An Open Discussion On The Nature Of Trade Sanctions

[Sabertooth]

If ye were a smart scallywag ye would get trades on the grey team, so ye cannot get sanctioned.

(The word filters make me sound like a pirate. What be this?)

Edited September 19, 2010 by Sabertooth

[Baltus]

I would say, this would all be a case-by-case basis. Below would be me general outlook on them.

If ye declared war on a tiny AA, then why use sanctions? Keep them open, just in case, something happens.

If a tiny AA, declared war on [b]ye[/b], then teach those buggers a lesson.

If ye declared/or were declared on by a large/recognized fleet: Use the Sanction, but use it wisely. Theoretically, ye would use it on their largest nations, their best fighters, banks, etc. (if ye know who they be). Also, it adds to the drama, and it lets those e-lawyers bicker about it for at least a week after the war ends.

Also, on green ( ), we avoid sanctioning during peacetime, unless:
1.)We no like him.
2.)For a close Friend (and only after they pay us in panda food).
3.)We're bored.


EDIT: + Green

Edited September 20, 2010 by Baltus

[Beefspari]

[quote name='EEjack' timestamp='1284720646' post='2456520']
In Methrage's case specifically it is unneeded since GOONS convinced Planet Bob that 90M is fair return for aiding Methrage.
[/quote]
It's not unneeded. Although we've gotten 90m on three separate occasions he STILL got secret aid again just a few days ago. Despite people complaining that 90m is extortion, it doesn't seem to be a deterrent whatsoever.

On-topic, I believe sanctions to always be acceptable to use on anyone you don't consider an alliance. I'm not particularly in favor of sanctions being used in full-scale wars if only for the fact that you can't use them on everybody so there's not much point in trying.

[eejack]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1284972645' post='2458802']
It's not unneeded. Although we've gotten 90m on three separate occasions he STILL got secret aid again just a few days ago. Despite people complaining that 90m is extortion, it doesn't seem to be a deterrent whatsoever.

On-topic, I believe sanctions to always be acceptable to use on anyone you don't consider an alliance. I'm not particularly in favor of sanctions being used in full-scale wars if only for the fact that you can't use them on everybody so there's not much point in trying.
[/quote]

The reason why Methrage is such a poor example is GOONS declared war on his alliance ... so it is an alliance v alliance war. Either you have to go with, sanctions are a valid part in alliance v alliance wars OR GOONS is breaking an accepted practice and should be villified for doing so. Since there have been sanctions laid by many colors I suspect we have to go with..."sanctions are a valid part in alliance v alliance wars" based on popular action ( not obviously popular opinion ).

As far as "we can't get them all so why bother"? Consider the chaos and disruption caused by having your trades taking out from under you during wartime. You are not getting those trades back if those folks are not members of your alliance ( collateral damage tends not to return to get hit again ). If you combine spying with sanctions, especially in a war across color boundries, sanctions could be a good tool, kind of like nukes were when only the top 5% had them.

If you look at the Kerberos Nexus v GOONS war just sanctioning 25% of Kerberos Nexus has pretty much eliminated their nuclear forces.

( again however - the disruption of sanctions is too unfocused and broad to be used at all and they should be removed from the game entirely
as we have seen a. they don't work b. harm everyone but the target c. can be replaced with spying and politics )

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1284972645' post='2458802']
It's not unneeded. Although we've gotten 90m on three separate occasions he STILL got secret aid again just a few days ago. Despite people complaining that 90m is extortion, it doesn't seem to be a deterrent whatsoever.
[/quote]
It may not be a sufficient deterrent. However, remember that Methrage only has six foreign aid slots, and there are 21,103 nations on this fair planet of ours. You could successfully deter 21,043 nations from aiding him, and the remaining nations would still be able to fill his aid slots for 10 cycles.

Admittedly not all those nations have FACs, but that wonder is becoming more common as nations run out of wonders to buy.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284155704' post='2449118']
So far I've been on sanctioned on GOONS request on White (STA), Black (Umbrella), Purple (Legion), Maroon (GOD), Yellow (FAN), Aqua (MK), Brown (Carp Diem) and Blue (MCXA). Pink, Green and Red are the only ones who don't have senators who have used trade sanctions in an alliance war at GOONS request so far.

Edit: Almost forgot about the sanction from Legion on Purple.
[/quote]
Legion removed the sanction on purple and apologized for their mistake, which was a nice move on their part to correct their mistakes and it does boost my opinion of them. Legion having the thinking capacity to realize the sanctions GOONS have had placed on me aren't justified and fixing their mistake makes them better of an alliance than a lot of these other alliances who mindlessly sanction and unsanction at GOONS request.

o7 Legion

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285032400' post='2459485']
Legion removed the sanction on purple and apologized for their mistake, which was a nice move on their part to correct their mistakes and it does boost my opinion of them. Legion having the thinking capacity to realize the sanctions GOONS have had placed on me aren't justified and fixing their mistake makes them better of an alliance than a lot of these other alliances who mindlessly sanction and unsanction at GOONS request.

o7 Legion
[/quote]
You've made a powerful enemy today Legion, I hope it was worth it.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285041269' post='2459612']
You've made a powerful enemy today Legion, I hope it was worth it.
[/quote]
Why don't you declare war tonight? See how it goes.

[Schattenmann]

Legion has weathered hardships better than other self-proclaimed powerful alliances in its time.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285041269' post='2459612']
You've made a powerful enemy today Legion, I hope it was worth it.
[/quote]

So because Legion exercises it's team color sovereignty and doesn't cooperate they're you're enemy?

+1 respect to Legion

[Joseph Black]

1. Do you support the use of trade sanctions on an unaligned or one-man AA nuclear nation that has initiated a nuclear conflict against a recognized alliance?

Yes, but it should work both ways. If they established alliances uses nukes first their member should be sanctioned.


2. If so, do you support the use of trade sanctions on a fairly unorganized nuclear-equipped micro-AA (below 5 members) that has initiated a nuclear conflict against a recognized alliance?

Yes, but I think it should go both ways. If the organized alliance uses nukes first they too should be sanctioned.

3. If so, do you support the use of trade sanctions on a reasonably organized nuclear-equipped AA that has initiated a nuclear conflict against a recognized alliance, but still has less members than what your alliance's charter defines as an "alliance"?

Again yes, it goes both ways though

4. In any case, would you support the use of trade sanctions as a tool of war in a conflict between two or more recognized alliances?

Maybe.... If its both sides throwing nukes, no point in it.

BONUS QUESTION: If you answered no to that last question, consider this scenario: a large alliance declares war on an entire color-based trading or defense bloc that collectively possesses majority control of their sphere (NOIR, Blunity, ect), does that bloc have the right to use its influence in their color's senate to sanction the attacking alliance?

If the attacking alliance uses nukes first, yes, if not no

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285041269' post='2459612']
You've made a powerful enemy today Legion, I hope it was worth it.
[/quote]
Interesting you would publicly declare Legion an enemy for exercising sovereignty and control of their own senate seat, rather than let you use it at your whims. Throughout my war with VE they never saw a need to use sanctions despite having a senate seat themselves, yet you guys try getting me sanctioned on every color through threats or inaccurate reasons given to senators to sanction me. Seems you guys convinced VE to sanction me green in another attempt to make up for your lack of fighting ability.

[assarax]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285041269' post='2459612']
You've made a powerful enemy today Legion, I hope it was worth it.
[/quote]

Are you being sardonic?











Also, totally worth it.

[Lincongrad]

GOONS is welcome to discuss their case with me at any time. I'll be in #thelegion a lot or they can simply send someone over to the forums and shoot me a PM.