Red Raiding Safari

[deSouza]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='21 July 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1279739823' post='2382983']
If I posted a topic with the OP as "Hey guys, go tech tech deal with GOONS nations" does that mean I organized every single deal that a nation makes with GOONS?
[/quote]

Heh. Classic strawman. Expected more of you.

Simple as that: you are calling for an attack on an entire sphere, quite a few of those attacks are [b]organized[/b] by alliances that are in the whole deal, and you claim the only organization involved was "hey, lets raid an entire sphere"!

What, do you think the peanut gallery is stupid?

[GeoLauzier]

I hope people get some techs and land out of it. Those nations should get something to protect them from raiders like an alliance.

In after LUE reference, time to abandon ship.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1279740707' post='2383021']
A different argument would be nice, WC. That's all I'm saying.

I mean surely, acting like that is a bit stale... why not focus instead on how the people being raided are being robbed/extorted/whatever other verb instead of saying something like "Wow, people [i]tech raid[/i]! How terrible!"
[/quote]

Those kind of go without saying, and I'm sure the main argument has been about how this is simply a shot at NPO and how the "new guys in charge" are acting like the bullies they claimed they'd been fighting against for a while.

[deSouza]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' date='21 July 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1279740689' post='2383020']
FWIW, the substantive difference between the GGA raid and the Red Safari is that the GGA raid was directly initiated by the government of the GGA whereas the Safari is a grass roots effort. If Archon shows up and says "Yes, we let NPO keep the policies that allowed it to protect red unaligned nations, but we now tire of their moralizing pretense and are demonstrating to them the limits of their ever shortening reach" then the comparison would be 100% accurate. Until then, it's not.

What we are witnessing is a very different phenomena, one that [i]was[/i] specifically fought for in the Karma War. What we are seeing is the freedom of individual nations within an alliance to exercise freedom without repercussions against their alliance. And with MK especially, this is nothing new. We are supposed to accept the Mushroom King's actions and words as the things that [i]actually[/i] matter, and ignore the misbehavior of their basic members.

Now as maddening as that is to accept, that's simply the reality of the matter. My suggestion to Red Dawn (and my final words in this thread) are that if you have a problem with the behavior of the Red Safari, you ought to take it up with the leaders.
[/quote]

So, the law of the new order is to simply claim something is grassroots and make it look like it has no apparent organization when you want to do something questionable?


[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4mS133rdMA/SltL9OMKIOI/AAAAAAAAADg/A7t5TL-XBBs/s400/bart.jpg[/img]

Edited July 21, 2010 by deSouza

[Aurion]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='21 July 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1279740878' post='2383029']
Those kind of go without saying, and I'm sure the main argument has been about how this is simply a shot at NPO and how the "new guys in charge" are acting like the bullies they claimed they'd been fighting against for a while.
[/quote]

Well they aren't doing a very good job of it, then.

And I still maintain that if NPO couldn't see this coming a mile away, they need some serious help.

Which is why I think it was a bait, because it takes a [i]lot[/i] of stupidity to be so ignorant of the prohibitively likely consequences of playing something up like that. And I don't think NPO's leadership is stupid, so.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Aurion

[tamerlane]

deSouza, hows the tinfoil hat holding up?

[Corinan]

[quote name='deSouza' date='21 July 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1279741008' post='2383032']
So, the law of the new order is to simply claim something is grassroots and make it look like it has no apparent organization when you want to do something questionable?


[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4mS133rdMA/SltL9OMKIOI/AAAAAAAAADg/A7t5TL-XBBs/s400/bart.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Too damn cowardly to come out and say, "Yeah we organized a tech raid on red, what the hell are you going to do about it, NPO?" They're the "bad guys" now but they suck at it. Freakin' amateurs, man.....

[flak attack]

[quote name='deSouza' date='21 July 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1279739575' post='2382975']
Relevant detail.
[/quote]
tbh, it happens every few months in MK. Someone goes "Hey, we can raid red now, right?" and then everyone else goes "...Oh yeah, we can raid red... brb". Cue stampede of MK members raiding red. That's pretty much what happened here. Then of course, people decided to make a big deal out of it, and people that usually don't pay much attention to things went "Oh, hey, I haven't raided in a while, I should do that."

Edited July 21, 2010 by flak attack

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='21 July 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1279739068' post='2382960']
The doctrine protects an entire sphere of people, whether they want it or not, or even know that it exists.

If it's possible to determine the protection and rights of people without them even signing or knowing about it, does that mean we could draft up a doctrine giving everyone permission to raid unaligned red? If so, which one trumps the other?
[/quote]
Are you stating that the doctrine is illegitimate because there are people protected that are unaware of their protection? I suppose Sethikstan can now open all of her preschools to foreign barbarians to pillage and molest our children because they don't yet know that they are protected by the sweat and blood of their nation's soldiers.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1279741129' post='2383035']
Well they aren't doing a very good job of it, then.

And I still maintain that if NPO couldn't see this coming a mile away, they need some serious help.

Which is why I think it was a bait, because it takes a [i]lot[/i] of stupidity to be so ignorant of the prohibitively likely consequences of playing something up like that. And I don't think NPO's leadership is stupid, so.
[/quote]

Whether it's a good job or not is up to personal opinion. But of course not everyone can argue as well as you or I

And the point about it being bait or not is not really relevant. These new "karma" forces are now acting as the new bullies on the block and it was their own choice whether to pro-actively organize a raid on a whole color sphere just for a cheap shot on an alliance they already punished quite a bit. They're getting called out for it, and fair play to that.

[deSouza]

[quote name='tamerlane' date='21 July 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1279741178' post='2383038']
deSouza, hows the tinfoil hat holding up?
[/quote]

Tinfoil? I'm under the impression that when you give political support to something you're responsible for it.
You [b]did[/b] give political support to this, didn't you?

Perhaps its time to put the jester hat aside and start wearing the fine [b]gentleman[/b] hat.

[quote name='flak attack' date='21 July 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1279741221' post='2383041']
tbh, it happens every few months in MK. Someone goes "Hey, we can raid red now, right?" and then everyone else goes "...Oh yeah, we can raid red... brb". Cue stampede of MK members raiding red. That's pretty much what happened here. Then of course, people decided to make a big deal out of it, and people that usually don't pay much attention to things went "Oh, hey, I haven't raided in a while, I should do that."
[/quote]


Every time someone comes claiming they are "raiding" alliances or organizing "safaris" you'll see me claiming they are !@#$%^&*ting.
Cojones, get them.

Edited July 21, 2010 by deSouza

[Prodigal Moon]

If there's one thing that actually has become clear from this thread, it's that MKer's either don't understand why their alliance is doing what it is, or can't find a strong enough argument in support of it to stick to one. You should all stick to spamming the smugface and making cutesy/snarky comments. It's what you do best. Leave the speechifying to Archon.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Corinan' date='21 July 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1279740837' post='2383025']
Why do we always argue, Merrie Melodies?

To be clear, I don't give a damn if you're gonna tech raid weak and defenseless nations. If they can't defend their tech then it's not really their tech, but at least call it for what it is.And it's rather clear that this raid was organized for no other reason to than to piss off Pacifica. But yeah folks, keep pulling that tigers tail. No alliance has a longer memory or holds a grudge quite like the New Pacific Order does. Enjoy having the upper hand while it last. You're going to get hammered someday.
[/quote]

Dude, what part of "this is not alliance organized" don't you get?
We don't argue per say, but members of our respective alliances seem to love to hurl insults back and forth, we might as well get over that, no?

[Corinan]

[quote name='deSouza' date='21 July 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1279741495' post='2383048']
Tinfoil? I'm under the impression that when you give political support to something you're responsible for it.
You [b]did[/b] give political support to this, didn't you?

Perhaps its time to put the jester hat aside and start wearing the fine [b]gentleman[/b] hat.
[/quote]

You were hitting dangerously close to the truth, so he threw out the "tinfoil hat" line in an attempt to discredit. A classic maneuver. You're nothing more than a raving madman!

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='21 July 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1279741564' post='2383053']
Dude, what part of "this is not alliance organized" don't you get?
We don't argue per say, but members of our respective alliances seem to love to hurl insults back and forth, we might as well get over that, no?
[/quote]

That wasn't really directed towards \m/ or GOONS so much as it was towards LUE. GOONS and \m/ will readily admit to being amoral alliances and have my respect for that.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Corinan

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='deSouza' date='22 July 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1279740841' post='2383026']
Heh. Classic strawman. Expected more of you.

Simple as that: you are calling for an attack on an entire sphere, quite a few of those attacks are [b]organized[/b] by alliances that are in the whole deal, and you claim the only organization involved was "hey, lets raid an entire sphere"!
[/quote]
See this?

[quote name='flak attack' date='22 July 2010 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1279741221' post='2383041']
tbh, it happens every few months in MK. Someone goes "Hey, we can raid red now, right?" and then everyone else goes "...Oh yeah, we can raid red... brb". Cue stampede of MK members raiding red. That's pretty much what happened here. Then of course, people decided to make a big deal out of it, and people that usually don't pay much attention to things went "Oh, hey, I haven't raided in a while, I should do that."
[/quote]

[quote name='deSouza' date='22 July 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1279740841' post='2383026']
What, do you think the peanut gallery is stupid?
[/quote]
I think people are stupid.

[nippy]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='21 July 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1279741386' post='2383043']
Are you stating that the doctrine is illegitimate because there are people protected that are unaware of their protection? I suppose Sethikstan can now open all of her preschools to foreign barbarians to pillage and molest our children because they don't yet know that they are protected by the sweat and blood of their nation's soldiers.
[/quote]

Do you generally look for hidden meaning and/or intentions in questions instead of answering them?

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='deSouza' date='21 July 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1279741495' post='2383048']
Tinfoil? I'm under the impression that when you give political support to something you're responsible for it.
You [b]did[/b] give political support to this, didn't you?
[/quote]

Tamerlane applied to MK about an hour ago.

[Aurion]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='21 July 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1279741437' post='2383045']
Whether it's a good job or not is up to personal opinion. But of course not everyone can argue as well as you or I
[/quote]

Oh my, I'm blushing.
[quote]
And the point about it being bait or not is not really relevant. These new "karma" forces are now acting as the new bullies on the block and it was their own choice whether to pro-actively organize a raid on a whole color sphere just for a cheap shot on an alliance they already punished quite a bit. They're getting called out for it, and fair play to that.
[/quote]

You have a point, but they're still not doing so hot. I suppose it's fair though since [s]most[/s] pretty much all arguments in favor of mass-raids suck too.

The only relevance for me in regards to believing it was a bait is that rising to it and pulling this was not the greatest idea ever... specially since some of the people doing it are allies.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Aurion

[Voytek]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' date='22 July 2010 - 05:45 AM' timestamp='1279741538' post='2383052']
If there's one thing that actually has become clear from this thread, it's that MKer's either don't understand why their alliance is doing what it is, or can't find a strong enough argument in support of it to stick to one. You should all stick to spamming the smugface and making cutesy/snarky comments. It's what you do best. Leave the speechifying to Archon.



[/quote]

Or maybe this really is just a grassroots thing and everyone has their own opinion of it and why we're doing it rather than some centralised power structure telling us why it's being done. Maybe.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' date='21 July 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1279741538' post='2383052']
If there's one thing that actually has become clear from this thread, it's that MKer's either don't understand why their alliance is doing what it is, or can't find a strong enough argument in support of it to stick to one.
[/quote]
Everyone has their own reasons for doing something. This wasn't a centralized activity. No one said, "Hey, go out and do this because xxx". People are going to argue based on their reasons.

EDIT: And of course, I'm channeling Voytek.

Edited July 21, 2010 by flak attack

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='21 July 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1279741564' post='2383053']
Dude, what part of "this is not alliance organized" don't you get?
We don't argue per say, but members of our respective alliances seem to love to hurl insults back and forth, we might as well get over that, no?
[/quote]

You seem to be mistaken with who I am talking to in this thread. Perhaps my syntax is a bit off. I am talking to the individual participants of Red Safari. As far as I know, no individual alliance sanctioned these raids.

But don't let this be a marker to end your hate. Keep hating. It keeps you alive.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Jrenster

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='21 July 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1279741386' post='2383043']
Are you stating that the doctrine is illegitimate because there are people protected that are unaware of their protection?[/quote]
I'm saying it's illegitimate because it dictates the actions of people who didn't sign it (\m/, GOONS, MK) when dealing with other people who didn't sign it (all unaligned and microalliances on red). Can I too make a doctrine, and say anyone who wants to is allowed to raid unaligned red nations? I don't need anyone to sign it after all. Especially not the people who it would be determining the rights and futures of.

[Prodigal Moon]

[quote name='Voytek' date='21 July 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1279741916' post='2383074']
Or maybe this really is just a grassroots thing and everyone has their own opinion of it and why we're doing it rather than some centralised power structure telling us why it's being done. Maybe.
[/quote]
(& Flak Attack)

If that's the case, then people might want to avoid throwing the term "we" around when talking about their justifications.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1279741879' post='2383071']
You have a point, but they're still not doing so hot. I suppose it's fair though since [s]most[/s] pretty much all arguments in favor of mass-raids suck too.

The only relevance for me in regards to believing it was a bait is that rising to it and pulling this was not the greatest idea ever... specially since some of the people doing it are allies.
[/quote]

For some reason I don't think you guys care that much about your allies doing this

And well, guilty by association has long since been an argument against the ex-hegemony. Wonder how well that will work in the future when you actively support this, and not just by way of having a treaty with them.

[shilo]

[quote name='deSouza' date='21 July 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1279741008' post='2383032']
So, the law of the new order is to simply claim something is grassroots and make it look like it has no apparent organization when you want to do something questionable?


[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4mS133rdMA/SltL9OMKIOI/AAAAAAAAADg/A7t5TL-XBBs/s400/bart.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Yes. Make insults and threats, as long as you are not gov, and your gov says "he isn't gov" you can do what you want.