MHA Announcement

[Jocko Homo]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1280726594' post='2397992']
This is one of the most ignorant posts I have seen in this announcement. I suggest you change your comment before making a bigger fool of yourself. [img]http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/467/nsosmugsmall.png[/img]
[/quote]

Sorry, I got my facts mixed up. He left the NPO AA to try to hide and escape into peace mode while NPO was getting it's $@! whooped. (April 28, 2009) but it was not to join the NSO [i]at that time[/i]. It was reported by Corinan (of NSO) that's how I attached NSO to Dilber 7 months earlier than when he finally left NPO for NSO.

So to correct my earlier statement, Dilber left NPO while they were at war to try to hide and get into peace mode (while wearing a dress and carrying a baby) but his story is that he left NPO "so he could fight" (by getting into peace mode?) but he didn't leave to join NSO, he carried "The Dark Knight" AA.

[quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1240893265' post='1479254']
I'm curious as to how the Body Republic of Pacifica feels about Dilber and Triyun leaving during open warfare. I mean if this guy is considered a traitor, they must be considered super-mega-ultra traitors, right?
[/quote]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55874&view=findpost&p=1479254

Edited August 2, 2010 by Jocko Homo

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1280727923' post='2398019']
My vote is for the inanimate carbon rod, but that's just me.
[/quote]

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I have to agree that an inanimate carbon rod would run Gramlins better than Ramirus.

[Diablofan]

Sad to see this happen MHA, wish things with Gre worked out better.

*mumbles about Ram and messing over Gre*

Good luck to both MHA and Gre in the future.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1280727923' post='2398019']
My vote is for the inanimate carbon rod, but that's just me.
[/quote]
I wish I could remember where that line is from.

[Ardus]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1280728945' post='2398051']
I wish I could remember where that line is from.
[/quote]
It's from Palmettia's hit primetime animated comedy, the Sampsons. The lovable oaf of a dad, Plato, gets beaten to glory by an inanimate carbon rod on two separate occasions.

[Kalasin]

Oh I get it now!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Homer

Edit: Dammit, ninja'd.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kalasin

[Sal Paradise]

I like how this is now about who's the bigger traitor. The answer is NPO, but don't let that get you down MHA. You guys are up at ODN levels, which is plenty to be ashamed about.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1280729137' post='2398063']
I like how this is now about who's the bigger traitor. The answer is NPO, but don't let that get you down MHA. You guys are up at ODN levels, which is plenty to be ashamed about.
[/quote]
ODN has signed then shattered two practically unbreakable treaties? That's news to me and I fancy myself a CN historian.

[Venizelos]

it is ridiculous to state that MHA betrayed gremlins.

in fact, one could say that gremlins betrayed MHA by changing to such an extent, and assuming a very different role in the relationship than what was originally implicitly agreed.

[LOLtex]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1280724049' post='2397929']
Signing an "unbreakable" treaty is just the set-up for a [i]really[/i] long joke. I'm glad we finally got to see the punchline.

MHA you slay me.
[/quote]

About what I thought when it was originally signed, even though TOP was all happy in the pants for both Gre and MHA at the time. People change, that's just the nature of people. Chalk this up to a lesson learned, eh MHA?

edit: I'm not gonna lie, I really like the way you post 'round these parts, Ardus.

Edited August 2, 2010 by LOLtex

[Baldr]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1280720533' post='2397872']
Heh, they might as well not be. Gremlins is not even classified as an alliance by most raiders and are probably going to get raided.[/quote]

I really don't think that's likely to happen. Gramlins is still in a position to do a lot of damage themselves, and even without Harmlins, MHA might not take kindly to it. And MHA wasn't Gramlins only friendly alliance.

I agree that "They are weak, lets go get them" is how raiders think, but they also look at the risks, and this looks like a high risk venture.

I'm a bit surprised at how many people are upset with MHA over the treaty being canceled. Looks to me like Gramlins is the cause of it, not MHA.

I do think that signing a treaty that says "It can't be broken" is a bit silly. If you really want to be so close you can't ever change your mind, you should merge. If you aren't going to merge, then thinking that there could *never* be a situation where either of you would want to break the treaty makes little sense to me.

But the people running MHA now and the people who signed that treaty aren't the same people. And the same is obviously true on the Gramlins side. So getting upset at the people who canceled the treaty now, I don't get. I give them a bit of credit for waiting until the war was over before they canceled. They could have dumped Gramlins months ago and allowed IRON's friends to get involved.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Ertyy' timestamp='1280708349' post='2397611']
Pretty much this. You can take your moral superiority and shove it you know where, MHA. You didn't see me calling to cancel the treaty just because a bunch of you were incomprehensibly crying that we were putting you in an insecure spot.

Edit: Oh, ya. And saying something in a member-level channel the day it is set to go down is not, exactly, due diligence as far as notifying me goes, no matter how you try to spin it.
[/quote]

Given how many times you told MHA to shove it on this particular issue, I don't think you have much place to complain. Though MHA is fairly worthless as far as having free will goes, they still deserved to be treated respectfully and reasonably; with Ramirus in power, and with you at his side, I'm sure they finally---months and months after the rest of us---gathered the meager courage necessary to accept the fact that they wouldn't be finding that from the Gramlins anymore.

That said, I still don't respect MHA much; this situation was yet another in which it took them many months, and an unreasonably large amount of impetus, to gather up the cojones necessary to take a political action on their own. Of course, I respect the Rämlins even less.

Oh, and Ertyy---you're really not one to be talking on the subject of "moral superiority", as you manage to act self-righteous in the extreme in just about everything you say on the political scene.

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1280706535' post='2397569']
If anyone DIDN'T see this coming, you're not paying attention. What's more interesting is what happens next from Gremlins.
[/quote]

What will come next from the Gramlins will be a stream of self-righteous invective from Ertyy, MatthewPK and Ramirus, invective that will no doubt be completely devoid of any admission or notion that they may have held any responsibility for the breakdown in relations with MHA. They'll act like they're the blameless victims, blah blah blah. Then again, the fact that they're regularly so irrational is the reason why they now collectively compose 25% of the membership of that quaint little micro-alliance of theirs.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Crymson

[Lurunin]

alright so why is everyone on MHA's back bout this?

i see a few reasons for the cancellation FINALLY happening and it not being broken earlier:

#1- they wanted to extend protection to GRE to ensure that they didnt get hit by IRONs allies

#2- they wanted to try and preserve the former friendship and brotherhood that both alliances had for eachother (though it seems that a few "select" members disagreed on that :/)

optional #3, they could've always been biding time for a coup who knows

_____________________

huge mistake was made signing an "unbreakable" treaty to begin with, should've just had like a month cancellation period as an example but even bigger one would've been to keep GRE as allies after they've proven there is absolutely NO form of loyalty, friendship or dignity of the sort left in them

[LOLtex]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1280732413' post='2398102']
alright so why is everyone on MHA's back bout this?

huge mistake was made signing an "unbreakable" treaty to begin with, should've just had like a month cancellation period as an example but even bigger one would've been to keep GRE as allies after they've proven there is absolutely NO form of loyalty, friendship or dignity of the sort left in them
[/quote]

You just answered your own question.

[Kowalski]

Good move MHA, and possibly the only thing that could give Ram some good publicity.

The original agreement was signed on both sides by those who aren't in the same alliances or who don't even play the game anymore, and I'm sure MHA gov have been quietly cursing them in the nicest possible way over recent months. It's the same as the NPO situation, do you stick with someone who treats you like dirt and goes against the spirit of the treaty (and in NPO's case actually breaks an admittedly minor clause of the treaty) because of a promise mistakenly made in the past or do you draw a line under it and move on no matter what those who don't know about the situation think of you?

The two treaties were signed very close to each other for reasons that were though to be justifiable at the time. Yeah it turned out badly, but MHA haven't signed a treaty like this since the NPO debacle so it's safe to say that they've already learned their lesson.


EDIT: Don't forget about a new MHA sanctioned alliance pip

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kowalski

[Remaliat]

And with this announcement MHA spits on history.

Good riddens to the last bit of respect I had for MHA.

[caligula]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1280732572' post='2398108']
Good move MHA, and possibly the only thing that could give Ram some good publicity.

The original agreement was signed on both sides by those who aren't in the same alliances or who don't even play the game anymore, and I'm sure MHA gov have been quietly cursing them in the nicest possible way over recent months. It's the same as the NPO situation, do you stick with someone who treats you like dirt and goes against the spirit of the treaty (and in NPO's case actually breaks an admittedly minor clause of the treaty) because of a promise mistakenly made in the past or do you draw a line under it and move on no matter what those who don't know about the situation think of you?

The two treaties were signed very close to each other for reasons that were though to be justifiable at the time. Yeah it turned out badly, but MHA haven't signed a treaty like this since the NPO debacle so it's safe to say that they've already learned their lesson.


EDIT: Don't forget about a new MHA sanctioned alliance pip
[/quote]


<3 Kowalski. Come back.

[iamthey]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1280724446' post='2397937']
I remember a certain uncancellable Order of Orders treaty.
[/quote]

It should be worth noting that the OoO was signed early in the game when our legalist standards for treaties were still in their infancy. There are two parts of the treaty that are often pointed to, the first being the opening lines 'hence forth unto perpetuity', and second that there was no cancellation clause. In response to the first line, many NPO treaties began with that line, even later ones which included cancellation clauses, all that meant was the treaty simply did not expire at any point. As for the lack of a cancellation clause, the treaty was signed before most treaties even had cancellation clauses and to that point the practice had simply been to cancel them with no notification period.

As important to actual text is precedent as a guide for accepted procedure. Cybernations has an obvious unwritten code of procedure, surrounding almost everything we do, and in judging the actions of an alliance it is important to consult this. (Such examples being the various CB's we have in war, and the accepted limits on Terms of Surrender) In this case I would say that the precedent allowed for the OoO to be cancelled. Moreover I would say that intent of the OoO was never to be an 'unbreakable' treaty, albeit both parties originally did not foresee a point where it would need to be cancelled.

This stands in contrast with both the NPO-MHA treaty and the Harmlin Accords. The NPO-MHA treaty had an explicit one year cancellation clause, and the Harmlin Accords was explicitly intended to be an 'eternal' treaty. While the OoO's eternal nature is based on interpretation and implication, the nature of the two MHA treaties is explicit and fairly transparent.


[quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1280725786' post='2397961']
So it's pretty obvious to everyone now that the NPO forums have a link posted to this thread telling all the drones to wobble in here and express their "outrage".


[/quote]

Is that typically something they do over at FAN?

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1280729137' post='2398063']
I like how this is now about who's the bigger traitor. The answer is NPO, but don't let that get you down MHA. You guys are up at ODN levels, which is plenty to be ashamed about.
[/quote]

This is really kind of a silly statement. Maybe you could flesh it out a bit, clarify where the parallel actually is.

Edited August 2, 2010 by iamthey

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Remaliat' timestamp='1280732861' post='2398110']
And with this announcement MHA spits on history.

Good riddens to the last bit of respect I had for MHA.
[/quote]
Any comment on the behaviour of the Grämlins towards their 'brothers' over a sustained period of time, or is that just reserved for MHA since they took the brunt of it with a smile on their face until deciding enough was enough? Is it that you can behave how you like inside of a treaty but it's the one who actually pulls the plug that's the dishonourable bad guy?

[Divi Filius]

To make this thread even more confusing I'm just gonna go ahead and agree with both sides here.

On the one hand you can't really fault MHA for wanting to get rid of this treaty. They have realised by now that eternal treaties are a capital mistake and that Grämlins are far from an ideal partner (not much debate there). On the other hand, MHA can't really complain about the flak they've been receiving here since it's pretty much the expected result of cancelling a [i]'treaty that cannot be cancelled'[/i], no matter how valid their reasons.

In the end MHA has made a mistake and has both paid for it (PR wise) and learned from it (I hope).

[The Warrior]

A tough but necessary move MHA. Best of luck to both parties.

[Remaliat]

You are cute Kowalski but you don't wait 24 hours after a war ends and then abruptly violate a treaty. Some may call it class for not abandoning them, I call it cowardice and being short sighted for not allowing them to recover from their charlie foxtrot.

[Eden Taylor]

[quote name='Remaliat' timestamp='1280734657' post='2398133']
You are cute Kowalski but you don't wait 24 hours after a war ends and then abruptly violate a treaty.
[/quote]

Why not?

[Remaliat]

#1 Violating a treaty in any way is flat out wrong, Mind you this is the third time this has happened (Although 1 of them was under my watch)
#2 You are basically giving the finger to the alliance that has sought to protect preserve and grow you as any big brother would. Now when they come back scarred from battle and beaten down you turn your back on them.

[Eden Taylor]

[quote name='Remaliat' timestamp='1280735027' post='2398141']
#1 Violating a treaty in any way is flat out wrong, Mind you this is the third time this has happened (Although 1 of them was under my watch)
#2 You are basically giving the finger to the alliance that has sought to protect preserve and grow you as any big brother would. Now when they come back scarred from battle and beaten down you turn your back on them.
[/quote]

I don't even know where to begin to dissect this horrible mess of assumptions.