The Dolomus Files

[Ardus]

Over the past few weeks I've noticed a surprising resurgence of interest in the history of the Viridian Entente. Much of this interest has focused on decisions made by the Entente during my Lordship there, a period stretching across the pivotal stretch of 2008 leading up to the "War of the Coalition" or "NoCB". Since what y'all are talking about has less to do with the current Viridian leadership than it does with me individually, I feel as though I should open up the forum to questioning. But first, please bear with a couple of preemptive answers.

[b]Why did you abandon the New Polar Order?[/b]

I've actually had a couple of substantial discussions with a Polar in the past week or so over just this subject (among others). I will reproduce my message to him below momentarily, but first a short answer. My primary goal as Lord was simple and focused squarely on the past: ensure that a "Green Civil War" type event did not occur again. All other things came second. This objective required two things. First, Viridia's activist, moralist desires had to be balanced with the need for it to be out of the crosshairs. Second, those aiming the crosshairs had to be subverted. Polaris, and more specifically Sponge, made achieving either extremely difficult.

[quote][The VE-NpO] treaty was canceled after the FIST war but before the Chickenzilla incident. It was canceled because:

1) Myworld's refusal to even entertain the thought of letting SCM's hi-jinks and subsequent attack on FIST with almost no heads-up really ticked me off. To this day I consider one of the most disrespectful things I've ever suffered in CN. The lack of notice is also why I canceled with zero heads-up, the one thing from the affair I regret.

2) Doing nothing would have reaffirmed VE as an NpO lacky, the latter capable of running right over the former in affairs.[/quote]

The obvious irony here has been pointed out to me repeatedly and I assure you, it became self-evident in very short... Order. By bucking the Polar Puppet image we strode right on into a Pacifican Puppet reputation. Anyway, continuing on...

[quote]3) As NpO had been playing mediator in VE-GGA relations, VE had been trying to cool NpO-GOD tensions. Had it been just that the status quo could have been suffered, but Sponge and Myworld had also been blustery toward Citadel, who we were trying to build a strategic relationship with, and One Vision. Sponge was making enemies out of the whole world and I had little interest in allowing VE to get drug into a strategic suicide we could see from a mile away. It was either side with Polaris all the way through, which would be rough, ditch Polaris at the advent of war, which was beyond unacceptable, or disassociate earlier, which was unpleasant but better than the other two options. The attack on FIST eliminated my remaining confidence in Sponge's ability to navigate the political arrangement and confirmed the third course of action.

We decided to cancel the treaty and I began pestering Ironchef to have One Vision issue some kind of condemnation or punishment as well. VE was rolled for bad assumptions in the past so a concrete assurance that NPO & Co. was in line with Viridia's position was, in my mind, essential. Once it was beyond evident that they'd issue a punishment (NpO's ejection from One Vision), I declared the cancellation to minor objection in VE Parliament (and moderate objection by general membership).[/quote]

I can't speak to the thought process or decisions of One Vision, but the argument that it directed or led VE to its decision in the FIST War is false. It is however true that I knew of OV's decision when I declared the cancellation.

[quote]One Vision's aggressive disdain for Polaris didn't become a major problem until the Chickenzilla incident (after all, BLEU vs OV would have been fine if it weren't also BLEU vs SF/Cit). UmbraeNoctum informed Cornelius about CZ's activity with, implying an active desire from him (and by extension, NPO) that we somehow act on it. He didn't identify Umbrae and just stated the source was from NPO (UN would praise me for keeping him secret in a private query during my chat with Sponge revealing his identity to me, which kind of pissed me off because it meant I had to start actually lying).[/quote]

[b]So you accepted information!? Spy...[/b]

Almost every treaty above a NAP has an intelligence clause.

[quote]When I approached Moo and the rest of One Vision about it, they more explicitly suggested a response would be appropriate. VE had nothing to gain from a confrontation. Nonetheless, the FIST offense was still fresh and One Vision clearly wanted more action, so I called Sponge into the channel with the rest of One Vision's leadership there to "mediate". Had Sponge offered even the slightest, most worthless concession I'd have accepted, claimed it to be a rejection of CZ's behavior, and taken off. I'd vented that desire to One Vision in a separate channel (along with my enormous frustration). A slim hope that proved to have already starved to death. Sponge and I ripped each other until I threw him out for telling me to go $%&@ myself. One Vision dropped all ties with NpO shortly thereafter.[/quote]

Any attempt to construe this event as anything other than following cues would require spinning beyond even my capacity. One Vision had multiplied the strength of my diplomatic response to FIST by many factors; failing to return the favor would have been extraordinarily dangerous. So I provided the reason they were looking for and Sponge went "Tick tock". Polaris general membership didn't deserve to be demonized like it was in the wake of the first CZ incident.

[b]So you admit to being an opportunist coward?[/b]

Yep. Remember when I wrote "all other things came second" earlier? Pride and honor are included in "other things". They were tools to be used, not ends to be reached. Make no mistake, however, both form the core ideals of Viridia and I've caught plenty of flak from Viridians for not embodying them entirely during my administration. Hell, I caught flak at the time.

[quote]The decision to make war (twistedly enough over Chickenzilla) came while I was still taking heat for ZIPP and very shortly after I'd announced my intent to resign (with Corn as my successor). Kybernetes informed NPO they had our full military support when informed and asked about it, getting us assigned to MK. I complained about his dedicating the alliance to what looked like a bad war (against MK without a CB? Uh...) but accepted it because attempting to renege on the pledge would have been, again, suicidal. I tried to come up with some way to play MK up as a villain because I'm obsessed with public relations and ended up writing a pretty awful DoW. I'd follow through with my resignation from executive office and leave altogether shortly thereafter.[/quote]

[b]So... did you ever like the Orders?[/b]

I'm pretty much ripping this question from another conversation. The answer is yes. I meant every word about "Pax Pacifica" and every pro-Pacifican propaganda bit I generated up until the conclusion of the Green Civil War. After that, I swore to see the three parties directly involved burn: GGA, GOONS, and NPO. In what order was unnecessary. Siding with some to see the others fall from power was implicit in the enormity of the task.

Polaris commanded even greater respect up until Sponge went nuts. Even now, with the exception of a good stretch there in the Bi-Polar war, I respect Polaris quite a bit. From what I hear Penguin is a swell fellow, but to be honest I haven't ever really interacted with him.

[b]Why do you hate VOX?[/b]

I have a hard time arguing against their eventual effectiveness, but I maintain that they were unnecessarily abrasive toward those sympathetic with their goals. I believe (though I could be mistaken) that the reasoning is their manner would and did drive anti-Pacifican elements out of the shadows and into action. I contest that many anti-Pacifican diplomatic moves took longer to occur for concern of being directly associated with VOX. For whatever overlap our eventual goals may have had, VOX represents the radical, hyper-idealistic militancy I rejected as Lord and, to a lesser extent, still reject today. VOX would argue that to be so unwaveringly resolute is courageous and to be aspired to. I would argue that refusing to bend will render one irrevocably broken right soon; refusing to give in the means to reach ones ends isn't "courage", it's stubborn and at times outright stupid. But that's all I have to really say about that.

[b][u]So, ask away.[/u][/b]

Rip into me, ask questions, do what you will. Please be patient for responses as it is late and tomorrow is a busy day. I would ask that Viridians allow me to respond to questions and not attempt to intervene on my behalf. I'd also ask that questions orient toward WotC and prior, as I cannot address decisions made by Cornelius.

Happy hunting.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1277010553' post='2343435']

I'm pretty much ripping this question from another conversation. The answer is yes. I meant every word about "Pax Pacifica" and every pro-Pacifican propaganda bit I generated up until the conclusion of the Green Civil War. After that, I swore to see the three parties directly involved burn: GGA, GOONS, and NPO. In what order was unnecessary. Siding with some to see the others fall from power was implicit in the enormity of the task.
[/quote]

So, you're traitorous scum. Glad you can at least admit it.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1277010553' post='2343435']
[b]So you admit to being an opportunist coward?[/b]

Yep.
[/quote]

Thread over.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Geoffron X' date='20 June 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1277010906' post='2343442']
So, you're traitorous scum. Glad you can at least admit it.
[/quote]
Cheers. To villainy.

[Sandwich Controversy]

Tell me more about your Lordship in the noCB War.

[Moridin]

I have a question that has been bugging me for some time now.

Why do you capitalize "VOX"? Maybe this is just a pet peeve of mine but I can't for the life of me understand it.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='20 June 2010 - 01:19 AM' timestamp='1277011128' post='2343447']
Tell me more about your Lordship in the noCB War.
[/quote]
My part in it ended with the DoW. Figured I'd paved the road to it, might as well be the face of it, too. God, that was an awful DoW. The most over-the-top trash I've ever put out, and I've put out some over-the-top material. The rest of government was already very well prepared to take over command since I'd given them ample notice of my intent to resign and depart.

[quote]Why do you capitalize "VOX"? Maybe this is just a pet peeve of mine but I can't for the life of me understand it. [/quote]

Habit of capitalizing three-letter acronyms. Forgot it's "Vox".

Edited June 20, 2010 by Ardus

[Haflinger]

You do realize that the Ardus-Sponge log where you demanded Sponge release Chickenzilla got paraded around as an example of Polar abuses, right?

Speaking for myself, that VE would stoop so low as to accuse someone of [i]spying on a forum where former members post resignation letters[/i] was one of the major blows as far as I was concerned to the whole idea that VE represented any kind of moral movement.

[Mathias]

I enjoyed reading this, and it's nice to see your perspective. At the time, VE was the only alliance I thought actually had a reason to drop their treaty with Polaris. Naturally, I still stand by that opinion.

[Goldie]

Seeing as you are now an outsider (albeit someone we remain close to), how do you feel the current leadership of VE differs from the ways in which you led the Entente up until your resignation close to two years ago? In what ways is it similar?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='20 June 2010 - 01:25 AM' timestamp='1277011495' post='2343454']
You do realize that the Ardus-Sponge log where you demanded Sponge release Chickenzilla got paraded around as an example of Polar abuses, right?

Speaking for myself, that VE would stoop so low as to accuse someone of [i]spying on a forum where former members post resignation letters[/i] was one of the major blows as far as I was concerned to the whole idea that VE represented any kind of moral movement.
[/quote]
There were a few other things associated with the accusation in addition to the concrete claim, but it all got lost in the argument. Save for Corn's acceptance of the initial information and presentation of it to the rest of gov't none of them were involved. I may have used the "moral movement" like an old rag in a garage/shop sink, but they're pretty zealously attached to it, especially now.

[Neo Uruk]

Heh. From what I've heard, VE actually had some valid cause to their canceling on Polaris (note that I wasn't around until just after noCB kicked off). It's glad to see it from your perspective, though, and not just some dry repetition of what "someone told me."

Edited June 20, 2010 by Neo Uruk

[Ardus]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='20 June 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1277011892' post='2343459']
Seeing as you are now an outsider (albeit someone we remain close to), how do you feel the current leadership of VE differs from the ways in which you led the Entente up until your resignation close to two years ago? In what ways is it similar?
[/quote]
I think you're more honest. You're more abrasive and rough around the edges, but an alliance can't be slick all the time if it wants to be successful. You're also a helluva lot more diplomatically talented than I've ever been judging by the treaties you've secured in the past couple of months.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1277011892' post='2343460']
There were a few other things associated with the accusation in addition to the concrete claim, but it all got lost in the argument. Save for Corn's acceptance of the initial information and presentation of it to the rest of gov't none of them were involved. I may have used the "moral movement" like an old rag in a garage/shop sink, but they're pretty zealously attached to it, especially now.
[/quote]
They still defend VE's actions that summer against the Polars, as well as your actions supporting the LoFN War. And then there's this.

[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/VE_sanctioning_NPO.png[/img]

Sorry. Considering you guys played a central role in starting the war against the Polars, all because you were obsessed with Sponge swearing after you wanted Chickenzilla booted for spying on non-member forums, and then a year later you're out there getting your revenge against NPO and defending OV despite their involvement in what was indisputably quite a bit more than what CZ was doing - no, I think I can feel pretty comfortable with the appellation of hypocrite being applied to you.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='20 June 2010 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1277014603' post='2343495']
Sorry. Considering you guys played a central role in starting the war against the Polars, all because you were obsessed with Sponge swearing after you wanted Chickenzilla booted for spying on non-member forums, and then a year later you're out there getting your revenge against NPO and defending OV despite their involvement in what was indisputably quite a bit more than what CZ was doing - no, I think I can feel pretty comfortable with the appellation of hypocrite being applied to you.
[/quote]

VE wasn't lead by Ardus during Karma. In the OP Ardus said he stepped down after VE's declaration on NpO. Whether you're calling Ardus or VE a hypocrite, you're wrong either way.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Geoffron X' date='20 June 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1277010906' post='2343442']
So, you're traitorous scum. Glad you can at least admit it.
[/quote]
That's an [i]amazing[/i] way to spin the Viridicide (that word has too many "i"s) and the natural change in attitude former Viridians would have towards the NPO as a result of it.

I'm actually impressed, really.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='20 June 2010 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1277014603' post='2343495']
They still defend VE's actions that summer against the Polars, as well as your actions supporting the LoFN War. And then there's this.

[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/VE_sanctioning_NPO.png[/img]

Sorry. Considering you guys played a central role in starting the war against the Polars, all because you were obsessed with Sponge swearing after you wanted Chickenzilla booted for spying on non-member forums, and then a year later you're out there getting your revenge against NPO and defending OV despite their involvement in what was indisputably quite a bit more than what CZ was doing - no, I think I can feel pretty comfortable with the appellation of hypocrite being applied to you.
[/quote]
First, LoFN? I'm not going to weep for Walford. I can't even remember the conflict--I had to look it up. Second, most of VE's actions with regard to Polar are perfectly defensible. The one thing that isn't is the CZ incident, a bit of handywork that I've acknowledged as [u]a blatantly opportunistic act on my part[/u] that didn't change a whole damn lot other than facilitate what was already well in motion.

So VE sanctioned NPO during Karma. Why exactly should I care given that war was weapons free on all fronts and in every manner?

Speaking of hypocrisy, Invicta rolled lil' old SOLID, an ally of Polaris, with five other alliances in the very war you condemn me for facilitating. This after canceling the treaty with Polaris after the... you guessed it... chat between Sponge and I.

[Imperator Hades]

[quote]I'm pretty much ripping this question from another conversation. The answer is yes. I meant every word about "Pax Pacifica" and every pro-Pacifican propaganda bit I generated up until the conclusion of the Green Civil War. After that, I swore to see the three parties directly involved burn: GGA, GOONS, and NPO. In what order was unnecessary. Siding with some to see the others fall from power was implicit in the enormity of the task.[/quote]

I remember the "green civil war", VE was just about to join GUARD or was in the process of applying and then WuT came knocking. Never got the chance to ask anyone from VE back then but what were your thoughts on Grämlins and the other signatories of the Green Solidarity Act who failed to honor the treaty?

I do enjoy a good history thread

Edited June 20, 2010 by Imperator Hades

[D34th]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 03:09 AM' timestamp='1277010553' post='2343435']
[b]So you admit to being an opportunist coward?[/b]

Yep. Remember when I wrote "all other things came second" earlier? Pride and honor are included in "other things". They were tools to be used, not ends to be reached. Make no mistake, however, both form the core ideals of Viridia and I've caught plenty of flak from Viridians for not embodying them entirely during my administration. Hell, I caught flak at the time.

[b]So... did you ever like the Orders?[/b]

I'm pretty much ripping this question from another conversation. The answer is yes. I meant every word about "Pax Pacifica" and every pro-Pacifican propaganda bit I generated up until the conclusion of the Green Civil War. After that, I swore to see the three parties directly involved burn: GGA, GOONS, and NPO. In what order was unnecessary. Siding with some to see the others fall from power was implicit in the enormity of the task.

[/quote]


So you admit that you, and consequently VE were under your leadership were just cowards, opportunists and traitors.

After saying that you still want NpO to be blamed for your treason before NoCB war?

Edited June 20, 2010 by D34th

[Tromp]

[quote name='Geoffron X' date='20 June 2010 - 07:15 AM' timestamp='1277010906' post='2343442']
So, you're traitorous scum. Glad you can at least admit it.
[/quote]
Haha, I had to laugh. It's even worse you actually believe it.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Tromp

[magicninja]

Eh most people dance around their past.

[Eric Cantona]

First and last warning: you can either play nice or stop posting alltogether.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1277016785' post='2343521']
First, LoFN? I'm not going to weep for Walford. I can't even remember the conflict--I had to look it up.
[/quote]
It is typical of the arrogance shown by the OP that he forgets supporting a war which disbanded all nine of the victim alliances.

Walford may be a lot of things, but a leader of nine alliances is not something he's ever been.

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1277016785' post='2343521']
Second, most of VE's actions with regard to Polar are perfectly defensible. The one thing that isn't is the CZ incident, a bit of handywork that I've acknowledged as [u]a blatantly opportunistic act on my part[/u] that didn't change a whole damn lot other than facilitate what was already well in motion.
[/quote]
This is quite incorrect. The Chickenzilla incident was used by the alliances who wanted to roll Polaris as a major pretext. Are you not aware how much that log got passed around?

There's a reason tech dealing with CZ was the CB used by GGA and Valhalla. You're the reason.

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1277016785' post='2343521']
So VE sanctioned NPO during Karma. Why exactly should I care given that war was weapons free on all fronts and in every manner?
[/quote]
I believe you guys complained when GGA had a go at making sure none of your nations were on the Green Team.

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1277016785' post='2343521']
Speaking of hypocrisy, Invicta rolled lil' old SOLID, an ally of Polaris, with five other alliances in the very war you condemn me for facilitating. This after canceling the treaty with Polaris after the... you guessed it... chat between Sponge and I.
[/quote]
Yes, we saw that log. We refused to cancel on its basis. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=27012"]This was our response.[/url]

If you must know, I didn't want to cancel at all. Ask around on Purple, you'll find ... some controversy over my actions that summer, lol. However we did cancel based on the Sponge log where he discussed Moo's medical condition, combined with issues deriving from the BDC incident.

We most certainly did not lobby people to cancel on the Polars because they supposedly supported spying, and then defend OV a year later for doing something which if CZ was spying, was clearly spying.

And, for what it's worth - we hit SOLID because an MADP was activated. We have a habit of honouring treaties, even when we really don't want to.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='20 June 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1277016399' post='2343514']
That's an [i]amazing[/i] way to spin the Viridicide (that word has too many "i"s) and the natural change in attitude former Viridians would have towards the NPO as a result of it.

I'm actually impressed, really.
[/quote]
You know they allied with the NPO [i]after[/i] that?

[Ardus]

[quote name='D34th' date='20 June 2010 - 05:34 AM' timestamp='1277026471' post='2343570']
So you admit that you, and consequently VE were under your leadership were just cowards, opportunists and traitors.

After saying that you still want NpO to be blamed for your treason before NoCB war?
[/quote]
Again, as I felt I made clear in the OP the entire affair is not some cut and dry, "party A was right, party B was wrong" affair. VE had every just reason to cancel the treaty after the FIST war. NpO had every just reason to be angry after the logs.

And... to whom exactly was I a traitor? That word's getting thrown around a lot. A leader's loyalty must lie, above all else, to his own alliance and its interests. That comes before any ally, no matter how powerful or close the relationship may be. To assume any position otherwise is treason to the alliance he or she leads.

[quote name='Imperator Hades' date='20 June 2010 - 5:09 AM']what were your thoughts on Grämlins and the other signatories of the Green Solidarity Act who failed to honor the treaty?[/quote]

I submitted no request for assistance and asked the contrary, that they not get involved. GSA was never supposed to be the lone response, but I couldn't manage any other security treaties in the short and hot of it. I'd have been more irritated if they'd honored it, as such would have forced a longer prosecution of the war.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='20 June 2010 - 9:38 AM']
This is quite incorrect. The Chickenzilla incident was used by the alliances who wanted to roll Polaris as a major pretext. Are you not aware how much that log got passed around?

There's a reason tech dealing with CZ was the CB used by GGA and Valhalla. You're the reason.[/quote]

That may be, but given the apparent eagerness of certain parties to utilize it as a pretext, do you not think they'd have found some other reason?

[quote]I believe you guys complained when GGA had a go at making sure none of your nations were on the Green Team.[/quote]

You're drawing a difficult comparison between individual nations at peacetime in perpetuity and members of an alliance during one of the most destructive wars in history temporarily. You should also criticize the anti-tech raiding people who've inadvertently taken the tech of their enemies in the general course of prosecuting a ground war.

[quote]Yes, we saw that log. We refused to cancel on its basis. This was our response.

If you must know, I didn't want to cancel at all. Ask around on Purple, you'll find ... some controversy over my actions that summer, lol. However we did cancel based on the Sponge log where he discussed Moo's medical condition, combined with issues deriving from the BDC incident.[/quote]

So you didn't cancel before you canceled. The hair you're splitting is between one instance of Sponge being a frustrated jerk and another instance of Sponge being a bigger frustrated jerk. And if you opposed the cancellation then good for you, but so did a very large contingent of Viridians, so assuming an individualistic excuse for yourself while refusing that for another alliance is, to use your word, hypocrisy.

[quote]We most certainly did not lobby people to cancel on the Polars because they supposedly supported spying, and then defend OV a year later for doing something which if CZ was spying, was clearly spying.[/quote]

I lobbied for a response, a public condemnation, to FIST. I asked that One Vision either defend or remain neutral in the event Sponge followed through on his threat of war after the logs.

As for Ordo Verde's shenanigans, they were strictly passive as opposed to Sponge's active refusal to [i]delete a thread[/i]. The Verdeans were accused of not only accepting a screenshot from a rogue informant, but of a laundry list of other unsubstantiated claims. Then they were hit while everybody was still talking about it. At no time did I make war on Polaris over Chickenzilla or threaten it. I explicitly informed the rest of One Vision that I would not take the matter to war in the separate channel, nor would I start any war against Polaris for anything other than direct attack. The details of each situation are pretty different and it is, again, a difficult comparison at best.

[quote]And, for what it's worth - we hit SOLID because an MADP was activated. We have a habit of honouring treaties, even when we really don't want to.[/quote]

Implying I do not. Viridia wasn't exactly excited to be taking on the Mushroom Kingdom--they're good guys, a fact I confirmed when I joined 'em. It's fine to have fought in that war. A lot of people did. It's two-faced to declare me a villain for disassociating from Polaris when Invicta eventually did the same in closer proximity to the war. I'm fine with being a villain for it, but make sure you aren't one, too.