Decree of the Sith

[Learz]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1281419756' post='2409237']
Thats so cute to try to hang that ragtag bunch of folks who called themselves non-alliances around us. But then again, reality tends to warp itself to what you want to see anyway.
[/quote]
As one who was there during that time, I can safely say you are talking out of your arse.
What else goes on in this private little world of yours? You secretly rule Planet Bob? NSO started this war? We're all meanies for pointing out the holes in your reasoning?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281425188' post='2409297']
You're missing the point.

NSO entered in a state of war with Rok and TENE once that aid was sent. The only thing to negotiate from that point onwards was NSO's surrender.
[/quote]
Actually, RoK entered in a state of war with NSO once they attacked an NSO member.

[shilo]

[quote name='Fulgrim' timestamp='1281430734' post='2409389']
This is the only good thing to come out of this thread. Excellently put.
[/quote]
Plus when someone from the Hegemony comes knocking at your door and attacks a member they consider a rogue, don't ask for due process, better attack that member yourself, and offer your surrender before they attack you for "providing a CB".
Oh, this feels so old-school in many ways, yeah, the good old days, we got them back.

Edited August 10, 2010 by shilo

[Daimos]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281398805' post='2408664']
I would defend my ally. I understand that this concept is lost on you.

Seriously, you guys need an mhawk to show you how it's done properly.

Self-serving cowards, the lot of you.
[/quote]

Invicta have proven they are a great ally to its allies. That is all that matters. I for one am proud to be allied with them.

[Williambonney]

[quote]I would defend my ally. I understand that this concept is lost on you.

Seriously, you guys need an mhawk to show you how it's done properly.

Self-serving cowards, the lot of you. [/quote]

Coming from the same person who sanctioned our members while in peace mode so his alliance could achieve their own personal agenda, these words are as believable to me as clinton's were when he said he didn't inhale.

Edited August 10, 2010 by William Bonney

[Alexander The Second]

just got a question...


did either side have screen shots to prove there claims???

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1281448958' post='2409603']
just got a question...


did either side have screen shots to prove there claims???
[/quote]
NSO does, Rok does not unless they are holding out for some reason.

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451001' post='2409629']
NSO does, Rok does not unless they are holding out for some reason.
[/quote]


can ya link me too it??

I would like to see them

thanks for the reply

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1281451244' post='2409638']
can ya link me too it??

I would like to see them

thanks for the reply
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&st=740&p=2409544&#entry2409544"]Here you go[/url]. According to some IRC logs, Hoo's only evidence that Sedrick did any spying is the suspicious of the TENE guy he's was fighting with. There's no exposed spy ops, ya know, hard evidence. NSO isn't totally in the clear here and they admit as much. This shouldn't have become a full-scale war; it's just aggressive warmongering from Hoo in my opinion.

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451520' post='2409640']
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&st=740&p=2409544&#entry2409544"]Here you go[/url]. According to some IRC logs, Hoo's only evidence that Sedrick did any spying is the suspicious of the TENE guy he's was fighting with. There's no exposed spy ops, ya know, hard evidence. NSO isn't totally in the clear here and they admit as much. This shouldn't have become a full-scale war; it's just aggressive warmongering from Hoo in my opinion.
[/quote]


Ya hard to say if sedrick spied first or last. But if he did go first the other guy should have taken a screen shot, along with screen shots of messages and other events between there nations so times could be compared. Also someone from NSO could have asked sedrick to take a screen shot of his own sent messages / incoming messages. Granted they can be altered prior to taking the screen shot, but they help put down some foundation, and of course something is better then nothing.


Over all my opinion of this war stands... nothing real substantial caused it... both sides really lack evidence to prove there points, even to the point of being negligent to provide evidence for claims of innocence or guilt on there party or the others.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Antonio Salovega VI' timestamp='1281431350' post='2409399']
Non-aligned nations get spied upon and raided though in this case the latter did not happen and the former is very questionable.
[/quote]

How is the former questionable? The screenshot of the spy attacks TWO days prior to his "aggressive wars" has been posted in this thread a few times over - and each time it's been brought up it's been just as quickly dismissed for the "aggressive wars" .. Seems no one really wants to discuss that piece of evidence.


[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451520' post='2409640']
Hoo's only evidence that Sedrick did any spying is the suspicious of the TENE guy he's was fighting with. There's no exposed spy ops, ya know, hard evidence.
[/quote]
[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1281392541' post='2408471']
He was spied on by the RoK protectorate. Thats why he attacked them.
[img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2376/spyop.png[/img]
[/quote]

Edited August 10, 2010 by Rayvon

[m3g4tr0n]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281384602' post='2408193']
Don't forget their cowardly allies.

You know....like Invicta.
[/quote]

Why are we mentioned in nearly every war thread? I think [i]someone[/i] still has a crush on us.

Seriously though, let's focus on the real issue: our fellow Sith brethren. Was there cause for a war? It seems a bit murky, and the evidence isn't really convincing. I believe this really boils down to RoK and company wanting to roll NSO. They found an excuse, and now they're going forward with their plans, because they [i]want[/i] to.

I would like to see them stop hiding behind their CB, man up, and admit that they're only doing this to destroy NSO.

Edited August 10, 2010 by m3g4tr0n

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='ShotgunWilly' timestamp='1281311794' post='2405252']
o/ NSO. Good luck!

Gotta love that 4 alliances are needed to take down one! Reminds me of another time...
[/quote]
4 alliances aren't needed, and that was a silly statement. The only truth in what you said is that 4 alliances are having fun bashing NSO, even though not all of them are needed.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='m3g4tr0n' timestamp='1281454440' post='2409704']
I would like to see them stop hiding behind their CB, man up, and admit that they're only doing this to destroy NSO.
[/quote]
I agree, it was RoK's evil plan to say "don't aid that rogue or we'll war you" and then somehow [s]mind control[/s] [s]hypnotize[/s] force NSO's hand in aiding the rogue. I blame RoK for making NSO aid a rogue they were told not to aid. Although I have to question the usefulness of an evil plan that requires your enemy's cooperation in doing what you told them not to do. Reverse psychology?

[tamerlane]

I would feel sorry for NSO if they weren't so damn culpable. Good job guys, you finally earned your just reward-- a curbstomping.

Edited August 10, 2010 by tamerlane

[m3g4tr0n]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281454808' post='2409714']
I agree, it was RoK's evil plan to say "don't aid that rogue or we'll war you" and then somehow [s]mind control[/s] [s]hypnotize[/s] force NSO's hand in aiding the rogue. I blame RoK for making NSO aid a rogue they were told not to aid. Although I have to question the usefulness of an evil plan that requires your enemy's cooperation in doing what you told them not to do. Reverse psychology?
[/quote]

Of course they were going to aid their member. RoK admitted to not having solid proof that he was a rogue. They were going on what TENE said. Had solid proof been given before or during the discussion between Hoo and Heft, things might have been different. As it is, that didn't happen. Still, I find it interesting that RoK was so quick to jump into a war. If I was in Hoo's position, I'd have asked for proof before running off and dragging my treaty partners into a war...unless I had wanted a reason for a war. In that case, as soon as my protectorate came whining to me, I'd had gone in guns blazing.

Reverse psychology? I think not.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='m3g4tr0n' timestamp='1281455896' post='2409735']
Of course they were going to aid their member. RoK admitted to not having solid proof that he was a rogue.
[/quote]
Maybe this is just my naive opinion as a GOONS gov, but if someone who just joined GOONS was at war with someone's protectorate (not that we accept nations at war), and a government member of that protectorate came and said "Hey don't aid this guy or we'll start a war," my first instinct wouldn't be "hey I should aid that guy."

What more proof do you need other than A) he's obviously in wars against someone's protectorate, and B) a member of government came and said not to aid him because he's a rogue.

You know what's hilarious is we had this discussion here a few weeks ago where I didn't take a gov's word on something and was chewed out up and down by the general public as a result, and here we are in a situation where NSO not only didn't take a gov seriously but ignored the extremely blatantly obvious wars he was in on top of that. And that's still not enough proof?

Hey, NSO has every right to accept and aid whoever they want. Personally I think accepting people at war is a horrible idea on general principle. If NSO wants to do it though, more power to them. Just remember you're carrying in all the baggage those guys bring with them.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Beefspari

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1281454797' post='2409713']
4 alliances aren't needed, and that was a silly statement. The only truth in what you said is that 4 alliances are having fun bashing NSO, even though not all of them are needed.
[/quote]
Actually those 4 alliances were needed. And they admit to it earlier in the thread.

I know, what a shame.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' timestamp='1281457148' post='2409767']
Actually those 4 alliances were needed. And they admit to it earlier in the thread.

I know, what a shame.
[/quote]

That's what happens when you bulk your alliance with inactives just to fluff your numbers and feel good about yourself.

[Wad of Lint]

The bottom line is the aid sent was a misjudgment. We have readily admitted such throughout this thread. However, we still contend RoK was quick to jump on the attacks, even after we had warned continued protection until further information was provided. NSO warned RoK that the member would be protected until proper discourse was achieved. RoK warned NSO aid sent would be an act of war. We both have the same argument, the difference is RoK has the power to back theirs up, and we do not. However, NSO does not set policies we are unwilling to fight for. Win or lose.

Frankly, we can sit here and argue hypotheticals, what ifs, and spout each of our opinions for the next 20 pages. It will not change the situation. At the end of the day any peace agreement or resolution will need my signature and Hoo's. As long as we continue to disagree on whether or not NSO can choose who it's members are, and whether or not we can confirm their punishment status aside from a simple "claim" there will continue to be war.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Wad of Lint

[R&R-Viking]

Hoo didn't say "aid, and we'll negotiate more" he said "aid and we'll smash you". Why are people still arguing that Hoo didn't negotiate further?

[LucasSnow]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281425188' post='2409297']
You're missing the point.

NSO entered in a state of war with Rok and TENE once that aid was sent. The only thing to negotiate from that point onwards was NSO's surrender.
[/quote]

Didn't RoK hit a NSO memeber first though? Before any Aid was sent or any talks were had? Seems the fault lies with RoK then, for not contacting NSO before launching said attacks. Oh logic, how you fail to be recognized by most.

By this line of thought RoK had already started an aggressive war against NSO before any of these talks or Aid even occurred.

Edited August 10, 2010 by LucasSnow

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281459227' post='2409813']
Hoo didn't say "aid, and we'll negotiate more" he said "aid and we'll smash you". Why are people still arguing that Hoo didn't negotiate further?
[/quote]

And we said prove he's a rogue. That was not done. Will you throw a member to the wolves over hearsay? Till we had proof, he was an accepted member. All it would have taken was a little effort.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281459589' post='2409824']
And we said prove he's a rogue. That was not done. Will you throw a member to the wolves over hearsay? Till we had proof, he was an accepted member. All it would have taken was a little effort.
[/quote]

Again, the only thing that involves NSO in this is what happened [i][b]AFTER[/b][/i] he joined NSO. You all should have done the legwork to find the truth [i][b]BEFORE[/b][/i] you admitted him, like every other alliance does.

What happened was a failure of your admittance policy. You're a soveriegn alliance, you can do what you wish, but don't cry when your dumb policy gets you smacked around.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281459801' post='2409831']
Again, the only thing that involves NSO in this is what happened [i][b]AFTER[/b][/i] he joined NSO. You all should have done the legwork to find the truth [i][b]BEFORE[/b][/i] you admitted him, like every other alliance does.

What happened was a failure of your admittance policy. You're a soveriegn alliance, you can do what you wish, but don't cry when your dumb policy gets you smacked around.
[/quote]

So are we changing the CB now? I thought we were at war because we aided the guy. Not because of our policy. If this is the case, I suggest you reword your CB a little bit.