Unimportant Announcement

[Trinite]

[quote name='Coursca' date='22 February 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1266815866' post='2196361']
Of course it doesn't make it alright, but again crossing the border one way does not, in my mind, justify crossing it back in the other direction. Being the bigger man has its intrinsic benefits. As we're seeing here, taking a swing at someone over a childish comment, while the anger is understandable entirely, doesn't always end well for the one doing the swinging, in my experience.
[/quote]
I agree, and while I'm sure pissing off our gov didn't help the negotiations, they were not the justification. They were indicative of the general asshattery we encountered at just about every turn in this war, and that trend certainly did have an effect on our decision to give reps. I'm not sure everyone involved had the same reason for demanding reps. I know for me it was their conduct during the previous peace talks where we were sitting in a peace talk channel with them when we put up the terms and heard nothing from them until after they had posted a new topic blaming the entire thing on Sparta. That's classless, and for me the way way an alliance conducts itself in war matters. I know others felt coming in defense of an obvious aggressor was not a defensive war. Still others felt that by offering a completely defeated foe that snubbed us at every turn off scotch free, we would set a bad precedent. Some combination of that and probably a bunch more I'm forgetting. Whatever we thought, we all agreed that Legion deserved to pay reps. Probably more than we made them pay, but hey we're not MK (you're welcome neneko)

[Augusta Antonia]

ZOMG!! y0 mama comments on CN??? On IRC??? Say it isn't so!!! What is Bob coming to? Seriously, "noU" and "I #%@&ed your Mom" etc are probably the 2 most commonly used comments on IRC. To take either (in this case the Mom comment) as OOC is just ridiculous. Get a helmet...really...

[mhawk]

[quote name='pezstar' date='21 February 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1266816548' post='2196403']
STA never "jumped sides" in the war. We fought in defense of our allies in NpO when they were attacked. When our allies in MK requested our assistance in defending them against an attack, we obliged them, per our treaty obligation. I'm not sure how honoring our treaties can be construed as dishonorable, as you are attempting to do here, but please do enlighten me as to how STA's honoring our treaties with our allies is dishonorable and somehow negates the opinions of those amongst of who have chosen to speak up about what we perceive to be an injustice.
[/quote]
Oh man this is going to turn into a real cluster of a thread

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Aurion' date='22 February 2010 - 12:21 AM' timestamp='1266816115' post='2196377']
The [i]value[/i] is 1.2 billion at 3/100 market rate. If it actually costs them 1.2 billion in losses to send it out though, that'll be a somewhat disappointing level of incompetence.

Assuming competent tech sellers sending it out (~1.6m per 100 starting from 0), the minimum [i]cost[/i] for Legion to pay them is 640 million.

If they aid their sellers who then send the tech out on the next cycle, the difference would end up in the sellers' pockets.

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Edit: Grammar and clarity.
[/quote]

Yeah you're right. I was wrong in my initial calculations of 112 billion. Forgot to divide by 100 .

But regardless, my opinion still stands. Legion came in because of their treaty obligations, and stayed in due to their treaty obligations. To request ~1 billion in reps in ludicrous for honoring treaties.

[Heft]

[quote name='Caliph' date='21 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1266816649' post='2196408']
Were you always as vocal against war profiteering, or is a recent change since Hegemony was defeated in Karma? This is a legitimate question, as I am curious.
[/quote]
I'm not necessarily against it now, as I'm not making any value judgments. I just find the current justifications and actions to be interesting, especially given past statements and history.

[Kortal]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='22 February 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1266816595' post='2196405']
They were for it before they were against it.

War profiteering is a long held tradition here. Sparta isn't the first alliance to try to extract some profit from a war, they won't be the last.
[/quote]
Ah yes, Sparta's profit will be enormous when they receive that 20k tech after a nuclear war lasting what, a week and a half?

And people wonder how TORN sank so low...

[Ian Dox]

[quote name='Segovia' date='21 February 2010 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1266816398' post='2196392']
Where are the haters against my alliance...
[/quote]

Nothing but love man...

[Kortal]

[quote name='pezstar' date='22 February 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1266816548' post='2196403']
STA never "jumped sides" in the war. We fought in defense of our allies in NpO when they were attacked. When our allies in MK requested our assistance in defending them against an attack, we obliged them, per our treaty obligation. I'm not sure how honoring our treaties can be construed as dishonorable, as you are attempting to do here, but please do enlighten me as to how STA's honoring our treaties with our allies is dishonorable and somehow negates the opinions of those amongst of who have chosen to speak up about what we perceive to be an injustice.
[/quote]
Pezstar I can't get into STA's antics and their war jumping in this thread because it would be way off topic. [i]Please[/i] stick with Legion's surrender

[janax]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='21 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1266816261' post='2196385']
I certainly hope you're not inferring we somehow supported those remarks.
[/quote]

By fighting on that side you are supporting them just as much as Legion is supporting IRON and TOP's pre-emptive strike during the NpO vs \m/ war.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='22 February 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1266816595' post='2196405']
They were for it before they were against it.

War profiteering is a long held tradition here. Sparta isn't the first alliance to try to extract some profit from a war, they won't be the last.
[/quote]

Do you know the actual definition of profiteering?

–noun1.a person who seeks or exacts exorbitant [b]profits[/b], esp. through the sale of scarce or rationed goods.
Now if I may, please redirect your attention to the bolded word. Going to war is not profitable unless you extract an absolutely unheard of amount amount of reps.

[Mussolandia]

[quote name='Kortal' date='22 February 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1266817009' post='2196442']
Pezstar I can't get into STA's antics and their war jumping in this thread because it would be way off topic. [i]Please[/i] stick with Legion's surrender
[/quote]

It's kind of hard when you bring it up.

[Bilrow]

Good luck on getting peace, Legion.

[me]Bilrow[/me] wipes a tear from his eye.

Sparta is all grown up and making me proud. It makes me heart beat with pride to see you doing hegemonic things. They grow up so quickly.

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='21 February 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1266817136' post='2196453']
Do you know the actual definition of profiteering?

–noun1.a person who seeks or exacts exorbitant [b]profits[/b], esp. through the sale of scarce or rationed goods.
Now if I may, please redirect your attention to the bolded word. Going to war is not profitable unless you extract an absolutely unheard of amount amount of reps.
[/quote]
It is not profitable in absolute terms, but can be quite profitable in terms of relative power amongst the major powers.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='janax' date='22 February 2010 - 12:37 AM' timestamp='1266817045' post='2196443']
By fighting on that side you are supporting them just as much as Legion is supporting IRON and TOP's pre-emptive strike during the NpO vs \m/ war.
[/quote]

Yes, we knew \m/ were going to make those remarks, in fact we planned it all.

[Heft]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='21 February 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1266817136' post='2196453']
Do you know the actual definition of profiteering?

–noun1.a person who seeks or exacts exorbitant [b]profits[/b], esp. through the sale of scarce or rationed goods.
Now if I may, please redirect your attention to the bolded word. Going to war is not profitable unless you extract an absolutely unheard of amount amount of reps.
[/quote]
You seem to miss the point. The damages incurred up to the time of surrender are little more than sunk costs. Reparations are almost universally a tool of extracting a little bit more juice from your opponent. War profiteering may not be the perfect phrase to describe them, but it does seem to be the best.

When you make up ad hoc justifications for taking reparations, and when those justifications become confused even, and when those justifications actually contradict the general understanding of how wars are to be conducted, then you're finding reasons to take resources, nothing more.

To the victor the spoils and all that, and if the surrendering party agrees to it then fine. But they are spoils, and pretending they aren't rotten doesn't change that.

[Kortal]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='22 February 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1266817209' post='2196456']
It's kind of hard when you bring it up.
[/quote]
Listen guy, I mentioned it in passing in a long, on-topic post.

Perhaps had she responded to the entire thing and brought that up as an aside we could deal with it on its own, but alas and alack

[Mussolandia]

[quote name='Kortal' date='22 February 2010 - 05:43 AM' timestamp='1266817399' post='2196471']
Listen guy, I mentioned it in passing in a long, on-topic post.

Perhaps had she responded to the entire thing and brought that up as an aside we could deal with it on its own, but alas and alack
[/quote]

Don't call me guy, buddy.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='22 February 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1266816840' post='2196425']
Yeah you're right. I was wrong in my initial calculations of 112 billion. Forgot to divide by 100 .

But regardless, my opinion still stands. Legion came in because of their treaty obligations, and stayed in due to their treaty obligations. To request ~1 billion in reps in ludicrous for honoring treaties.
[/quote]

Eh, I think the reps were more requested due to the way things unfolded while there was actual shooting going on as opposed to the method of Legion's entry.

I wouldn't know though. If I guess correctly even different members of Sparta's government had different reasons for doing so, and the governments and individuals of the other alliances had their own reasons as well. So I doubt anyone's going to get a definitive answer they can point to and say "[i]THIS[/i] is why they asked for reps!", heh.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Aurion

[Libera]

[quote name='Bilrow' date='22 February 2010 - 05:40 AM' timestamp='1266817220' post='2196457']
Good luck on getting peace, Legion.

[me]Bilrow[/me] wipes a tear from his eye.

Sparta is all grown up and making me proud. It makes me heart beat with pride to see you doing hegemonic things. They grow up so quickly.
[/quote]


As opposed to defending an aggressive side during a war and expecting nothing? Then again, I guess we were willing to let them walk away how many times? We were turned down how many times?

How many Hegemonic alliances gave out white peace in the many wars? How many times was it even offered to an alliance you were beating?

That said, would you like a tissue, Grandpa?

[Pearl]

[quote name='Bilrow' date='21 February 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1266817220' post='2196457']
Good luck on getting peace, Legion.

[me]Bilrow[/me] wipes a tear from his eye.

Sparta is all grown up and making me proud. It makes me heart beat with pride to see you doing hegemonic things. They grow up so quickly.
[/quote]

I hope you were laughing when you wrote that. I was laughing when I read it. xD


obligatory o/ peace

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Heft' date='22 February 2010 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1266817382' post='2196468']
You seem to miss the point. The damages incurred up to the time of surrender are little more than sunk costs. Reparations are almost universally a tool of extracting a little bit more juice from your opponent. War profiteering may not be the perfect phrase to describe them, but it does seem to be the best.

When you make up ad hoc justifications for taking reparations, and when those justifications become confused even, and when those justifications actually contradict the general understanding of how wars are to be conducted, then you're finding reasons to take resources, nothing more.

To the victor the spoils and all that, and if the surrendering party agrees to it then fine. But they are spoils, and pretending they aren't rotten doesn't change that.
[/quote]
It's hard to feel sympathy for the people who were like "nah man, take your white peace and walk".

Edited February 22, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Strykewolf]

I guess I should say... 'Congrats.'



[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif[/img]

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Libera' date='22 February 2010 - 05:44 AM' timestamp='1266817487' post='2196479']
As opposed to defending an aggressive side during a war and expecting nothing? Then again, I guess we were willing to let them walk away how many times? We were turned down how many times?

How many Hegemonic alliances gave out white peace in the many wars? How many times was it even offered to an alliance you were beating?

That said, would you like a tissue, Grandpa?
[/quote]

Again a lot of these "hegemonic" alliances paid massive reps for their "crimes". I see you and a few others unpunished though for your part in said "crimes"

[Cooldude247]

I didn't get too many legion nations because I was on a different front. But the one I did encounter was very respectful. Congrats on getting peace legion!

[quote name='Pearl' date='22 February 2010 - 05:45 AM' timestamp='1266817512' post='2196482']
I hope you were laughing when you wrote that. I was laughing when I read it. xD
[/quote]
haha I was laughing pretty hard too XD

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Heft' date='22 February 2010 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1266817382' post='2196468']
You seem to miss the point. The damages incurred up to the time of surrender are little more than sunk costs. Reparations are almost universally a tool of extracting a little bit more juice from your opponent. War profiteering may not be the perfect phrase to describe them, but it does seem to be the best.

When you make up ad hoc justifications for taking reparations, and when those justifications become confused even, and when those justifications actually contradict the general understanding of how wars are to be conducted, then you're finding reasons to take resources, nothing more.

To the victor the spoils and all that, and if the surrendering party agrees to it then fine. But they are spoils, and pretending they aren't rotten doesn't change that.
[/quote]

You're assuming sunk cost is inherent whereas the most profitable in terms of resources would be to avoid as much war as possible. War profiteering is definitely not the term to use if he meant different.