Poaching

[ktarthan]

I constantly poach whoever I can.

By the way, you should join GOONS.

[Sun WuKong]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1282864476' post='2432122']
I constantly poach whoever I can.

By the way, you should join GOONS.
[/quote]
Well, dang! Lemme go ask my overlords and see if I can.

[DeadAnimal]

[quote name='Batallion' timestamp='1282860341' post='2432070']
On the idea of "Poaching", one should note that almost every alliance that's ever been formed has poached without getting caught. Especially splinter groups, like for example FnKa right now must've poached off The Resistance, and countless other examples. Asking your friend to join your alliance from another alliance is poaching.
[/quote]

Keep your accusations to yourself there good sir. Beyond the factual inapplicability of the term 'splinter alliance' to FnKa as the majority of our NS did not come from The Resistance, no message violating the sovereignty of tR was sent before, during, or after our reformation.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='DeadAnimal' timestamp='1282887693' post='2432536']
Keep your accusations to yourself there good sir. Beyond the factual inapplicability of the term 'splinter alliance' to FnKa as the majority of our NS did not come from The Resistance, no [b]message violating the sovereignty of tR[/b] was sent before, during, or after our reformation.
[/quote]

Here's the part I never quite understood.

[Batallion]

[quote name='DeadAnimal' timestamp='1282887693' post='2432536']
Keep your accusations to yourself there good sir. Beyond the factual inapplicability of the term 'splinter alliance' to FnKa as the majority of our NS did not come from The Resistance, no message violating the sovereignty of tR was sent before, during, or after our reformation.
[/quote]

Oh true, one guy formed FnKa and everyone else joined without any prior planning (poaching). I'm not trying to hammer FnKa, it was merely an early example of what every one of us does or has done to form an alliance, especially when a band of people leave an alliance together.

[DeadAnimal]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1282888020' post='2432539']
Here's the part I never quite understood.
[/quote]

I never asserted I supported the convention that poaching is a valid CB. However there had been past accusations of such associated with our re-DoE, and I find it best to use terms as they are used by those making accusations, especially when avoiding war is your goal.

That said, the argument that poaching is a violation of sovereignty is indefensible. This argument emphasizes the content of the message as the issue, namely the express request to join an alliance. However, in order to claim a recruitment message is a violation of an alliances sovereignty, it requires the assumption that members themselves are the property of the alliance. Extending from this assumption however, issues arise. If a nation is the property of an alliance, and the act of them leaving to join another alliance when messaged violates that alliance's sovereignty, then by inference the simple act of them leaving the alliance, for any reason, is a violation of sovereignty. The conclusion of this argument is that individual nations are not free to leave an alliance whenever they wish, a standard that is unacceptable.

The argument that poaching is an annoyance and that anti poaching standards protect members from unwanted correspondence is also indefensible. If this were true, every unsolicited TC request or tech buyer/seller request would be just as valid of a CB as sending a recruitment message, as its not the content of the message that is objectionable, rather its status as unsolicited. This is a standard that is equally unacceptable, as it would create an unreasonable barrier to the establishment of TCs and tech deals, both largely reliant on unsolicited messaging.

So, the short of it is the burden of ignoring messages lies with the recipient. If it so morally outrages you, delete it. Or ask the sender not to send anymore messages to you. Or quit being so easily butthurt.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

All these posts and of course no one yet has the balls to just state the truth without playing around.

Of course this is an affront. Why do people join alliances in the first place? To stop the incessant recruitment spam. Doh.

[DeadAnimal]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1282891366' post='2432576']
All these posts and of course no one yet has the balls to just state the truth without playing around.

Of course this is an affront. Why do people join alliances in the first place? To stop the incessant recruitment spam. Doh.
[/quote]

It says a great deal then, by inference, that the reason you are in NoR is to avoid recruitment spam. Generally at least wanting to be there would kind of motivation I would expect from my alliance mates. And spam as an 'affront' is still a far overstated argument.

[Rokula]

Poaching is what insecure groups and/or cults are afraid of I do assume. If your group of allies/friends/cultists were so united and sound in said doctrines then poaching would never be a problem. Its just like a cult(religion). Those (wo)men who call themselves (wo)men are so scared and lack the faith in their words and practices that they would respond with threats and/or violence, but they are nothing more than worms hiding in a shell of valor.


Henceforth if there be a alliance that's against poachers than that alliance is weak and you should jump to the nearest alliance that offers you what you are worth.



So says I Rokula the Eternal Fascist, Thrice Prince of Africa, the Americas and Suomi.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1282286595' post='2424201']
Why is any of this considered a casus belli? Convenience? Insecurity?
[/quote]
Put yourself in the shoes of an alliance leader. People are spamming your members asking them to leave the alliance for another. How do you see this? I would see it as an attack on the AA and an attempt to weaken the alliance or destabilise the government. At best it shows a lack of respect to your alliance and your alliance leaders. Its no different than repeated orchestrated raids on your members.

[Alistair Thorrington]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1282860094' post='2432066']
Everyone is poached, to a degree, passively. It's only the active poaching that people seem to hate so much. Let's face it though, if your members leave through poaching, your own alliance must have been doing something wrong in the first place, so I'm okay with it.
[/quote]

This is my stance, too. (Now you all know what the great Me thinks)

[Skap Q]

Quit accusing us Batallion, unless you have evidence, before we decide to do something you might regret.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1282901771' post='2432664']
Its no different than repeated orchestrated raids on your members.
[/quote]

I would say it is vastly different. I can 100% avoid being poached by these dastardly poachers by just saying no.

Here's my point, the "this is a cb btw" is usually directed at the annoying and largely unsuccessful forms of "poaching", spamming, while the successful and ultimately the only one causing what you could call actual damage, splinters, IRC conversations, are considered ok.

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Batallion' timestamp='1282860341' post='2432070']
On the idea of "Poaching", one should note that almost every alliance that's ever been formed has poached without getting caught. Especially splinter groups, like for example FnKa right now must've poached off The Resistance, and countless other examples. Asking your friend to join your alliance from another alliance is poaching.
[/quote]

I like you.

When it's a one-time thing, it's no big deal. When it's a deliberate attempt to undermine and weaken an alliance, then, in my opinion, it's a valid CB *cough cough*.


[quote name='Skap Q' timestamp='1282919977' post='2432781']
Quit accusing us Batallion, unless you have evidence, before we decide to do something you might regret.
[/quote]

[DeadAnimal]

[quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1282920763' post='2432793']

When it's a one-time thing, it's no big deal. When it's a deliberate attempt to undermine and weaken an alliance, then, in my opinion, it's a valid CB *cough cough*.

[/quote]

Your distasteful and baseless insuinations aside, this ignores the hypothetical possibility that its a large scale deliberate action, but is not done to undermine or weakedn an alliance. By your standard, what then?

[Alterego]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1282920218' post='2432785']
I would say it is vastly different. I can 100% avoid being poached by these dastardly poachers by just saying no.

Here's my point, the "this is a cb btw" is usually directed at the annoying and largely unsuccessful forms of "poaching", spamming, while the successful and ultimately the only one causing what you could call actual damage, splinters, IRC conversations, are considered ok.
[/quote]
Every alliance is different and has different opinions. Just be aware some alliances think this way and if an alliance [u]repeatedly[/u] spams their members then they could be asking for trouble. You might not like it but some people dont like being told they cant raid a whole sphere even AA none on that sphere. Life is full of things we dont like.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Alterego

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='DeadAnimal' timestamp='1282927355' post='2432870']
Your distasteful and baseless insuinations aside, this ignores the hypothetical possibility that its a large scale deliberate action, but is not done to undermine or weakedn an alliance. By your standard, what then?
[/quote]

They most certainly aren't baseless, though the poaching in question certainly was distasteful.

And you're going to try to tell me that there'd be a wide-scale attempt to poach members from another alliance, without trying to harm that alliance? I'll believe that when I see that.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='DeadAnimal' timestamp='1282890079' post='2432557']
The argument that poaching is an annoyance and that anti poaching standards protect members from unwanted correspondence is also indefensible. If this were true, every unsolicited TC request or tech buyer/seller request would be just as valid of a CB as sending a recruitment message, as its not the content of the message that is objectionable, rather its status as unsolicited. This is a standard that is equally unacceptable, as it would create an unreasonable barrier to the establishment of TCs and tech deals, both largely reliant on unsolicited messaging.
[/quote]

If people sent me the number of unsolicited TC requests or tech buyer/seller requests as alliances sent me unsolicited messages to join their alliance during the time I wasn't in an alliance (or in a small one - but those are just called "merger" offers - so obviously different *sarcasim*), yeah - it would become a CB by many people's standards too.

Tell you what, everyone who is already in an alliance but thinks it should be okay to poach people who are already in an alliance - write "It's okay to send me messages asking me to join your alliance" on their nations. Then all of you can spend your time trying to recruit each other

[Land of True Israel]

Poaching, or attempting to poach, whether or not it leads to a member leaving their alliance to join yours, is a gesture of complete disrespect towards that alliance, pretty much like a slap in the face. It can rightfully be considered as a hostile action, as you are essentially attempting to take something that belongs to them, and/or to "weaken" them while you make your own stronger. In my opinion, the size of the nation, or how much it actually impacts the alliance is irrelevant.

Although the validity of a CB is subject to individual interpretation, I think it's safe to say that most of the CN community adhere to the standard that poaching is clearly an act of aggression.

[Hime Themis]

Gentle Persons
I feel a simple idea has been missed in this discussion. Poaching as defined by the OP may or may not constitute a valid CB but it is most certainly RUDE. I know a unique concept. If you post recruitment messages on the OWF (an advertisement) even in a disbandment thread it may be poor taste but it is not rude. If you target specific nations however then you are giving the single figure salute to the Alliance your are attempting to recruit from and that is rude. Now I am sure that the big bad tough guys of Digiterra will laugh at such a genteel concept but maybe if some of these genteel ideas were carried forward then all our interactions including wars would be more fun for everyone.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Land of True Israel' timestamp='1282950185' post='2433189']
It can rightfully be considered as a hostile action as you are essentially attempting to [b]take something that belongs to them[/b], and/or to "weaken" them while you make your own stronger[/quote]
So basically members of an alliance are property and not independent states [people] whose interests the alliance is supposed to further. Gotcha. Sad thing is, this is probably the most honest and straight forward post of the lot. Much more direct than the others who have posted defending the idea that poaching is a CB.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Hyperbad

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Land of True Israel' timestamp='1282950185' post='2433189']
Poaching, or attempting to poach, whether or not it leads to a member leaving their alliance to join yours, is a gesture of complete disrespect towards that alliance, pretty much like a slap in the face. It can rightfully be considered as a hostile action, as you are essentially attempting to take something that belongs to them, and/or to "weaken" them while you make your own stronger. In my opinion, the size of the nation, or how much it actually impacts the alliance is irrelevant.

Although the validity of a CB is subject to individual interpretation, I think it's safe to say that most of the CN community adhere to the standard that poaching is clearly an act of aggression.
[/quote]

Right conclusion, but I do agree with those who argue that a member doesn't "belong" to an alliance.

The disrespect comes, imo, by not respecting the individual member's choice to belong to the alliance he or she chose. By the very act of joining a particular alliance, the leader is making a statement of "I WANT to be here." There are enough alliances to chose from, after all. Thus unless there is something written by the leader that he/she is looking to join another alliance (or the alliance has disbanded formerly), to attempt to recruit him or her out of his or her choice is harassment.

Again, there is an easy way to solve this. Everyone who thinks it is not harassment, simply write on your nations "Feel free to send me recruitment messages" in a similar fashion to people who want tech deals write "looking to buy/sell tech."

No one taking my suggestion? I rest my case.

Oh, and for those people who would leave an already established alliance that you are a part of by a recruitment message (and I'm assuming we're NOT talking about already established friendships) - I suggest looking around and finding a group. You are not where you should be.

Edited August 28, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Jinnai]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1282946964' post='2433141']
If people sent me the number of unsolicited TC requests or tech buyer/seller requests as alliances sent me unsolicited messages to join their alliance during the time I wasn't in an alliance (or in a small one - but those are just called "merger" offers - so obviously different *sarcasim*), yeah - it would become a CB by many people's standards too.
[/quote]
So, basically your statement is the DoWs for poaching are CN's war against spam?

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283021657' post='2433996']
The disrespect comes, imo, by not respecting the individual member's choice to belong to the alliance he or she chose. By the very act of joining a particular alliance, the leader is making a statement of "I WANT to be here." There are enough alliances to chose from, after all. Thus unless there is something written by the leader that he/she is looking to join another alliance (or the alliance has disbanded formerly), to attempt to recruit him or her out of his or her choice is harassment.[/quote]
The interesting thing is how this quote and the very last one are at odds. You acknowledge some are considering leaving their alliance or having doubts yet say it's disrespectful to them because their membership says they want to be there. It's not telling them they have to leave or are wrong for their choice but recruitment messages present options which might appeal to what the recipient wants most even if they are already happy where they are.

[quote]Again, there is an easy way to solve this. Everyone who thinks it is not harassment, simply write on your nations "Feel free to send me recruitment messages" in a similar fashion to people who want tech deals write "looking to buy/sell tech."

No one taking my suggestion? I rest my case.[/quote]
If you make repeated requests to be taken off of a recruitment list then I certainly agree it's harassment if continued with intent (let's face it, mistakes happen) though I do think people blow it out of proportion to the kind of issue it's seen as. I'm not sure what case you think you had though. I think you throw around the word harassment a bit much here though and stretch its meaning from intent to cause the target to become destraught to the mere possibility of causing an annoyance existing no matter how small (if it even exists) and whether one knows it will or not.

[quote]Oh, and for those people who would leave an already established alliance that you are a part of by a recruitment message (and I'm assuming we're NOT talking about already established friendships) - I suggest looking around and finding a group. You are not where you should be.[/quote]
So then why be opposed when the potential for them finding a place they'd rather be is sent to them?

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Jinnai' timestamp='1283023443' post='2434023']
So, basically your statement is the DoWs for poaching are CN's war against spam?
[/quote]

Yes. (again, I'm not talking about the "we're already friends" situation)

For anyone who has a problem with that, for exhibit "A" and "B" for the court of public opinion to consider: the stated CB's of the past two formerly declared wars that have taken place on Planet Bob (Six Million Dollar War and The Cluster #*%& War)

If the various alliance leaders wish to raise the standard of what is, by "common practice" considered an acceptable reason for war, personally speaking - I would applaud However, since that hasn't happened yet, "excessive spam" is at least as good as what I've observed over the past year or so.