The Future of Neo-Hegemony ?

[Lord Fingolfin]

Anyone who isn't a fool can see that NPO is doing what any reasonably intelligent alliance would do. They got beat down and brutally gangbanged by half the Cyberverse last year and their most notable allies are suffering from a repeat performance of that right now. They're under the protection of the G15, can't have nukes or military buildup. Saves them a ton on bills (Navy+Nukes at medium high NS can range in the millions for upkeep)while they don't have to worry about military threats. They get to rebuild and send out the reps at a pace convenient to them and exit terms at the moment where both their soft power (political) and hard power (stats) put them in the best position they can hope for. Rushing through terms only to get dragged into another losing conflict where they get irreparably crushed is folly of the highest degree.

[zzzptm]

So should the alliances with NPO under terms find them in violation of said terms 24-48 hours before they expire?

[Lord Fingolfin]

:V I see what you did there! I meant to imply that they would meet their reps within the 1 year (I believe its one year) time frame, however, it would be pointless to speed it up. Finishing their reps on day 15 of their eleventh month wouldn't hurt them

[Hydro]

nvm

Edited March 21, 2010 by Hydro

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='lebubu' date='22 March 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1269185230' post='2232154']
NPO is statistically incapable of becoming a threat anytime soon.
[/quote]
No, but the NPO could hold the balance of power in the world if and when this war ends.

They can shift enough aid to make them a very desirable addition to some future coalition.

[lebubu]

The amount of money the NPO can move is of little consequence in an age where wars are fought and won in the upper tiers, and where individual nations hold hundreds of slots worth of money on hand. This is a new age, infra-based alliances like the NPO can be neutralized in a few rounds of nuclear war - they'd be smart not to involve themselves in anything that could get them killed again.

edit: clarity

Edited March 22, 2010 by lebubu

[Cortath]

[quote name='sethb' date='21 March 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1269188358' post='2232184']
Since they are either A. Incompetent at moving reps, or B. Have been dragging their feet on purpose, My best guess would be a couple more months. I haven't been involved with the reps deal in a very long time though so don't quote me on that.
[/quote]

I thought you would have been smart enough not to post about these things, at this point, sethb.

What happened to your alliance by the way? What were they called? It's been hard to send reparations to them recently.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='lebubu' date='22 March 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1269217160' post='2232566']
The amount of money the NPO can move is of little consequence in an age where wars are fought and won in the upper tiers, and where individual nations hold hundreds of slots worth of money on hand. This is a new age, infra-based alliances like the NPO can be neutralized in a few rounds of nuclear war - they'd be smart not to involve themselves in anything that could get them killed again.

edit: clarity
[/quote]

War is an expensive thing and expensive things deplete warchests quite quickly.

Just consider the losses the average member of your alliance has taken during this war and consider the cost to replace them and multiply that across your alliance and also consider the average amount of money that is spent per day to fight a war and multiply this by the length of the war and the size of your alliance and you will see the kind of money I am talking about. War is not cheap and neither is reconstruction and both these factors will seriously deplete warchests to the point where they are no longer a major factor if this war continues.

And as attrition continues and warchests become depleted the upper tier nations will crumble and they will fall. There will be considerably fewer upper tier nations amongst the belligerents of this war at the end (they will be rare among the victors and virtually non existent among the losers) and their role will be diminished as the majority of the action will happen in the mid and lower tiers in the next war, making this war the last war that they will play a major role in for quite some time. They will be like the gods of myth and legend, huge and powerful, but with no rivals to fight.

So the role of aid to the lower to mid tiers could play a crucial role in the next war. And a titan of a nation can only send the same maximum amount of aid as any other bank nation so their effectiveness as banks will be the same as any other bank. (I would consider a bank to be any nation who's income exceeds the maximum amount of aid they can send out per aid cycle)

So in the balance of all probability the NPO will find itself in an enviable political position due to its abundance of 'bank' nations and it will have potential allies beating a path to their door for assistance in rebuilding after the war. and this aid can be used to cement new friendships and alliances quite easily.

EDIT: Formatting SNAFU
EDIT2: OOC: Curse you for making have complex ideas when I have the flu. lol

Edited March 22, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[President Sitruk]

Johns, did you basically post the same paragraph twice on purpose?

[supercoolyellow]

Prime Minister John, I think your analysis is correct, but the power shift you think that will come from it won't happen. I just don't see CN being a game anymore where the alliance with the highest NS dominates it. Instead its about who has the most diplomatic power. Even if NPO is the number one alliance when they leave terms, they will need diplomatic power to back it up. I don't see that happening. I could be wrong, maybe Cortath and the rest of NPO has some tricks up their sleaves.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='22 March 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1269222459' post='2232667']
War is an expensive thing and expensive things deplete warchests quite quickly.
[/quote]

And when a warchest is depleted, [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=6641"]it's game over[/url]. 18 mil (or even 27) is not enough to keep a ZIed nation functional as a nuke turret for more than a few days. There is little that a huge banking alliance such as the NPO can do to help MK or TOP right now.

Even with wars as destructive such as this one (and this one is an anomaly, most wars last 2-3 rounds), the majority of strength that gets blown up is cheap infrastructure, and the average nation strength will continue to grow. The next war will be fought at slightly higher strength ranges. I'm not denying the usefulness of aid up to a certain point; however, it won't be enough to decide the fate of a war or enable NPO or any other large soft alliance to hold the balance of power. Until they somehow close the tech gap, they'll be nothing more than a moderately useful source of money to save some of the heavy hitters' slots in the aftermath of the next war.

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='22 March 2010 - 03:17 AM' timestamp='1269224213' post='2232684']
I could be wrong, maybe Cortath and the rest of NPO has some tricks up their sleaves.
[/quote]

Like what?

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='lebubu' date='21 March 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1269224349' post='2232690']
Like what?
[/quote]

As I said earlier, I don't think it will happen, but maybe they could have a treaty we wouldn't expect in the workings? Ordinance of the Orders would make for some delicious drama, then again, that's outlandish

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='lebubu' date='22 March 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1269224349' post='2232690']
And when a warchest is depleted, [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=6641"]it's game over[/url]. 18 mil (or even 27) is not enough to keep a ZIed nation functional as a nuke turret for more than a few days. There is little that a huge banking alliance such as the NPO can do to help MK or TOP right now.

Even with wars as destructive such as this one (and this one is an anomaly, most wars last 2-3 rounds), the majority of strength that gets blown up is cheap infrastructure, and the average nation strength will continue to grow. The next war will be fought at slightly higher strength ranges. I'm not denying the usefulness of aid up to a certain point; however, it won't be enough to decide the fate of a war or enable NPO or any other large soft alliance to hold the balance of power.[u] Until they somehow close the tech gap[/u], they'll be nothing more than a moderately useful source of money to save some of the heavy hitters' slots in the aftermath of the next war.



Like what?
[/quote]
(OOC: Post underlined for the point I am answering)

They do not have to do anything, all they have to do is sit on the sidelines for another month or three and let TOP & G&G keep lobbing nukes at each other. Then the tech gap will be closed. And the way this war is shaping up right now I would probably predict that TOP's warchests will run dry some time in early to mid June at the earliest.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Qaianna]

[quote name='lebubu' date='21 March 2010 - 10:27 AM' timestamp='1269185230' post='2232154']
NPO is statistically incapable of becoming a threat anytime soon.
[/quote]
Dear sir, I think there are other things one can do than use statistics and become a threat. I doubt the Order wishes to do either for now.

[quote name='lebubu' date='21 March 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1269224349' post='2232690']
And when a warchest is depleted, [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=6641"]it's game over[/url]. 18 mil (or even 27) is not enough to keep a ZIed nation functional as a nuke turret for more than a few days. There is little that a huge banking alliance such as the NPO can do to help MK or TOP right now.

Even with wars as destructive such as this one (and this one is an anomaly, most wars last 2-3 rounds), the majority of strength that gets blown up is cheap infrastructure, and the average nation strength will continue to grow. The next war will be fought at slightly higher strength ranges. I'm not denying the usefulness of aid up to a certain point; however, it won't be enough to decide the fate of a war or enable NPO or any other large soft alliance to hold the balance of power. Until they somehow close the tech gap, they'll be nothing more than a moderately useful source of money to save some of the heavy hitters' slots in the aftermath of the next war.



Like what?
[/quote]
'Source of money' for someone who, say, just got pounded hard in a war. Who'd want to hang out with THAT lot for rebuilding? All they'd want is, say, 50 technology every so often. About every ten days, perhaps. What's this about a technology gap?

Again, they're not kings, and they're the first to admit it. What they can be is kingmakers. It remains to be seen if they have certain people they'd like to do business with once they get the chance.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]And when a warchest is depleted, it's game over. 18 mil (or even 27) is not enough to keep a ZIed nation functional as a nuke turret for more than a few days[/quote]
That nation's total bills are something like 400k/day, or $4m per 10 days. A full aid drop is quite enough to provide a nuke a day for deserving opponents.

[OOC: Congratulations on driving several people out of the game. What makes it 'game over' is being beaten down for months by a superior force.]

[lebubu]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='22 March 2010 - 04:40 AM' timestamp='1269229236' post='2232794']
(OOC: Post underlined for the point I am answering)

They do not have to do anything, all they have to do is sit on the sidelines for another month or three and let TOP & G&G keep lobbing nukes at each other. Then the tech gap will be closed. And the way this war is shaping up right now I would probably predict that TOP's warchests will run dry some time in early to mid June at the earliest.
[/quote]

What are you basing your predictions on?

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1269260654' post='2233093']
That nation's total bills are something like 400k/day, or $4m per 10 days. A full aid drop is quite enough to provide a nuke a day for deserving opponents.

[OOC: Congratulations on driving several people out of the game. What makes it 'game over' is being beaten down for months by a superior force.]
[/quote]

Buying to 1k infra every day costs 3mil. Add the cost of two nukes to that, the fact that he's likely fighting 2-3 guys with SDIs, the cost of daily defeat alerts/ground attack defeats and you'll see how the 18/27 mil can't last longer than 3-4 days and that the odds of actually hitting your opponents with nukes are rather slim.

OOC: Maybe they should accept peace before they lose any more nations to deletions, no?

[sethb]

[quote name='Cortath' date='22 March 2010 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1269220693' post='2232629']
I thought you would have been smart enough not to post about these things, at this point, sethb.

What happened to your alliance by the way? What were they called? It's been hard to send reparations to them recently.
[/quote]
I thought you would be able to avoid taking irrelevant snipes and actually respond to what I said, Cortath.

If you must know their government only finished plans that had been started in March of '09.

Edited March 22, 2010 by sethb

[neneko]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='22 March 2010 - 04:40 AM' timestamp='1269229236' post='2232794']
And the way this war is shaping up right now I would probably predict that TOP's warchests will run dry some time in early to mid June at the earliest.
[/quote]
Even though your prediction contradicts the info we got from spy reports I'll take your word for it. You seem to know what you're talking about.

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1269260654' post='2233093']
That nation's total bills are something like 400k/day, or $4m per 10 days. A full aid drop is quite enough to provide a nuke a day for deserving opponents.
[/quote]
You need 1k infra to buy nukes and who exactly will send the aforementioned aid drops when TOP is all out of WCs?

[Bob Janova]

If they're really all out of warchest then it's about time (or, in fact, beyond time) that you offered them a fair peace settlement. The fact that you haven't done so after almost two months is exactly why your side is where the label 'neo-Hegemony' is best applied. However, that line of discussion is following on from the hypothetical 'what could NPO do in a war'.

You don't have to rebuy every day ... and I doubt all 1000 infra is completely demolished every day, either. The money lost in DAs (these nations will all be turtling so there won't be GAs isn't relevant if you manage the timing of accepting aid well, as you won't have cash on hand. Your effectiveness is certainly reduced as your full military rebuy cost is more than the $1.8m/day you can get, but it isn't 'game over' (OOC: except your enemies are making CN not be fun any more).

And, as I said to Neneko, I'm sure they will accept peace as soon as you give a fair offer. It is C&G which has kept the war going for pretty much the entire length of this front, and it continues to be today.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 March 2010 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1269273823' post='2233237']
If they're really all out of warchest then it's about time (or, in fact, beyond time) that you offered them a fair peace settlement. The fact that you haven't done so after almost two months is exactly why your side is where the label 'neo-Hegemony' is best applied. However, that line of discussion is following on from the hypothetical 'what could NPO do in a war'.

You don't have to rebuy every day ... and I doubt all 1000 infra is completely demolished every day, either. The money lost in DAs (these nations will all be turtling so there won't be GAs isn't relevant if you manage the timing of accepting aid well, as you won't have cash on hand. Your effectiveness is certainly reduced as your full military rebuy cost is more than the $1.8m/day you can get, but it isn't 'game over' (OOC: except your enemies are making CN not be fun any more).

And, as I said to Neneko, I'm sure they will accept peace as soon as you give a fair offer. It is C&G which has kept the war going for pretty much the entire length of this front, and it continues to be today.
[/quote]
TOP deserves to get out of the position they put themselves into themselves, instead of being given mercy where mercy is not due. It is only just that they learn this lesson proper.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 March 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1269273823' post='2233237']
If they're really all out of war chest then it's about time (or, in fact, beyond time) that you offered them a fair peace settlement.
[/quote]

The thing is that when war chests will end is quite nebulous. The Elites can probably go on forever, if you had 75+ days of collection saved up at 10,000 infra, that goes a long way at 1,000 infra. The non elite alliances however, I don't think would have those kinds of war chests. Perhaps TSO and TOP can keep those alliance afloat, maybe not. If they can't then I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 waves of surrenders. The non elites first, and the elites a good time after.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]TOP deserves to get out of the position they put themselves into themselves[/quote]
Perhaps so, but there are limits on what conditions it is reasonable for the winners to put on losers in war, and if they have actually depleted TOP's warchests, then they can't even use the 'but they're still a threat zomg' excuse any more.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 March 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1269276749' post='2233286']
Perhaps so, but there are limits on what conditions it is reasonable for the winners to put on losers in war, and if they have actually depleted TOP's warchests, then they can't even use the 'but they're still a threat zomg' excuse any more.
[/quote]Perhaps so, but history will determine the degree of reasonability, not propagandists on these channels of communication.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Solaris' date='22 March 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1269277934' post='2233296']
Perhaps so, but history will determine the degree of reasonability, not propagandists on these channels of communication.
[/quote]

Oh ho, but the propagandists on these channels often determine the perception of history, do they not?

[neneko]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 March 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1269273823' post='2233237']
If they're really all out of warchest then it's about time (or, in fact, beyond time) that you offered them a fair peace settlement. The fact that you haven't done so after almost two months is exactly why your side is where the label 'neo-Hegemony' is best applied. However, that line of discussion is following on from the hypothetical 'what could NPO do in a war'.

You don't have to rebuy every day ... and I doubt all 1000 infra is completely demolished every day, either. The money lost in DAs (these nations will all be turtling so there won't be GAs isn't relevant if you manage the timing of accepting aid well, as you won't have cash on hand. Your effectiveness is certainly reduced as your full military rebuy cost is more than the $1.8m/day you can get, but it isn't 'game over' (OOC: except your enemies are making CN not be fun any more).

And, as I said to Neneko, I'm sure they will accept peace as soon as you give a fair offer. It is C&G which has kept the war going for pretty much the entire length of this front, and it continues to be today.
[/quote]
Our side bob, our side

They have been offered very fair terms. In fact I think those were made public by someone. Forgot who.

The rest of your post just display a lack of knowledge of how war works that I didn't expect from you. Money is destroyed even when turtling. They need to rebuy infra every day to be able to buy their two nukes which is a bare minimum to even hit a single target once a day in the long run if they have a SDI. 1k infra is easily destroyed in a day if you're outnumbered.

OOC: could you please stop using ooc arguments in every post? At some point someone will be dumb enough to respond and then we'll get a whole new line of discussion that's nothing but ooc tags. If you want to make a thread about how we're ruining the game (wasn't this \m/s job? way to let others pick up the slack guys!) that's better suited for the ooc board.