The New Grämlins

[Azrael Alexander]

[quote name='Alterego' date='11 April 2010 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1270968978' post='2256229']
Ramwedge & his cronies seems happy to allow Shamlins smaller nations be crushed while all the people at the top sit in peace mode for tactical reasons.
[/quote]

Last I was aware most of the gremlins top nations are in war mode

[quote name='kerschbs' date='11 April 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1271005570' post='2256405']
Really? No kidding? Your arrogance astounds me. I cannot wait until Gramlins gets held to their own "standards." You all have destroyed the reputation of one of the best alliances on Bob. It disgusts me at what Gramlins has let themselves become.
[/quote]
[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 April 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1271020697' post='2256580']
What Gremlins want is for IRON to say "we surrender and accept whatever terms you offer". IRON would then be given a 3-4 day ceasefire during which Gremlins want them to decommission all tanks, CMs, navy, aircraft and nukes, plus soldiers down to a certain level, in addition to leaving peace mode. It is at this point that they would reveal the terms, the nature of which I don't even think most Gremlins know.

Now, obviously if IRON were to comply with this demand and then be presented with terms that were unacceptable, then their position will have been significantly worsened. As it is though, their only other options are fighting back (which, given some of IRON gov's posts, they have already given up on) or waiting for someone to save them. Also, depending on the nature of the terms given they could always say "ok, we accept" and then have everyone run back to peace mode 5 days later, in which case they'll be back where they started except with lower bills.
[/quote]

Said terms would have the article of our codex regarding reparations which i'm sure has been analysed by all here, applied to it. But of coarse you could just believe we're gonna do the things gremlins historically do to alliances we have have had a hand in defeated which of coarse includes:

[list]
[*]Disbandment
[*]Installing a viceroy (last i heard it was going to be tobbogon for IRON and me for DAWN)
[*]locusts gotta have locusts
[*]destruction of wonders
[*]perma-tech farm
[*]blood oath to never raise arms against a gremlin ever again
[/list]

Edited April 11, 2010 by Shamshir

[shilo]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 April 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1271020697' post='2256580']
What Gremlins want is for IRON to say "we surrender and accept whatever terms you offer". IRON would then be given a 3-4 day ceasefire during which Gremlins want them to decommission all tanks, CMs, navy, aircraft and nukes, plus soldiers down to a certain level, in addition to leaving peace mode. It is at this point that they would reveal the terms, the nature of which I don't even think most Gremlins know.

Now, obviously if IRON were to comply with this demand and then be presented with terms that were unacceptable, then their position will have been significantly worsened. As it is though, their only other options are fighting back (which, given some of IRON gov's posts, they have already given up on) or waiting for someone to save them. Also, depending on the nature of the terms given they could always say "ok, we accept" and then have everyone run back to peace mode 5 days later, in which case they'll be back where they started except with lower bills.
[/quote]
To the first part: never gonna happen

Second part: We surely are not giving up.
[quote name='Shamshir' date='11 April 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1271021639' post='2256590']
Said terms would have the article of our codex regarding reparations which i'm sure has been analysed by all here, applied to it. But of coarse you could just believe we're gonna do the things gremlins historically do to alliances we have have had a hand in defeated which of coarse includes:

[list]
[*]Disbandment
[*]Installing a viceroy (last i heard it was going to be tobbogon for IRON and me for DAWN)
[*]locusts gotta have locusts
[*]destruction of wonders
[*]perma-tech farm
[*]blood oath to never raise arms against a gremlin ever again
[/list]
[/quote]
Sorry, as Omas and others were too kind to point out, the codex is a purely internal matter, so I cannot comment on this. However, any reference to what your alliance (or at least another alliance which name you are still using) did in the past has no relevance anymore, your terms top even what NPO did in the past.
So nothing coming from you is anything that can be relied on. Take your terms off the table, and then there is a basis for talks.

[Azrael Alexander]

[quote name='shilo' date='11 April 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1271024310' post='2256610']
To the first part: never gonna happen

Second part: We surely are not giving up.

Sorry, as Omas and others were too kind to point out, the codex is a purely internal matter, so I cannot comment on this. However, any reference to what your alliance (or at least another alliance which name you are still using) did in the past has no relevance anymore, your terms top even what NPO did in the past.
So nothing coming from you is anything that can be relied on. Take your terms off the table, and then there is a basis for talks.
[/quote]

Tis an internal matter, and I just told you how we would use it. In my eyes as per the codex I would expect if you choose to unconditionally surrender IRON would get white peace and DAWN would have to pay tech reps. But all I have is my word and I can tell you if they are not terms I would take if the sides were swapped I'll happily join join methrage in his cause.

If you choose to believe the worst assumptions of those on the OWF then that's your call. I would have hoped people would know the actual member of my alliance a little better and not let their view be clouded by those who shout the loudest on this stage who will come to the certain conclusion that if you do surrender only the above terms i stated are what we will give.

[Blue Lightning]

Shamshir:

If you're just going to give white peace, then give white peace. If you're going to demand reps, then demand reps. If you want to end this war, then do so. It's completely within your powers to end the war today or tomorrow if you wanted to. The trouble is, you are demanding that you opponents hand over the keys to their alliance to you, and trust that you wont run it into the ground even though you have the power to do so (though your government is just saying "Hand over your alliance" with no implication of what may follow).

This is a term that Gremlins would never accept it's self, and so by issuing this demand, you are already violating your own codex. How are IRON or DAWN meant to take your codex seriously when you've already violated it in this (and several other) way(s)?

[Diomede]

Pretty much what BL said. Damn, it feels bad agreeing with him.

Not to mention that IRON is no longer a threat to Gre, as they are currently waiting to pay reparations for a war that ended a few days ago.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Shamshir' date='11 April 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1271026368' post='2256654']
Tis an internal matter, and I just told you how we would use it. In my eyes as per the codex I would expect if you choose to unconditionally surrender IRON would get white peace and DAWN would have to pay tech reps. But all I have is my word and I can tell you if they are not terms I would take if the sides were swapped I'll happily join join methrage in his cause.

If you choose to believe the worst assumptions of those on the OWF then that's your call. I would have hoped people would know the actual member of my alliance a little better and not let their view be clouded by those who shout the loudest on this stage who will come to the certain conclusion that if you do surrender only the above terms i stated are what we will give.
[/quote]

They don't choose to believe the worst they and everyone else has already seen it. What is the point of unconditional surrender? It is simply to shame your enemy. You then offer whatever terms you wish and if they do not like them you can bash them for breaking the surrender terms. As I have said the only thing more foolish then taking such terms is offering them. The "mystery" terms to come later, no matter how heavy or light, pale in comparison to trying to humiliate your enemy with unconditional surrender. If you have terms offer them, this is the very basics of diplomacy on Planet Bob that Gramlins leadership seem unable to grasp. You ask people to trust you will follow the Codex when you already ignore it? [quote]Peace terms shall not be used to humilate the opponent [/quote]or [quote]No terms shall be offered which The Grämlins would not consider acceptable if the sides were switched. [/quote] or are you telling me Gramlins would ever accept unconditional surrender to any alliance? You damn well know you would not. You have already tossed the codex into the very same dustbin your entire seems to be headed to.

Edited April 12, 2010 by The Big Bad

[Bob Janova]

[quote]But of coarse you could just believe we're gonna do the things gremlins historically do to alliances we have have had a hand in defeated[/quote]
Sorry Shamshir but we all know that the historical Grämlins would never demand unconditional surrender in the first place (and in fact has won two major wars, BLEU war and Karma war, and in neither case demanded such a thing). So you can't use the record of Grämlins as an argument when your current leadership is clearly acting well outside precedent (of anyone, never mind that alliance).

What you're asking is totally ridiculous and the world is quite right in rejecting it.

[Syzygy]

[quote name='Blue Lightning' date='12 April 2010 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1271029367' post='2256694']
Shamshir:

If you're just going to give white peace, then give white peace. If you're going to demand reps, then demand reps. If you want to end this war, then do so. It's completely within your powers to end the war today or tomorrow if you wanted to. The trouble is, you are demanding that you opponents hand over the keys to their alliance to you, and trust that you wont run it into the ground even though you have the power to do so (though your government is just saying "Hand over your alliance" with no implication of what may follow).

This is a term that Gremlins would never accept it's self, and so by issuing this demand, you are already violating your own codex. How are IRON or DAWN meant to take your codex seriously when you've already violated it in this (and several other) way(s)?
[/quote]
They violate their laws as they see fit, as already said multiple times now by some of their own members, they just "do what they want as long as it seems to be fun". The alliance still using the name "The Grämlins" has thrown away the behavior they are obligated to in the preamble of their own charter, you cannot take anything they say serious any more. A lulzy and hollow shell of an alliance is everything they are now, playing around with the bit of proxy-might coming from the few friends/allies they still have. Just clowns not worth being recognized any more since even the level of entertainment is pretty low.

[NLights]

The best part is that Planet Bob is unified about this; the worst part is that the new gramlins still don't get it.

Really, the only thing left to do with the New Gramlins is laugh. But the fact this is happening to IRON and DAWN really makes me hate them again.
Jeez, I was so close to forgetting you guys existed >:[ ughhhh

[Crymson]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 April 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1271020697' post='2256580']
What Gremlins want is for IRON to say "we surrender and accept whatever terms you offer". IRON would then be given a 3-4 day ceasefire during which Gremlins want them to decommission all tanks, CMs, navy, aircraft and nukes, plus soldiers down to a certain level, in addition to leaving peace mode. It is at this point that they would reveal the terms, the nature of which I don't even think most Gremlins know.

Now, obviously if IRON were to comply with this demand and then be presented with terms that were unacceptable, then their position will have been significantly worsened. As it is though, their only other options are fighting back (which, given some of IRON gov's posts, they have already given up on) or waiting for someone to save them. Also, depending on the nature of the terms given they could always say "ok, we accept" and then have everyone run back to peace mode 5 days later, in which case they'll be back where they started except with lower bills.
[/quote]

Let me get this straight: Because IRON will benefit from the war ending, you feel that the Gramlins` demands really aren't that bad? How does that work?

Edited April 12, 2010 by Crymson

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Crymson' date='11 April 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1271032794' post='2256762']
Let me get this straight: Because IRON will benefit from the war ending, you feel that the Gramlins` demands really aren't that bad? How does that work?
[/quote]

I didn't say anything of the sort. The demand of unconditional surrender is ridiculous; no alliance has ever complied with such terms and I do not believe anyone should ever be made to, even IRON.

However the history of Planet Bob is littered with such cases; when presented with unacceptable terms it is often a better option to accept them rather than to continue fighting in the hope of some distant unforeseeable victory. This is a special case because it is difficult to judge whether surrendering is worse than fighting or not. I can sympathize with IRON's stance but that doesn't change the practicality of the situation.

Now, personally I think IRON is perhaps not as hopelessly outnumbered as they think they are. It is not totally impossible for IRON to win the long run.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Shamshir' date='11 April 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1271026368' post='2256654']
If you choose to believe the worst assumptions of those on the OWF then that's your call. I would have hoped people would know the actual member of my alliance a little better and not let their view be clouded by those who shout the loudest on this stage who will come to the certain conclusion that if you do surrender only the above terms i stated are what we will give.
[/quote]

No matter what you believe the final terms Ramirus would put down after an unconditional surrender are, Ramirus and your alliance as a whole are still behaving in a bizarre and irrational fashion, and the fact that IRON is not inclined to agree to an unconditional surrender is not something anyone can hold against them.

There are two possibilities for the terms that your alliance will give to IRON after an unconditional surrender; either terms they would not accept if offered up front, or terms they would accept if offered up front. In the case of the former, Ramirus is trying to disguise harsh terms as something other than it is and IRON is justified in not surrendering. In the case of the latter, there is no rational explanation for why Ramirus wants an unconditional surrender before laying out the terms, assuming he actually wants to end the war. That assumption may be an erroneous one, in which case the explanation is that Ramirus wants to keep fighting IRON for a little while longer before peace and is using his peace offer as political cover so he cannot be criticized for keeping IRON in perpetual war. To summarize, either Ramirus wants IRON to submit to overly harsh terms, Ramirus is crazy, or Ramirus doesn't want IRON to get peace for a while longer. Take your pick, no matter the explanation IRON cannot be criticized for refusing to give in yet.

Unless you have another explanation, which I would love to hear.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Moridin

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 April 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1271020697' post='2256580']
What Gremlins want is for IRON to say "we surrender and accept whatever terms you offer". IRON would then be given a 3-4 day ceasefire during which Gremlins want them to decommission all tanks, CMs, navy, aircraft and nukes, plus soldiers down to a certain level, in addition to leaving peace mode. It is at this point that they would reveal the terms, the nature of which I don't even think most Gremlins know.[/quote]

Once again I question why Ramirus is apparently so willing to speak to a member of CSN on the matter but not IRON or DAWN. Secondly, No.

[quote name='Shamshir' date='11 April 2010 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1271026368' post='2256654']
Tis an internal matter, and I just told you how we would use it. In my eyes as per the codex [b]I would expect if you choose to unconditionally surrender IRON would get white peace and DAWN would have to pay tech reps.[/b] But all I have is my word and I can tell you if they are not terms I would take if the sides were swapped I'll happily join join methrage in his cause.

[b]If you choose to believe the worst assumptions of those on the OWF then that's your call.[/b] I would have hoped people would know the actual member of my alliance a little better and not let their view be clouded by those who shout the loudest on this stage who will come to the certain conclusion that if you do surrender only the above terms i stated are what we will give.[/quote]

How do you figure that IRON would be granted white peace and why would DAWN be forced to pay reps?

Also, What other option have you given us?

[quote name='Blue Lightning' date='12 April 2010 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1271029367' post='2256694']
Shamshir:

[b]If you're just going to give white peace, then give white peace.[/b] If you're going to demand reps, then demand reps. If you want to end this war, then do so. It's completely within your powers to end the war today or tomorrow if you wanted to. The trouble is, you are demanding that you opponents hand over the keys to their alliance to you, and trust that you wont run it into the ground even though you have the power to do so (though your government is just saying "Hand over your alliance" with no implication of what may follow).

[b]This is a term that Gremlins would never accept it's self, and so by issuing this demand, you are already violating your own codex. How are IRON or DAWN meant to take your codex seriously when you've already violated it in this (and several other) way(s)?[/b]
[/quote]

This and this.

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='12 April 2010 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1271030800' post='2256719']
They don't choose to believe the worst they and everyone else has already seen it. [b]What is the point of unconditional surrender? It is simply to shame your enemy.[/b] You then offer whatever terms you wish and if they do not like them you can bash them for breaking the surrender terms. As I have said the only thing more foolish then taking such terms is offering them. The "mystery" terms to come later, no matter how heavy or light, pale in comparison to trying to humiliate your enemy with unconditional surrender. If you have terms offer them, this is the very basics of diplomacy on Planet Bob that Gramlins leadership seem unable to grasp. You ask people to trust you will follow the Codex when you already ignore it? or or are you telling me Gramlins would ever accept unconditional surrender to any alliance? You damn well know you would not. You have already tossed the codex into the very same dustbin your entire seems to be headed to.
[/quote]

We will never allow ourselves to be subjected to such a term.

Edited April 12, 2010 by The Warrior

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='The Warrior' date='11 April 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1271036768' post='2256848']
Once again I question why Ramirus is apparently so willing to speak to a member of CSN on the matter but not IRON or DAWN. Secondly, No.
[/quote]

Ramirus is hardly spilling his guts out to me. Every scrap of information has to be wrestled out.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='The Warrior' date='11 April 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1271036768' post='2256848']
Once again I question why Ramirus is apparently so willing to speak to a member of CSN on the matter but not IRON or DAWN. Secondly, No.
[/quote]

I, for one, enjoy it. I even tried to see what drugs he was on, but he feigned by changing the subject.

At any rate... Gramlins, good luck in the future. I can tell you now: you will [b]never[/b] recover from this stunt.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Shamshir' date='11 April 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1271026368' post='2256654']
Tis an internal matter, and I just told you how we would use it. In my eyes as per the codex I would expect if you choose to unconditionally surrender IRON would get white peace and DAWN would have to pay tech reps. But all I have is my word and I can tell you if they are not terms I would take if the sides were swapped I'll happily join join methrage in his cause.[/quote]
As per the codex, I assume the Ramlins would accept unconditional surrender?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='11 April 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1271038504' post='2256878']
I, for one, enjoy it. I even tried to see what drugs he was on, but he feigned by changing the subject.

At any rate... Gramlins, good luck in the future. I can tell you now: you will [b]never[/b] recover from this stunt.
[/quote]

i am not sure what exactly Gremlins have to recover from? publicly they have their allies/friends backing them up and supporting what they are doing. their allies/friends may not be exactly condoning what they are doing, but have done nothing whatsoever about the situation other than speak words. This amounts to exactly next to nothing in terms of making Gremlins actually listen.

None of IRON's/DAWN's allies under terms can help without breaking the surrender terms and getting hit. None of IRON's/DAWN's allies out of terms are helping out, whether they are incapable due to rebuilding or just twiddling their thumbs.

This means that while IRON and DAWN continue to suffer under what Gremlins are doing, they will still have to pay reps after this is done with, in a much more diminished capacity thanks to this war. Frankly, MHA should be ashamed to be allied to Gremlins at this point. MK and their other friends should also be ashamed and all Gremlins friends and allies should cut ties at the very least. This would be doing something more than giving lip service towards the travesty that is going on.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='11 April 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1271040398' post='2256931']
i am not sure what exactly Gremlins have to recover from? publicly they have their allies/friends backing them up and supporting what they are doing. their allies/friends may not be exactly condoning what they are doing, but have done nothing whatsoever about the situation other than speak words. This amounts to exactly next to nothing in terms of making Gremlins actually listen.

None of IRON's/DAWN's allies under terms can help without breaking the surrender terms and getting hit.
[/quote]

Easy way to prove they actually back IRON/DAWN up. Specifically release alliances from that term, and that term only.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='11 April 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1271041490' post='2256955']
Easy way to prove they actually back IRON/DAWN up. Specifically release alliances from that term, and that term only.
[/quote]

we all know that won't happen. seems that despite all their talk of Unconditional Surrender becoming a precedent, they only care about the no-reentry clause. this despite the fact that due to special circumstances, this is the only situation that would ever have an affect on no-reentry.

the only other time a no-reentry clause was affected was with NSO and that was subsequently squashed by Fark.

in fact, CnG/Co don't even have to let you guys out of the no-reentry clause. all they have to do is amend it to allow you guys to only be able to hit Gremlins and no one else. Thus, their fears about being hit are alleviated and IRON's/DAWN's allies are able to hit Gremlins. it is really that simple to accomplish and will thus have no precedent on the no-reentry clause whatsoever.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='11 April 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1271042049' post='2256973']
we all know that won't happen. seems that despite all their talk of Unconditional Surrender becoming a precedent, they only care about the no-reentry clause. this despite the fact that due to special circumstances, this is the only situation that would ever have an affect on no-reentry.

the only other time a no-reentry clause was affected was with NSO and that was subsequently squashed by Fark.

in fact, CnG/Co don't even have to let you guys out of the no-reentry clause. all they have to do is amend it to allow you guys to only be able to hit Gremlins and no one else. Thus, their fears about being hit are alleviated and IRON's/DAWN's allies are able to hit Gremlins. it is really that simple to accomplish and will thus have no precedent on the no-reentry clause whatsoever.
[/quote]
Oh, I know it won't happen. I'm just saying that there [i]is[/i] a way to do it.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Gamemaster1

[rapmanej]

What does MHA think of this subject?

That would be important as that is the only military treaty GRE has left.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='11 April 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1271040251' post='2256927']
As per the codex, I assume the Ramlins would accept unconditional surrender?
[/quote]

If I found myself defeated I shouldn't think I would refuse.

[mad mike]

[quote name='The Warrior' date='11 April 2010 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1271036768' post='2256848']
Once again I question why Ramirus is apparently so willing to speak to a member of CSN on the matter but not IRON or DAWN. Secondly, No. [/quote]


maybe if IRON or DAWN actually came to the gremlins forums and asked the questions that Lord Brendan has they would get the answers they desire. It amazes me that the only person whom even comes to our forums and ask us questions is not even involved. The embassies for IRON have not even been used in over three months on the gremlins forums, the last time anyone posted in the IRON embassy was December 26th 2009. And DAWN does not even have an embassy that i can find on the Gremlins forums. This really shows and showed a lot of initiative to incite peace in this conflict.

AS for "unconditional surrender" nobody ever said "hand me your keys," it is basically just another term for what is already been done and is being done currently. Just being called a different name and all hell breaks loose from assumptions and innuendos.

As far as gremlins graph. O-no we are loosing pixels from small to smaller more inactive nations fighting 3 vs 1 against nations that were previously over 50K NS. So of course we will be loosing pixels, but even if they all fight for the alliance to ZI, they will and would be rebuilt bigger and better than they were before and faster. The Gramlins National Bank is ready and willing to rebuild every nation that lost even one pixel for the alliance. Our coffers are limitless, unless that is Iron decides to remove people from peace mode that have been there for over 60 days and have a war chest the size of my daily income, just to try and attack our banks, but that would be suicide for them so i do not see that happening, even though they are finally doing some spying on our larger nations. I hope that means something. Even though we have all your nations intell from start of war to present.


I hope my wall of text gets communications open and people realize Gremlins are not bad people, until you get them wet, feed them after midnight, or subdue them to bright lights. How about we all go and watch a movie together?

O and how do i join the Ramerious hate group that seems to be forming, and what is your irc?

Edited April 12, 2010 by Mad Mike

[Sephiroth]

My terms for giving peace to Gremlins are simple, make me King, then the rest of their problems get fixed from there.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Methrage' date='11 April 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1271048269' post='2257106']
My terms for giving peace to Gremlins are simple, make me King, then the rest of their problems get fixed from there.
[/quote]
A cunning plan....