A LOSS knowledge dump

[Moe Szyslak]

Ignoring the fact that the issues with Sparta were stemmed from issues they had with Timeline directly. The issues with Valhalla were caused by problems with Bella and Timeline directly.

Sure, Banned put his reputation on the line for people... and made himself look like an &$& in the process, but he never waivered on that.

And TBH talking about disbanding? That something that came from Timeline too?

I don't really see TBH as having disbanded so much as gotten a new start under the SLAP AA identity, but if you want to call it a disbandment, well I suppose that's your call.

As far as Banned being an over-reactor... it's true. I should never have been involved in FA politics. But at least I had the cahones to stand by people til they gave me a damn good reason not to. More than I can say for LoSS. Yes, I canceled the treaty after an emergency meeting with TBH government, and I led the charge to change TBH into SLAP, move to orange, and find a real protectorate for them, and a damn good one at that. :wub ODN: It's alright though, I mean I can chalk it all up to a learning experience. The only good thing that ever associated itself with LoSS was Moufassa as misguided as he might be for doing so. Oh and Randy was pretty cool too.

As far as the issues with Sparta go... were they practicing bullying tactics because they had larger NS and thought they could intimidate a smaller alliance all because they had a problem with one person? Yes. If TBH had backed down and agreed to play Sparta's game and Timeline stayed in TBH would Sparta have played that game eternally? Without a doubt. Are these NPO like tactics? Maybe. Could be far worse. I just know it sounds a lot like a lot of the accusations I heard flung around during Karma about NPO keeping people in overly long periods of rep payments over minor conflicts. Sparta didn't care about the money, it was about making a point, and it was a point that I wasn't about to be tugged along with. LoSS or no LoSS, and shedding that protectorate was certainly no LoSS to TBH.

[Co God Ben]

All I hear from you is blame Timeline. Classy.

I have a clear conscience about the TBH fiasco. I feel like a fool for ever agreeing to protect them/you, but Ratz and I did everything we could for TBH to solve every @#$%-up they/you performed. In the end, your co-founder got sick of you. And he left for another alliance, in the same fashion I defended when he joined TBH (a fashion you were fine with when it benefited you). If a leader of another alliance we protect left for us, I would accept them, too, especially if they were sick of the alliance they were in for whatever reason and thinking about quitting.

I haven't heard anybody other than you claim this of all things as an example of LoSS being ebil. I've only heard people say we were too good to you guys and shouldn't have put up with your crap. This makes me think that perhaps you're just butthurt because your alliance failed without Timeline.

Regardless, this will be my last reply to you in this topic, as it was intended to be a Q&A. If you want to fight more, feel free to find me tonight on irc. You know the chan.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='11 May 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1273598935' post='2294818']
[b]As far as Banned being an over-reactor... it's true. I should never have been involved in FA politics.[/b] But at least I had the cahones to stand by people til they gave me a damn good reason not to. More than I can say for LoSS. Yes, I canceled the treaty after an emergency meeting with TBH government, and I led the charge to change TBH into SLAP, move to orange, and find a real protectorate for them, and a damn good one at that. :wub ODN: It's alright though, I mean I can chalk it all up to a learning experience. The only good thing that ever associated itself with LoSS was Moufassa as misguided as he might be for doing so. Oh and Randy was pretty cool too.

As far as the issues with Sparta go... were they practicing bullying tactics because they had larger NS and thought they could intimidate a smaller alliance all because they had a problem with one person? Yes. If TBH had backed down and agreed to play Sparta's game and Timeline stayed in TBH would Sparta have played that game eternally? Without a doubt. Are these NPO like tactics? Maybe. Could be far worse. I just know it sounds a lot like a lot of the accusations I heard flung around during Karma about NPO keeping people in overly long periods of rep payments over minor conflicts. Sparta didn't care about the money, it was about making a point, and it was a point that I wasn't about to be tugged along with. LoSS or no LoSS, and shedding that protectorate was certainly no LoSS to TBH.
[/quote]

You certainly do a good job of concealing who you are. LoSS did what they could for TBH, but tbh, that alliance was a train wreck.

[Desert Ratz]

<3 Mathias <3



Also Ben said it perfectly. Many a night we had to go on and I had to stick my neck/reputation out there for that damn alliance. In the end TBH and their leaders werent grateful and instead turned on us by continuously trying to start a conflict between Sparta and ourselves.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Desert Ratz

[Moe Szyslak]

Ignoring the fact that the issues with Sparta were stemmed from issues they had with Timeline directly. The issues with Valhalla were caused by problems with Bella and Timeline directly.

Sure, Banned put his reputation on the line for people... and made himself look like an &$& in the process, but he never waivered on that.

And TBH talking about disbanding? That something that came from Timeline too?

I don't really see TBH as having disbanded so much as gotten a new start under the SLAP AA identity, but if you want to call it a disbandment, well I suppose that's your call.

As far as Banned being an over-reactor... it's true. I should never have been involved in FA politics. But at least I had the cahones to stand by people til they gave me a damn good reason not to. More than I can say for LoSS. Yes, I canceled the treaty after an emergency meeting with TBH government, and I led the charge to change TBH into SLAP, move to orange, and find a real protectorate for them, and a damn good one at that. :wub ODN: It's alright though, I mean I can chalk it all up to a learning experience. The only good thing that ever associated itself with LoSS was Moufassa as misguided as he might be for doing so. Oh and Randy was pretty cool too.

As far as the issues with Sparta go... were they practicing bullying tactics because they had larger NS and thought they could intimidate a smaller alliance all because they had a problem with one person? Yes. If TBH had backed down and agreed to play Sparta's game and Timeline stayed in TBH would Sparta have played that game eternally? Without a doubt. Are these NPO like tactics? Maybe. Could be far worse. I just know it sounds a lot like a lot of the accusations I heard flung around during Karma about NPO keeping people in overly long periods of rep payments over minor conflicts. Sparta didn't care about the money, it was about making a point, and it was a point that I wasn't about to be tugged along with. LoSS or no LoSS, and shedding that protectorate was certainly no LoSS to TBH.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='12 May 2010 - 03:55 AM' timestamp='1273650936' post='2295873']
Ignoring the fact that the issues with Sparta were stemmed from issues they had with Timeline directly. The issues with Valhalla were caused by problems with Bella and Timeline directly.

Sure, Banned put his reputation on the line for people... and made himself look like an &$& in the process, but he never waivered on that.

And TBH talking about disbanding? That something that came from Timeline too?

I don't really see TBH as having disbanded so much as gotten a new start under the SLAP AA identity, but if you want to call it a disbandment, well I suppose that's your call.

As far as Banned being an over-reactor... it's true. I should never have been involved in FA politics. But at least I had the cahones to stand by people til they gave me a damn good reason not to. More than I can say for LoSS. Yes, I canceled the treaty after an emergency meeting with TBH government, and I led the charge to change TBH into SLAP, move to orange, and find a real protectorate for them, and a damn good one at that. :wub ODN: It's alright though, I mean I can chalk it all up to a learning experience. The only good thing that ever associated itself with LoSS was Moufassa as misguided as he might be for doing so. Oh and Randy was pretty cool too.

As far as the issues with Sparta go... were they practicing bullying tactics because they had larger NS and thought they could intimidate a smaller alliance all because they had a problem with one person? Yes. If TBH had backed down and agreed to play Sparta's game and Timeline stayed in TBH would Sparta have played that game eternally? Without a doubt. Are these NPO like tactics? Maybe. Could be far worse. I just know it sounds a lot like a lot of the accusations I heard flung around during Karma about NPO keeping people in overly long periods of rep payments over minor conflicts. Sparta didn't care about the money, it was about making a point, and it was a point that I wasn't about to be tugged along with. LoSS or no LoSS, and shedding that protectorate was certainly no LoSS to TBH.
[/quote]


You know, I wasn't convinced the first time you said exactly that, but this time around it seems like a much better argument. The only flaw I can find in it, is that TBH were constantly trying to start a fight and intentionally driving a wedge between LoSS and Sparta. Shedding that protectorate, no matter how ungrateful it made you look after all LoSS did to keep you guys alive, was certainly no LoSS to LoSS TBH.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Mathias

[Moe Szyslak]

It was more about keeping LoSS informed than trying to start a fight between them and Sparta. The only people trying to start a fight were Sparta, just I wasn't about to take any of their crap when they would show up with some ridiculous demands because they were butthurt over Timeline leaving and taking their entire economy department with him. (Knowing what I know now about Timeline's departure tactics, his attempts to funnel an "anonymous" email to TOP through Gremlins, and his attempts to join TOP in an effort to bring them to conflict with Sparta, I quite frankly don't blame Sparta for being a bit pissed off.)

LoSS fell in love with Timeline and considered me the firecracker, because I drew a hard line and refused to negotiate with Sparta when they came with ridiculous demands at former members that their charter and their policies did not support as ways of treating ex-members, and I refused to play their little game of revenge. LoSS wanted to continually pay Sparta off every time they came with some petty accusation because they were afraid of getting rolled. Well to hell with em. Personally, I'll gladly go to ZI for what I believe. In the face of conflict, LoSS will just review the treaty. Only LoSS can lose more protectorates by betrayal than they lose by the protectorates growing up and blossoming. Are these really the treaty partners that anybody wants?

[Amossio]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='12 May 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1273682412' post='2296070']
The only people trying to start a fight were Sparta, just I wasn't about to take any of their crap when they would show up with some ridiculous demands
[/quote]

I remember you guys were preparing to DoW on a much smaller alliance simply because banned was peeved a someone going rogue on his nation. Timeline was the only one keeping a somewhat level head but several others shared banneds sentiments. Banned stated several times how he wished to attack GGR for the action of one of their member, nevertheless I must say that GGR was also to blame with some very bad diplomacy. Preparing for war without even considering the possibility and impact on LoSS is not what I judge to be a alliance that I would support and protect.

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='12 May 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1273682412' post='2296070']
Are these really the treaty partners that anybody wants?
[/quote]

Yes it is, LoSS has a very close bond with our treaty partners, look at nemesis they have 2 ex LoSSers in their gov, IAA had some not long ago and will do one day when I take over(none tell chimaera).

Edited May 12, 2010 by Amossio

[Brutilius]

[quote name='Amossio' date='12 May 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1273694554' post='2296182']
Yes it is, LoSS has a very close bond with our treaty partners, look at nemesis they have 2 ex LoSSers in their gov, IAA had some not long ago and will do one day when I take over(none tell chimaera).
[/quote]

We a damn proud of our ties to LoSS, they are certainly the kind of people we want to be tied to.

I was in the LoSS Senate when TBH were around, it started off great, then went downhill rather rapidly.

But please, LoSS did EVERYTHING we could to help TBH, its been stated many times we did more than we should.

[Believland]

So how do your allies know that you have their backs? With your great history as using allies just as strategic points, what have you done to not make the same mistakes?

[Mathias]

[quote name='Believland' date='12 May 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1273707472' post='2296326']
So how do your allies know that you have their backs? With your great history as using allies just as strategic points, what have you done to not make the same mistakes?
[/quote]

As an ally (and good friend) of LoSS, I think I can shed some light on why I trust them. The LoSS of today is much different from the LoSS that existed before. Starting after NoCB, I began to see changes in LoSS. Many members were upset about the decision to not defend GR and Polaris, and the alliance's ideology changed accordingly. In the months between NoCB and Karma, a distinct and noticeable change had taken place in both the mindset and make up of the LoSS government and membership. What happened during Karma was not a kneejerk reaction to the brake out of a global war, but more the final blow to the foundations of the old LoSS foreign policy. There was a dynamic shift in government and international alignment, and I'm pretty sure a new charter was part of the change as well.

I know LoSS's history fairly well from my own experiences with them. I've had my share of let downs, but if you look at the current makeup of the LoSS government and their ideology as a whole, you can tell that they're not the same LoSS we saw before Karma. I'm happy to say that I'm friends with people in and out of LoSS government, and they've been there for IAA ever since we signed our names on the treaty we share. I have no doubt that LoSS will be there for us, in good times and in bad.

[LordSlade]

[quote name='Believland' date='12 May 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1273707472' post='2296326']
So how do your allies know that you have their backs? With your great history as using allies just as strategic points, what have you done to not make the same mistakes?
[/quote]


I don't know if it was such a "great history of using allies" as more like a year of using allies. 1 bad year out of 4. Yeah its not an excuse, but everyone has to live with the choices they make. Basically if I could remove 2008 from our history I would. We made a lot of compromises to ourselves. But you ask about allies as strategic points, other than the choices we made in the NoCB war (I regret) and the treaties that we dropped leading up to Karma (which I don't regret) we have fought by our treaty partners every time we have been called upon. Our allies in the Great war era, our allies since the Karma war. We have fought for protectorates when 57th attacked Browncoats, we have fought for our military partners when Genesis attacked Nemesis, we have fought for our bloc when TOOL attacked Sparta. We have given our support in verbal conflicts where diplomacy wins out over war.

In the end we can say we have our allies back all we want, they are the ones that have to trust us. If they don't trust us enough to believe we have their backs then they probably won't stay tied with us. Our Nemesis treaty is now over a year old and NOIR and IAA come right behind it. We have been with LOUD, HOG, and KOTC forever. We are loyal to those allies we call brothers. They know it and we know it. In the end it comes down to trust and seeing as how they have stuck with us as we have them, I don't think trust is in question.

[Leet Guy]

I only realized you guys were still around at the onset of the previous conflict :/

[LordSlade]

Yeah it happens. We are sneaky devils like that.

[Moe Szyslak]

[quote name='LordSlade' date='13 May 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1273791537' post='2297290']
I don't know if it was such a "great history of using allies" as more like a year of using allies. 1 bad year out of 4.[/quote]

So 75% of the time LoSS is fine and 25% of the time you use your allies?

Now that foot has been inserted into mouth, I think maybe I'll leave this to the court of public opinion.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='13 May 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1273801468' post='2297423']
So 75% of the time LoSS is fine and 25% of the time you use your allies?

Now that foot has been inserted into mouth, I think maybe I'll leave this to the court of public opinion.
[/quote]

Not exactly. You see if you weren't going for a blatant attack on LoSS' character, you'd realize that when Slade said that LoSS had one bad one year out of four, he means that in one year LoSS made objectionable decisions, while in the other three they were fine. LoSS certainly didn't spend an entire year making bad decisions, because to be honest there's not that many opportunities in a year to make one every day. And if you realize that they all revolve around wars, that cuts your time window down to a few months. And since making decisions about how to act in a war generally happens at the beginning of said war, that's really only a couple days max per war. Slade referred to two wars, so if we give LoSS a generous (for your argument) average of three days of bad decisions per war, that rounds out to LoSS being 'not fine' 0.4% of the time.

Now what does all that have in common with your post? They're both complete !@#$%^&*. You really want to talk about how to treat your allies? You constantly caused trouble with LoSS' NOIR partner Sparta, even as LoSS government (and their allies) worked their @#$% off to fix it. Then, after LoSS pulled you out of the fire time after time, you went and renamed yourself SLAP and signed a protectorate with ODN. And I don't even want to know how badly you treated them. So get over yourself. TBH was a terrible alliance, because of bad decisions you and the rest of the government made. So until you have a legitimate reason to question LoSS' dedication to their treaty partners, go !@#$%* about some other alliance.

[Moe Szyslak]

So at 2 wars per year (your average) and for the sake of your argument 3 days per war, out of 4 years of existance, you're saying that LoSS has spent a total of 6 days total making decision that show they're willing to support their allies?

Seems to be a very poor track record to me. While you might want to come after me for calling your boys out, LoSS knew that Sparta was jacked in what they were doing. LoSS was informed of what was going on, I don't recall once asking them to intervene in the matter. (Timeline on the other hand may have done so, but as far as I'm concerned, LoSS intervened on their own accord.) My point is, that Sparta's beef was with Timeline, yet somehow LoSS has tried to skew it into a situation where I went off the handle. I'm not going to say that I was tactful with Sparta when things were happening. I'm not an FA guy, never should have been handling FA issues. But I'm not one to take crap from people either.

Let me ask you this. Let's take more current stats for our example.

If MHA came to your alliance and demanded reparations for something one of their ex-members did, yet MHA's charters and regulations did not call for the member to pay reparations for said action, would you pay it? And if you did, and they came again, how many times would you continue to pay it or allow them to inflate the number and charge interest on reparations for "wasting their time"? Personally, I don't think that you would take too kindly to that for too long either. I didn't. LoSS was informed because our treaty obligated us to inform them of the situation. LoSS asked to be involved in the discussions, and despite my attempts to keep them out of it, they got involved anyway. It went well as far as I'm concerned, until Timeline started talking about a week before he left that LoSS government members were telling him that he should join LoSS. Further, Timeline contacted everybody in the alliance to ask them to join LoSS with him. When Timeline left TBH, in a conversation with myself and AzAce he said that he was going to LoSS and that he had been offered the Minister of Economy position, prior to his departure from TBH. The next day he's sporting an MoE tag in LoSS's IRC and coming out a week later with his name signed on treaties with the MoE title.

So far as I'm concerned, LoSS can say they never contacted him, and that he never offered that position, but the fact that he said he had been offered the position before he left and then instantly obtained the position when joining LoSS... well, I can read between the lines. LoSS poached a protectorate, and got handed a steaming bag of crap. Within a month none of those players were in LoSS anymore.

As far as how ODN was treated by SLAP goes... well, I will let ODN talk about how they felt that protectorate went, and how they were treated by me. I found ODN to be an amazing protector for SLAP, a loyal treaty partner, and I am proud to say that I consider many of the members of ODN friends. I would gladly be treatied to ODN any day, and I hope that the ODN would say the same about me. I always felt that people holding ODN's past history against them was unrepresentative of their current alliance, because of ODN's outstanding level of support. I could only hope that one day I will be able to shed blood on the battlefield again in support of their great alliance.

I cannot say the same for LoSS. LoSS was not anywhere near as supportive as you guys are trying to make out. Much love to Randy who was an exception to the LoSS rule. I always felt like he could be counted on as a loyal ally, and hope that my comments on LoSS as an alliance do not reflect poorly on anybody's opinion of him.

[Amossio]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='15 May 2010 - 08:20 AM' timestamp='1273908018' post='2298463']
So at 2 wars per year (your average) and for the sake of your argument 3 days per war, out of 4 years of existance, you're saying that LoSS has spent a total of 6 days total making decision that show they're willing to support their allies?
[/quote]

You really don't know what you talking about, we supported our allies to the cost of nearly being disbanded, droping huge amounts of pixels, but we don't care we do it again. Our alliance have stuck side by side with our allies in this past year, If they thought for any reason we didn't have their support then they would have cancelled the treaty or never would have signed it in the first place.

TBH was an aggressive alliance which we only sought to help, after the falling out between their leaders some choose to go to us, we had an MoE spot and when timeline joined he simply challenged it as per our charter which he was given.

If you are still frustrated over the past actions of some members of TBH I suggest you talk to them instead of asking us why they did what they did, our answers is a reflection from what we know, if you're not happy like I said take it up with timeline and co.

[Moe Szyslak]

oh, Timeline is just as responsible for what happened as anybody is. Still doesn't excuse LoSS recruiting directly off of a protectorate's roster while the players were still members of the protectorate. I wasn't the only person that was there in the voice chat when Timeline said that LoSS had offered him that position and he was leaving TBH to take it.

And if Timeline had come into this open forum to tell alliances that he was still out there and they should establish closer relations with him, I'd be on here to warn the world of the troubles associated with him too.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Moe Szyslak

[Amossio]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' date='15 May 2010 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1273939692' post='2298797']
oh, Timeline is just as responsible for what happened as anybody is. Still doesn't excuse LoSS recruiting directly off of a protectorate's roster while the players were still members of the protectorate. I wasn't the only person that was there in the voice chat when Timeline said that LoSS had offered him that position and he was leaving TBH to take it.
[/quote]

They made their own choice in which alliance to go to, obviously LoSS had been close to timeline and most TBH members etc thus they choose to come to LoSS. Timeline had stated numerous times he was going to leave due to banned etc, if he said he was going to be given MoE then that was him making assumptions, we have a system and we keep to it, he came he challenged and he won it. Timeline made his own choices, LoSS did not force anyone to come to our alliance or recruited anyone from TBH.

People make their own choices to what they do, if they chose LoSS over TBH that was their own decision to make, I have huge respedct for him but Timeline hasn't got the best track record of keeping to one alliance anyway....

And timeline has kept within our side of the sphere, now he is applying to Nemesis, I would understand your concern nevertheless by your constant slating of LoSS based on arguments with no substance your advice for most alliances is not very useful.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Amossio

[Stealthkill]

How much would it cost me to get Chels back?

[Krunk the Great]

Oh snap, this is still going?

[Timeline]

Well i guess as my name has been used, oooo so many times in this topic, i should at least say something.

@ Moe Szyslak I have no idea who you are, more to the point I do not care, your facts are so far off the mark you shouldn't be saying anything, let me explain

Sparta had an issue with me yes, I left from a government role, and maybe did not leave in the right way, but that had nothing to do with why Sparta came after TBH, if you think it was, then by god your need to have your head checked, the reason Sparta came after TBH is becuase after i left, about 4-5 Spartan banks left and followed me to TBH, ALL Sparta was after was the bank aid given to the banks that had left, (they did want money i have gotten after the war, how ever they retracted that due to the amount i lost in the war) the issues came when we could not agree on the amount the banks had gotten and some of the rulings Sparta was trying to enforce, such as a 100% fine for those who left. so if you owed say 18m due to Darklink the new EoE at the time, that 18m became 36m, and rightly so TBH government refused to pay it....... This was the start of the issues with TBH and Sparta, then again if you was involved within these talks you would know that, the other issues came from banned been well forceful him self, telling the likes of Darklink that no one in TBH saw darklink as an official government member of Sparta, Sparta's reply was that they did not see me (Timeline) or Banned as official government members of TBH and would only talk to Magglez, as i am sure you can understand this caused a lot of problems, anyway the issue was sorted and over and done after i had talked to william a king of Sparta, the money they wanted was sorted, the 100% fine from darklink was removed, and most of the reps cut in half for fast and quick payment, i hope this explains a little about the issues with Sparta ( I will want to make this clear, IT was Darklink trying to force a small alliance to pay more then 2X what the amount was meant to be, NOT Sparta, once i talked to a king of Sparta they had removed all the silly fines and silly things Darklink tried to do, also Banned did not help the issue with his in your face way)

Now to the TBH and LoSS issue that you bought up, LoSS never offered me a role for me to leave TBH, i left due to banned and his ways, such as someone attacked one of our members, it was a simple tech raid, Banned wanted to have three nations attack this nation and force him to back off, I tried to explain that by doing this we will open our selfs up for a war, as it was over kill, a simple message to the leader of the alliance and it would be sorted, I sent a message and got a reply back stating that the nation who attacked a member of TBH will be told to stop and to sort out reps, I come on the next day and Banned had order three nations to attack the person attacking a TBH member and order full attacks.

there was many reasons why i left and im not going to list them all.

TBH and Valhalla issue, this had nothing to do with me personally, but was an issue with bella and cloudgt4, As leader of TBH at the time i acted on behalf of one of the TBH members, (Banned was also there so) cloudgt4 had told bella to send him naked pic or something along those lines (was a while ago) of he would have her and TBH ZI, So we went to Valhalla about the issue, how ever Valhalla did nothing as cloudgt4 kept saying the logs was fakes and god know what else.

So Moe Szyslak how about you learn the truth and the facts before you open that mouth ?

just to point out, LoSS supported TBH a damn sight more then you would veer know, it was due to LoSS that we did not get wiped out, Sparta had every right to attack us, no matter what happened at the time, TBH did recruit from Sparta in a way, We never told or asked anyone to join, but we knew what we was doing.........

I had not left Sparta at the time banned sent me a message saying, "i am starting my own alliance, i really need your help to do so" one of the reasons i left Sparta, When bella joined i knew that would cause Magglez to join, I also knew that banned had messaged a few banks in sparta who we became close too, not all joined but some did, it was not a case of come join my alliance, but sort of, I have started a alliance you should come hang out in our forums.

so once again Moe Szyslak your talking about things you know nothing about.

[Chimaera]

The funny thing is that this entire discussion comes down to an alliance attempting to wipe another alliance out because it viewed its members as possessions, not individuals. Regardless of why a person wants to leave your alliance, when they decide to do so, [i]they individually make that decision[/i]. Alliances do not [i]own[/i] their members, nor should they make a giant fit when some leave, regardless of the reason for leaving. The entire "poaching" phenomenon that seems to so rile up some people is really a non-issue when one actually takes the time to think about it. It is [i]never[/i] the case that members are dragged kicking and screaming from one alliance to another because someone asked them to join.

On a more topic-related issue, LoSS are some of the best allies anyone could ever ask for, and I'd have to say the reason any members of the (thank Admin now gone) Black Hand disagree with that notion is because their conduct as an alliance and as individuals didn't merit any sort of good treatment in the first place.

[Brutilius]

[quote name='Stealthkill' date='16 May 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1273967330' post='2299172']
How much would it cost me to get Chels back?
[/quote]

She's coming to Nemesis before you get her back