The New Grämlins

[Cormalek]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1271165234' post='2258641']
I'm happy you disagree with their aims.

The question is for all those currently paying lip service to this issue, will you stand in the way of this getting handled? Will you attempt to put restrictions on what DAWN and IRON can do to bring this situation to a close? Will you passively enable these "friends" to continue down this path? The answers to those questions are the only words that matter at this point.
[/quote]

Yes, it depends, no.

Dochartaigh, Delirious Propaganda Department created one of these after NSO particularly... high pitched DoW, but nobody used it here
[img]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6006/nsodow.png[/img]

[ooc:I still have a xcf of this in case someone wonders]

[Diomede]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1271170928' post='2258702']
Yes, it depends, no.

Dochartaigh, Delirious Propaganda Department created one of these after NSO particularly... high pitched DoW, but nobody used it here
[img]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6006/nsodow.png[/img]

[ooc:I still have a xcf of this in case someone wonders]
[/quote]
Naw, considering Härmlins seem to be the only participants actively defending this war of aggression against IRON I don't think it'll catch on.

Well, it might among those that dislike the current situation but are happy enough to prevent it being resolved.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 10:02 AM' timestamp='1271170928' post='2258702']
Yes, it depends, no.

Dochartaigh, Delirious Propaganda Department created one of these after NSO particularly... high pitched DoW, but nobody used it here
[img]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6006/nsodow.png[/img]

[ooc:I still have a xcf of this in case someone wonders]
[/quote]

while i admit that is quite humorous, it would have been far better to have used it back then.

if you could change Ivan's name and title to People of Planet Bob and include gRAMlins after the Leave IRON alone bit, i think that could catch on amazingly.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1271170928' post='2258702']
Yes, it depends, no.[/quote]
So you don't see standing in the way of us trying to end this as passively enabling the Gramlins behavior? Interesting.

Since you say it depends when discussing attempting to restrict our actions, do you see MHA as having actually left this war? Also, what specific actions would you attempt to restrict if you have a say in the matter?

[Cormalek]

Well what'cha gonna do, I noticed appropriate area for this [ooc:OWF propaganda thread] only recently, so only MHA and CSN had access to it. I can provide editable version, but wont do it myself, as I'm sort of under the blanket myself

Hehe, the IRONy of this situation is killing me. I'm enabling this, even though I disagree wholeheartedly. [Brannigan voice]: It's sort of... poetic.

To elaborate on my "no": OWF is not the only widely accessible/public CN forum, ask your FA people.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1271172242' post='2258726']
Well what'cha gonna do, I noticed appropriate area for this [ooc:OWF propaganda thread] only recently, so only MHA and CSN had access to it. I can provide editable version, but wont do it myself, as I'm sort of under the blanket myself

Hehe, the IRONy of this situation is killing me. I'm enabling this, even though I disagree wholeheartedly. [Brannigan voice]: It's sort of... poetic.

To elaborate on my "no": OWF is not the only widely accessible/public CN forum, ask your FA people.
[/quote]
I take that to mean you don't want your thoughts public on the OWF. Mind if I hunt you down on IRC and discuss it with you at some point?

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='13 April 2010 - 05:44 AM' timestamp='1271151864' post='2258564']All of you whining about Gramlins keeping IRON at war supported the NPO doing the same thing.[/quote]

I'm not whining, I've never supported eternal wars and yet I think Gramlins have genuinely blown it on this matter. Were my alliance tied to them I would be working very hard to undo said ties.

However....

If you are referring to IRON & Co., then yes. They certainly did support the NPO's eternal wars. As did Gramlins and everyone else who was once a member of or affiliated with the Continuum. (And no, I don't care who said what in private or public about which war. If something really bothers you, you vote with your feet. Otherwise, you're just another pixel-hugging windbag.)

But so what? Two wrongs make a right? Is that really your point?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='13 April 2010 - 05:13 AM' timestamp='1271160790' post='2258601']
My intent is not to scare them in to do anything, simply to let them know anything that happens from that time foward is on their heads. I do not want any future crying that they were not given a chance to solve things on their own. If they can not manage that then others will solve it for them. The simple concept they do not grasp is this. If IRON and DAWN were to accept a demand like unconditonal surrender then it would set a precedent for others to follow. Every alliance ends up loosing a war now and again. And no alliance wants to be given a demand like unconditional surrender. And that is why you see alliances on all sides upset. Allowing Gramlins to succeed in this is a grave threat to the security to every alliance on Planet Bob no matter where in the political spectrum they fall.
[/quote]

Because it is an unacceptable moral tragedy to make a defeated enemy disarm before discussing terms; no doubt comparable to a massive group like NPO keeping a comparatively tiny group like FAN in an eternal war!
It is also the same as demanding a defeated group like \m/ become a permanent tech farm for Polaris.

TBB, you can and should use the "declare war" button in your office whenever you feel like you have some crusade. But your self-righteous facade is laughable.

[Cormalek]

You people type too fast.

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1271171862' post='2258722']
So you don't see standing in the way of us trying to end this as passively enabling the Gramlins behavior? Interesting. [/quote]
I answered the question, not asked it. If you think those are the same thing, why did you phrase them as separate questions? Or was it a trick to see if I notice that there's (in your opinion) no difference?
No, I don't see it as equal. Despite our disagreement with current Gre actions, we still think of Gremlins (members) as of our friends, and will shield them if it's necessary.
As "passively enabling the Gramlins behavior" I understand twiddling our thumbs, and looking the other way. Much like with the case of when TOP reps were being discussed - the fact that you don't get many intel on it, does not mean we do nothing.

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1271171862' post='2258722']Since you say it depends when discussing attempting to restrict our actions, do you see MHA as having actually left this war?[/quote]
Yes.

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1271171862' post='2258722']Also, what specific actions would you attempt to restrict if you have a say in the matter?[/quote]
Show me specific actions that can be/were taken, and I'll elaborate. IE, if GGA, MCXA, NADC or Echelon wanted to join IRON and DAWN in their fight, that would be against our peace terms (re-entering).

The Citadel declared on Gre, and we did not retaliate, but this should be perceived by the prism of the impact they made on this conflict.

I really don't want to theorize. Each case has to be handled separately.

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1271172490' post='2258732']
I take that to mean you don't want your thoughts public on the OWF. Mind if I hunt you down on IRC and discuss it with you at some point?[/quote]
I'd love to, however I generally prefer PMs, as I don't write all that fast. But I guess IRC would help to get more-to-the-point answers from me
Although, in my post I was referring to embassies.

[ooc: I'm a GMT+1, so I'm online mostly between 10 AM to 6PM CN time.]

[mike717]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478']
DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and DAWN didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why
the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting
[/quote]


Those terms were offered as more or less a joke to get the peace talks started. You and I are both aware that Zenith and Old Guard had no illusions of "winning" a long term war with you guys.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 April 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1271173740' post='2258744']
Because it is an unacceptable moral tragedy to make a defeated enemy disarm before discussing terms; no doubt comparable to a massive group like NPO keeping a comparatively tiny group like FAN in an eternal war!
It is also the same as demanding a defeated group like \m/ become a permanent tech farm for Polaris.

TBB, you can and should use the "declare war" button in your office whenever you feel like you have some crusade. But your self-righteous facade is laughable.
[/quote]

It is unexceptable and a direct threat to every single alliance on Planet Bob. You can pretend that you do not understand that all you want, but you are not fooling anybody. You can blather on about \m/ and FAN all you wish but, the fact is your alliance setting a trend of unconditional surrender is more of threat to those alliances than anything NPO or Polar ever tried to do to them. This has nothing to do with being "self-righteous" and everything to do with the self preservation of every alliance on Planet Bob. You see its not that people love IRON or DAWN, its that what Gramlins is doing is a threat to them and every other alliance. And let me tell you that is not something that will be accepted by anyone with an IQ above 5. I do enjoy seeing you reduced to "use the "declare war" button". It exposes your complete desperation in this matter. I don't blame you really, defending a position you know is wrong is never easy.

Edited April 13, 2010 by The Big Bad

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1271172242' post='2258726']
the IRONy of this situation is killing me. I'm enabling this, even though I disagree wholeheartedly. [Brannigan voice]: It's sort of... poetic.
[/quote]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1271174097' post='2258747']
As "passively enabling the Gramlins behavior" I understand twiddling our thumbs, and looking the other way. IE, if GGA, MCXA, NADC or Echelon wanted to join IRON and DAWN in their fight, that would be against our peace terms (re-entering).The Citadel declared on Gre, and we did not retaliate, but this should be perceived by the prism of the impact they made on this conflict.I really don't want to theorize. Each case has to be handled separately.
[/quote]

Cormalek, You truly cannot claim that you are opposed to the situation that the gRAMlins are subjecting IRON and DAWN to. If you truly disagreed, and felt that what was happening here is wrong, then you would not simply just look the other way. Whether you or anyone else on Planet Bob likes it or not, looking the other way [b]IS[/b] allowing this situation to continue.

I understand that MHA is "friends" with the gRAMlins, although what I don't understand is [b]why[/b] you are still friends, but there is a really easy way that MHA could help see this problem resolved. Seeing as the gRAMlins CB has expired, you could easily excuse any one or more of our allies from the term that does not allow them to aid us until this situation is resolved.

Do not tell me that you you are completely opposed to what the gRAMlins are doing and then sit back and allow it to occur. That is hypocritical.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 April 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1271173740' post='2258744']
Because it is an unacceptable moral tragedy to make a defeated enemy disarm before discussing terms.
[/quote]

Gremlins never defeated IRON, your buddies who have since left the fight did the majority of the fighting while your contribution was minimal at best. Now you are on your own you have lost a massive part of your tactical advantage. While continuing this war is certainly not going to benefit IRON we are far from defeated and for you to believe that your alliance has the resources to defeat us on your own is nothing short of disillusion-al. I would imagine the likely result of your current path is a long drawn out battle where both parties are restricted from making any progress. Gremlins may have the NS advantage in the upper tiers but we have right on our-side and we will weather you as sure as the sun shall rise and fall.

Edited April 13, 2010 by MCRABT

[Cormalek]

Maybe it is, and I just rationalize.

But I tried to stress in my posts that we do [i]not[/i] look the other way. I even provided hints (twice now) as to where one can find some more info on this (although only partial).

[quote name='The Warrior' date='13 April 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1271177196' post='2258780']I understand that MHA is "friends" with the gRAMlins, although what I don't understand is [b]why[/b] you are still friends, but there is a really easy way that MHA could help see this problem resolved. Seeing as the gRAMlins CB has expired, you could easily excuse any one or more of our allies from the term that does not allow them to aid us until this situation is resolved.[/quote]
If an ally pulls moves one disagrees with, he changes his treaties. When a friend does that, one tries to influence him, and do whatever needed to remain friends (within some boundaries).

As to peace terms - CB expired, but the war did not end.

Apparently, there's a reason as to why Ramlins are doing this, but as you got the "magic box" option, we get the "Daddy knows what he's doing" line. From what we saw in this thread, we're on par with Gre members on this.

As to aid - I cannot see how that would help. You have stronger low and mid tier nations, the general problem here is that if your high tier nations left peace mode - they'd face much stronger enemy; and mid tier nations can't develop for the same reason. At least this is my understanding of this situation. How would aid help to break impasse on this?

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1271178426' post='2258802']
Apparently, there's a reason as to why Ramlins are doing this, but as you got the "magic box" option, we get the "Daddy knows what he's doing" line. From what we saw in this thread, we're on par with Gre members on this.

As to aid - I cannot see how that would help. You have stronger low and mid tier nations, the general problem here is that if your high tier nations left peace mode - they'd face much stronger enemy; and mid tier nations can't develop for the same reason. At least this is my understanding of this situation. How would aid help to break impasse on this?
[/quote]

So because the RAMlins claim to know what they are doing, you question their motives no further? This seems foolhardy. If you read back through some of the responses to this thread where the RAMlins actually made appearances, I see no way that you could not be just as suspicious as the rest of Bob. Their responses have been mediocre and vague at best. They suggest a course of action being taken that is right on par with what the rest of Bob thinks.

How can you not see the benefit of aid helping us? We just got out of a two month global war and are now essentially facing an aid embargo against our middle-lower tier nations. Our upper tier surely cannot aid them atm. If our allies can not either then their is an "embargo" applied to our nations.

Also, monetary aid is not the only aid I was suggesting. Its better than nothing, but it would be very easy for you to release any of our allies from the single term that does not allow them to take up arms again. It could even be a temporary term simply to allow them to take action since it appears up to this point that no one else will, even though every one hates what is happening.

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1271172490' post='2258732']
I take that to mean you don't want your thoughts public on the OWF. Mind if I hunt you down on IRC and discuss it with you at some point?
[/quote]

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='12 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271091780' post='2257439']
I'm sorry, IRC is not an acceptable form of communication. Should you have any inquiries about membership, the organization itself, or our policies, you'll need to come visit our forums.
[/quote]

[rapmanej]

So is Härmlins essentially dead in the water?

[Alterego]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1271178426' post='2258802']
Apparently, there's a reason as to why Ramlins are doing this, but as you got the "magic box" option, we get the "Daddy knows what he's doing" line. From what we saw in this thread, we're on par with Gre members on this.
[/quote]
Sounds like the actions of lemmings.

[Cormalek]

[quote name='Alterego' date='13 April 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1271179916' post='2258823']
Sounds like the actions of lemmings.
[/quote]

or maybe some confidence in actions of gov of our friends
Potaytoh, potatoh.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1271180442' post='2258829']
or maybe some confidence in actions of gov of our friends
Potaytoh, potatoh.
[/quote]

MHA is an alliance I have long held a soft spot for, to see you hold confidence in some of the poorest behaviour in recent times is somewhat disheartening. I'm curious as to what aspect of these actions fill you full of confidence about the future prosperity of your relationship with Gremlins?

[Diomede]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1271174097' post='2258747']
Show me specific actions that can be/were taken, and I'll elaborate. IE, if GGA, MCXA, NADC or Echelon wanted to join IRON and DAWN in their fight, that would be against our peace terms (re-entering)[/quote]
It wouldn't be re-entering. The conflict ended when CnG permitted IRON et al to surrender, with the agreement to pay reparations. What Gre is doing, is a war of aggression after the fact. Participating in the defence of CnG (without any obligation I might add) was the original CB. No CB, no reason for war.

Sure, you can spin it so that it's the third leg of the Cluster$%&@ war, but that doesn't improve Gre's position.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1271180442' post='2258829']
or maybe some confidence in actions of gov of our friends
[/quote]

I hope your confidence in Ramirus is well placed. I also understand MHA has been put in no easy position by the people you have confidence in.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Diomede' date='13 April 2010 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1271182558' post='2258861']
It wouldn't be re-entering. The conflict ended when CnG permitted IRON et al to surrender, with the agreement to pay reparations. What Gre is doing, is a war of aggression after the fact. Participating in the defence of CnG (without any obligation I might add) was the original CB. No CB, no reason for war.

Sure, you can spin it so that it's the third leg of the Cluster$%&@ war, but that doesn't improve Gre's position.
[/quote]

honestly spinning this as part of the TOP-CnG war is like TOP trying to state that their war on CnG was part of the original Polar-\m/ war. both times alliances aggressively attacked other alliances (in Gre's case just a single alliance) in a way that was only ever partially related to the war ongoing. In Gre's case, that reason is now gone and invalid. this war that Gre is waging is a separate war due to the fact that the sole basis for Gre's entrance into the TOP-CnG war is gone.

Gremlins have made this a separate war by their actions just as much as CnG stated TOP/co made their war a separate war based on the actions that TOP/co made. to state that TOP-CnG war was separate from the Polar-\m/ war but that Gremlins-IRON/DAWN war is not separate from the TOP-CnG war is just ridiculously hypocritical.

[mike717]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='13 April 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1271185501' post='2258903']
honestly spinning this as part of the TOP-CnG war is like TOP trying to state that their war on CnG was part of the original Polar-\m/ war. both times alliances aggressively attacked other alliances (in Gre's case just a single alliance) in a way that was only ever partially related to the war ongoing. In Gre's case, that reason is now gone and invalid. this war that Gre is waging is a separate war due to the fact that the sole basis for Gre's entrance into the TOP-CnG war is gone.

Gremlins have made this a separate war by their actions just as much as CnG stated TOP/co made their war a separate war based on the actions that TOP/co made. to state that TOP-CnG war was separate from the Polar-\m/ war but that Gremlins-IRON/DAWN war is not separate from the TOP-CnG war is just ridiculously hypocritical.
[/quote]
I would tend to agree. Legally speaking the only alliances that cannot enter this war to help are Old Guard and Zenith, Since both surrendered directly to Gre. I also understand that's not quite how certain other people see the situation, but as it stands it doesn't look like anyone is going to budge on their respective stances on the matter just yet....

Edited April 13, 2010 by mike717

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='13 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1271178426' post='2258802']
Apparently, there's a reason as to why Ramlins are doing this, but as you got the "magic box" option, [b]we get the "Daddy knows what he's doing" line[/b]. From what we saw in this thread, we're on par with Gre members on this.
[/quote]

And you don't find that degrading and insulting? Is it not crystal clear from this whole thing that "daddy" in fact has absolutely no idea what hes doing, is completely out of touch with reality, and actually thinks he has some sort of master plan that will actually work out?

[quote]Show me specific actions that can be/were taken, and I'll elaborate. IE, if GGA, MCXA, NADC or Echelon wanted to join IRON and DAWN in their fight, that would be against our peace terms (re-entering)[/quote]

Hypothetically, and assuming that the above listed alliances are precluded from entrance and will adhere to the terms you imposed on them, would MHA defend ramlins if they came under attack by a third party?