haw haw. Man I love flipping through the yearbook, too. Here, let me hop into peace mode and then you can make some coward mode jokes, it'll be [i]hilarious[/i]!
[/quote]
Maybe while we're at it we can go back to 2007 and reference camp meatspin too - oh wait.

Note because I'm kind: We don't use camp meatspin or anything of the sort.

[BlkAK47_002]

I find it hilarious how the people telling Schatt that he has too much time on his hands are probably the ones who lurk the OWF all day.

[Biazt]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1285302027' post='2463015']
I find it hilarious how the people telling Schatt that he has too much time on his hands are probably the ones who lurk the OWF all day.
[/quote]
I find it hilarious how devoid of any content this post is; specifically evidence. Especially considering we've got quite a bit of evidence in the OP.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Biazt

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285301877' post='2463013']
Maybe while we're at it we can go back to 2007 and reference camp meatspin too - oh wait.

Note because I'm kind: We don't use camp meatspin or anything of the sort.
[/quote]
Maybe that's part of your problem. (I knew there had to be a few people who'd remember)

Edited September 24, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Biazt]

I'll break this down real quick because I'm bored and it happens to be laughable easy.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285298278' post='2462949']
You say you are making changes now, Biazt told STA you were making changes in June. [/quote]
Yes, we started making changes then and raid incidents began to decline in number relatively quickly (and continues to decline to this day)

[quote]Here are some suggestions, in earnest: Stop letting anyone in Camp Meatspin raid--they're there because they're stupid.[/quote]
Meatspin is from the old GOONS and does not exist in the new GOONS - please stop acting like you have any idea how we operate since you were in the old GOONS for a short amount of time.

[quote]Stop paying reps out of gov pockets, the raider doesn't learn anything. Get rid of the loopholes that let you tell foreign governments that a raider is suspended from raiding when he really isn't and was never going to be. Stop showing your ass every time some minuscule bad thing happens to you when you're out wringing pubby tears from us for kicks.[/quote]
As far as I know every single incident where a raider made a mistake and raided the wrong person, got banned from raiding, then made amends has never made the same mistake. So yes, they do learn. I'm not sure what our ass has to do with anything.

[quote]The point I've proven is that your raiders are out of control and you're not really doing dick about it even if you've really been doing your best, it hasn't worked. Don't tell me what point I'm trying to make, I'm making it.[/quote]
We get your point, it's just wrong and has no evidence to back it up. Raid incidents are down in number because we're doing something about it (specifically not dick).

[quote]MHA has 2.5 times more nations than GOONS, but 1 tenth the bad raids. I'd really stop trying to compare yourselves to other alliances.[/quote]
RV already covered this but MHA is an awful comparison.

[quote]You're in the situation you're in due to your own inability to get it together. Please stop blaming me for your unbelievably high bad raid average.
[/quote]
No one is blaming you for anything other than terrible elawyering.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Biazt

[Locke]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1285293373' post='2462859']
Also, people stopped doing this: [img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-airquote.gif[/img] in mid air years ago. What time capsule did you dig that out of?
[/quote]
I still do.

[dalstrs]

I feel bad for you Schatt.

It's really pathetic, given a month for all this you should be able to do way better at making us look bad.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1285298415' post='2462950']
many,many words
[/quote]

This little rant would work a lot better if it were actually true. Schattenmann started gathering data for this around June 1st per his OP, but the Methrage situation didn't even start until mid-August. Now maybe he has a bee in his bonnet about GOONS for some reason, but it isn't about the Methrage situation, and I really doubt he is afraid of you guys.

[Sephiroth]

I know GOONS do a lot of bad raids, but its interesting to see all the data gathered for people to see. Maybe if alliances start following GOONS precedent on what to ask for reps and go for $90m each time GOONS raid an alliance member it will cause this to stop.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Methrage

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285304271' post='2463045']
I know GOONS do a lot of bad raids, but its interesting to see all the data gathered for people to see. Maybe if alliances start following GOONS precedent on what to ask for reps and go for $90m each time GOONS raid an alliance member it will cause this to stop.
[/quote]

Well, it's a good thing you've been paying attention throughout this whole thread.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285304271' post='2463045']
I know GOONS do a lot of bad raids, but its interesting to see all the data gathered for people to see. Maybe if alliances start following GOONS precedent on what to ask for reps and go for $90m each time GOONS raid an alliance member it will cause this to stop.
[/quote]
Because aiding nuke rogues is totally the same thing as bad raids am I right?

We've dealt with dozens of situations, both us being attacked or people attacking us, and we don't ask for 90m unless there's "secret aid going to Methrage" involved. But facts are so lame and boring, let's just make stuff up instead.

Did you hear GOONS demanded 900b when a rogue ghosted MK and attacked? This totally happened probably.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285299151' post='2462961']
Just curious. Did this thread convince anyone of anything besides the fact that Schattenmann likes to type a whole lot?

No, I'm not talking about you perpetual GOONS haters who will naysay us regardless of the circumstances. You know who you are.

I'm talking about fence sitters, or people who like GOONS. Did this massive wall of words change your mind to the anti-GOONS camp? Did it even make you reconsider your feelings toward us for a moment?
[/quote]

To be honest it showed me 2 things, that GOONS possibly had one of the worst track records in CN history as far as bad raids go, and that you finally seem to be doing something about it.

So...
Boo GOONS
o/ GOONS

[Voytek]

[quote name='MagicalTrevor' timestamp='1285285291' post='2462673']99% of the people who post in here agreeing with you won't have read your OP, they'll have seen lots of words and a few tables and realised just how evil GOONS are.[/quote]
Man you could totally apply this to almost every thread ever.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1285307889' post='2463090']
Man you could totally apply this to almost every thread ever.
[/quote]
[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285282736' post='2462623']
Ok guys, here is what is going to happen. People are going to either hail or criticize this topic, often mindlessly and without actually paying attention to the details, based on their location on the treaty web. People will go GONS . This topic will go around 25 pages without an ounce of valuable discussion.

Ok, now that the ground rules are set... GO!
[/quote]Yesss... everything is happening as I have forseen.

Edited September 24, 2010 by JT Jag

[Ellis]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285299151' post='2462961']
Just curious. Did this thread convince anyone of anything besides the fact that Schattenmann likes to type a whole lot?

No, I'm not talking about you perpetual GOONS haters who will naysay us regardless of the circumstances. You know who you are.

I'm talking about fence sitters, or people who like GOONS. Did this massive wall of words change your mind to the anti-GOONS camp? Did it even make you reconsider your feelings toward us for a moment?
[/quote]

At first I was kinda GOONS
But then your responses explained it, and actually kinad improved my opinion of you guys, which I'm sure you're relived to hear
So yeah, boo Schatt

[Tygaland]

Some information from the Tygalandic Institute of Grant-mongering, Education and Research (TIGER )

Within an alliance the probability of a "bad raid" occuring is proportional to the number of nations in the alliance and inversely proportional to the strictness of raiding rules with the alliance. Let's, for simplicity's sake, call this Zdaat's Law. In recognition of weapons grade stupid.

GOONS started out with a crapload of nations and, from the outside looking in, no real structure in place to keep tabs on raiding and the resultant infestation of stupid. So, under those circumstances ZDaats Law will tell you that there would be a high probability of bad raids. The historic record supports this conclusion.

This will be the case for any alliance with weak raiding rules.

The STA had similar problems, although on a smaller scale, when we allowed raiding for the first time. Over a period of months we refined the rules until we reached the rules we have today. We have little to no instances of bad raids. Another win for ZDaat's Law.

Now, from what I'm reading in this discussion, GOONS are tightening their raiding policy and have seen a reduction in bad raids. ZDaat's Law is on a roll now!

So, as far as I can conclude, from the data available GOONS have done all they can to combat the problem they had with raiding. If alliances take responsibility for bad raids and work to ensure they do not happen in the future then they have done all they can with regards to the issue.

I hope you found this analysis interesting.

[Alterego]

As much as it pains me to say it, great post CoS

[pezstar]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285298278' post='2462949']
You say you are making changes now, Biazt told STA you were making changes in June. Forgive everyone if we're not sure what difference it makes since it isn't working so far.
[/quote]

I really wish you'd stop using our name in this. It'd be cool if you had actual logs, rather than completely contextless snippets that are missing key pieces of vital lines.

[Captain Flinders]

Wow, I'm impressed Schatt. That's a lot of legwork right there and regardless of whether or not people try to belittle the findings, they speak for themselves. They clearly speak to either complacency or ineptitude.