Concerning the War of Aggression against C&G

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='08 March 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1268106029' post='2218773']
Dude he is trying to be cool. Don't blow his spot up man.


Finally, something with substance. I can understand this as you present it respectfully with interesting rhetoric, the question that surfaces is: When does it become excessive? Though these terms are payable now (For argument sake, we'll just agree), lets say TOP gets murdered down to 2m NS..are these terms still going to be the same terms? because the whole "it'll take 61 days," now turns into 7+ months if you get what I am saying. I am just wondering what your stance is pertaining to socio-economical status.
[/quote]
No, the amounts would not stay at the same levels, if I were solely making them. How much they would go down is up in the air as I don't know any specifics of member retention at that point, how much tech they've moved off AA, how much tech they still have on AA, etc, not to mention the states of our own alliances at such a point in time.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='08 March 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1268106456' post='2218782']
Unless TOP nations start getting bill locked, continued war doesn't really affect how long it would take them to pay the reparations.
[/quote]
Well, I am sure many will be as CnG has avidly stated their [TOP] war chests aren't impressive (Not arguing them, I am not fighting TOP like they are so they should know), but other factors come into play such as people leaving Bob and leaving TOP as well. Those members will only dwindle down.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='08 March 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1268106625' post='2218786']
Well, I am sure many will be as CnG has avidly stated their [TOP] war chests aren't impressive (Not arguing them, I am not fighting TOP like they are so they should know), but other factors come into play such as people leaving Bob and leaving TOP as well. Those members will only dwindle down.
[/quote]

Even without a warchest, you can almost run solely on plundered cash and daily collections when your bills are that low.

Anyways, I agree that if TOP's member count is significantly reduced then the reparation figures should be adjusted.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='08 March 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1268106839' post='2218790']
Even without a warchest, you can almost run solely on plundered cash and daily collections when your bills are that low.

Anyways, I agree that if TOP's member count is significantly reduced then the reparation figures should be adjusted.
[/quote]
That's called haggling and negotiation. Apparently I and those who agree don't understand what negotiations are.

With all stupidity aside, many in CnG have openly stated what you have, or stated they'd be open to more 'realistic' terms presented by TOP irc, so we'll just see.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='08 March 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1268107047' post='2218796']
That's called haggling and negotiation. Apparently I and those who agree don't understand what negotiations are.

With all stupidity aside, many in CnG have openly stated what you have, or stated they'd be open to more 'realistic' terms presented by TOP irc, so we'll just see.
[/quote]
Yeah, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying "WE WILL NEVER CHANGE OUR TERMS!"

I'm just saying that we're not going to change them just because some people think negotiation means we must have highballed on the initial offer.

[maguko]

[quote name='lebubu' date='08 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1268061685' post='2218007']
In case people haven't figured it out already, maguko was trying to scandalize the visitors of these halls - we never requested 500k tech from TOP alone, nor have we ever considered asking for one million tech.
[/quote]

This. You guys are pretty dense. Where is the :notgov: emote on here?

[flak attack]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='08 March 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1268106839' post='2218790']
Even without a warchest, you can almost run solely on plundered cash and daily collections when your bills are that low.
[/quote]
You can't rely on collection when you're being nuked and it's hard to win battle with only 1k infra.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' date='08 March 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1268108452' post='2218822']
Yeah, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying "WE WILL NEVER CHANGE OUR TERMS!"

I'm just saying that we're not going to change them just because some people think negotiation means we must have highballed on the initial offer.
[/quote]

You don't think it was a high ball? I understand taking a hard line position on terms if that's what you want but lets at least be realistic about it.

I'm not disputing they should pony up, they did a preemptive strike after all, but if you don't think 500k tech is high balling it... Dude.

I saw the terms and my first thought was "those will never get paid". Terms have to be better than continued war to be appealing, and its pretty damn sure TOP and co would rather keep nuking you than ship off half a mil tech and if it drags out to where they can't keep nuking you they won't have 500k tech left to ship out. At this point they'd rather drag you down with them than turn into a 10,000 slot tech farm for you.

2-3 hundred thousand while still very large would have at least gotten people thinking, 500k would (and did) get rejected out of hand. So yea to me the opening offer says either "highball" or "we'd rather keep nuking you too".

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='09 March 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1268111621' post='2218877']
You don't think it was a high ball? I understand taking a hard line position on terms if that's what you want but lets at least be realistic about it.

I'm not disputing they should pony up, they did a preemptive strike after all, but if you don't think 500k tech is high balling it... Dude.

I saw the terms and my first thought was "those will never get paid". Terms have to be better than continued war to be appealing, and its pretty damn sure TOP and co would rather keep nuking you than ship off half a mil tech and if it drags out to where they can't keep nuking you they won't have 500k tech left to ship out. At this point they'd rather drag you down with them than turn into a 10,000 slot tech farm for you.

2-3 hundred thousand while still very large would have at least gotten people thinking, 500k would (and did) get rejected out of hand. So yea to me the opening offer says either "highball" or "we'd rather keep nuking you too".
[/quote]

300K tech to the Complaints & Grievances Union. Up to 150K tech may be purchased by TOP from nations of other alliances at their discretion & coordination.
25K tech to Sparta.
7.5K tech and $105 Million to Dark Fist.
5K tech to The Brigade.
5K tech to The Resistance.
2.9K tech to Nemesis.

That's just about 200k tech directly from TOP.

We never asked for anywhere near 500k.

[Denial]

Why people keep mentioning 500k total technology as the reparations demanded from TOP is beyond me. The terms offered to TOP & co are in the public domain, so it is not as if the exact nature of the terms are a point of speculation and guess work. The peace settlement requires roughly 345k technology from TOP, with 300k to be dispersed amongst C&G alliances - as the alliances that first suffered the preemptive, aggressive attacks - and a further ~45k technology to be forwarded to other allied nations.


Edit: rsox beat me by a minute :negativeman:

Edited March 9, 2010 by Denial

[TypoNinja]

I was going off the terms listed [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=196&showentry=1401"]here[/url], and using the 'you' collectively, not as C&G specifically, but those still engaged in combat. Likewise the same, not TOP specifically, but those still fighting. Collectively that's over 500k tech.

Edited March 9, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='06 March 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1267888591' post='2215920']
Fark, the only alliance mentioned directly in the post I quoted, wasn't preemptively attacked. Also I didn't say anyone was being an aggressor.

I said that C&G are meatshielding for Fark. This is obvious, if you look at who's getting nuked and who's not, it's pretty much in line with who Fark wanted to see getting nuked in the rather famous leaked logs of a few months back.
[/quote]

Looks like Neutral Shoving was right in keeping Fark under their boots for as long as they did. Because now it's clear that Fark is the most manipulative alliance in the world and will soon take over if we don't keep them in check.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Emperor Marx

[Denial]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='09 March 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1268113048' post='2218899']
Looks like Neutral Shoving was right in keeping Fark under their boots for as long as they did. Because now it's clear that Fark is the most manipulative alliance in the world and will soon take over if we don't keep them in check.
[/quote]
This explains why LUE allegedly bankrolled Fark [img]http://thecastlehall.com/boards/Smileys/kickass/ms.gif[/img]

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Denial' date='09 March 2010 - 12:37 AM' timestamp='1268113323' post='2218909']
This explains why LUE allegedly bankrolled Fark [img]http://thecastlehall.com/boards/Smileys/kickass/ms.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Where does babyjesus fit in to all of this? He's GOONS scum, MK milcom, and now FARK meatshield.

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='09 March 2010 - 06:31 AM' timestamp='1268112990' post='2218898']
I was going off the terms listed [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=196&showentry=1401"]here[/url], and using the 'you' collectively, not as C&G specifically, but those still engaged in combat. Likewise the same, not TOP specifically, but those still fighting. Collectively that's over 500k tech.
[/quote]
keep in mind that IRON is a pretty significant alliance as well.
If they asked the ~200 TOP members to pay 500k it would be very high. But they didn't, instead they asked for a high amount and gave concessions regarding where the tech must come from (meaning they may buy it off AA for a big part). Considering the start of this war frankly i consider that fair, but obviously i am not in TOP and don't have to pay it.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Tulafaras' date='09 March 2010 - 06:06 AM' timestamp='1268133085' post='2219147']
keep in mind that IRON is a pretty significant alliance as well.
If they asked the ~200 TOP members to pay 500k it would be very high. But they didn't, instead they asked for a high amount and gave concessions regarding where the tech must come from (meaning they may buy it off AA for a big part). Considering the start of this war frankly i consider that fair, but obviously i am not in TOP and don't have to pay it.
[/quote]
Would you pay those terms or would you keep fighting?

Not trying to bait a specific answer, just wishing to hear your opinion if they were honestly offered to you.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' date='08 March 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1268113481' post='2218913']
Where does babyjesus fit in to all of this? He's GOONS scum, MK milcom, and now FARK meatshield.
[/quote]Archon was GOONS scum too, we have uncovered a conspiracy throguh the ages

[raasaa]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='09 March 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1268158672' post='2219440']
Would you pay those terms or would you keep fighting?

Not trying to bait a specific answer, just wishing to hear your opinion if they were honestly offered to you.
[/quote]
If its 500k tech for the entire bunch of alliances that are still fighting, that is TOP, IRON, TORN, TSO and DAWN, then i would take it. The tough part would be finding the sellers to pump with aid and ensure that these sellers dispatch the tech on schedule. Given the fact that they have allies like Legion ,UPN etc with a LOT of potential tech sellers, this is doable.

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='09 March 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1268158672' post='2219440']
Would you pay those terms or would you keep fighting?

Not trying to bait a specific answer, just wishing to hear your opinion if they were honestly offered to you.
[/quote]
personally? I'd pay any terms which i could send from my nation within 10 aidwaves in the situation that TOP is in. I paid after the UJW even if all we did in that war was to follow our MK treaty. I wasn't happy about it, but compared to eternal war what choice did we have?

TOP seems to be in a similar position. They took a major gamble and lost badly, now their choices are to pay or to bleed. Frankly in that situation i'd take any terms i could reasonably pay off within 6 months as an alliance (meaning not calculated with 100% slot usage, because let's be honest that can almost never be achieved).

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Tulafaras' date='09 March 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1268179553' post='2219909']
personally? I'd pay any terms which i could send from my nation within 10 aidwaves in the situation that TOP is in. I paid after the UJW even if all we did in that war was to follow our MK treaty. I wasn't happy about it, but compared to eternal war what choice did we have?

TOP seems to be in a similar position. They took a major gamble and lost badly, now their choices are to pay or to bleed. Frankly in that situation i'd take any terms i could reasonably pay off within 6 months as an alliance (meaning not calculated with 100% slot usage, because let's be honest that can almost never be achieved).
[/quote]

Yea but with massive warchests they can give as good as they are getting. Holding a prepared alliance at war for an extended period of time is not cheap, even if you are winning. Nukes is nukes.

As long as they can dish out damage comparable to what they are taking I doubt they are going to surrender under terms that large. TOP's counteroffer shows us a low end they'd end the war under, I think eventually we'll end up seeing something in the middle of those two numbers showing up.

[renegade4box]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='09 March 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1268189871' post='2220362']
Yea but with massive warchests they can give as good as they are getting. Holding a prepared alliance at war for an extended period of time is not cheap, even if you are winning. Nukes is nukes.

As long as they can dish out damage comparable to what they are taking I doubt they are going to surrender under terms that large. TOP's counteroffer shows us a low end they'd end the war under, I think eventually we'll end up seeing something in the middle of those two numbers showing up.
[/quote]

I guess it's a good thing for us then that the only stat we really care about keeps going up for us. Hell, I'm going to break into the top 50 within a week.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='raasaa' date='09 March 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1268163344' post='2219511']
If its 500k tech for the entire bunch of alliances that are still fighting, that is TOP, IRON, TORN, TSO and DAWN, then i would take it. The tough part would be finding the sellers to pump with aid and ensure that these sellers dispatch the tech on schedule. Given the fact that they have allies like Legion ,UPN etc with a LOT of potential tech sellers, this is doable.
[/quote]
Uhh.. UPN is allied to the alliances still fighting how exactly?

[Lenex]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='09 March 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1268196119' post='2220541']
Uhh.. UPN is allied to the alliances still fighting how exactly?
[/quote]

Well they've got an MDoAP with us. If thats what you were asking, if not, sorry if I misunderstood.. Err UPN does.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Lenex

[raasaa]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='09 March 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1268196119' post='2220541']
Uhh.. UPN is allied to the alliances still fighting how exactly?
[/quote]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=6263"]ToA with IRON[/url] if u want to go over technicalities

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lenex' date='09 March 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1268196348' post='2220551']
Well they've got an MDoAP with us. If thats what you were asking, if not, sorry if I misunderstood.. Err UPN does.
[/quote]
Yeah, I meant on the other side

[quote name='raasaa' date='10 March 2010 - 02:32 AM' timestamp='1268206667' post='2220749']
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=6263"]ToA with IRON[/url] if u want to go over technicalities
[/quote]
Yeah, that's true. Most people mean "ally" to mean "MDP+" though.